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How are these Great Beings explained?

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I said IF. It was just speculation. The same applies equally to me. If I’m wrong I’m unlucky too. So my point is if I’m wrong and reincarnation is truth then I’m depriving myself of something very special right?.

.
There's nothing special about reincarnation. Moksha, maybe.

So your belief now is just speculation? You're just guessing?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I took refuge in the lineage that "waits" for maitreya. No. Maitreya coming does nothing. Many Buddhas came in between Sakyamuni. They all taught the same Dhamma.

The glories kings and chariots wear out
The body too undergoes decay
the Dhamma of the good does not decay
So the good proclaim with the good

Maitrya and all buddhas and bodhisattvas have the same message and same dhamma. You can call him the promised one and relate him to christ. He is not the promised One. Many buddhist sects dont even believe in Meitreya coming back.

This is again bahai assuming they know the suttas better than buddhists (all buddhists) themselves. Also, its saying the suttas are false because it says the message stays the same just many buddhas came thought eons of time periods to expound it.

What do you think Maiteya will change in the Dhamma?

Hinduism is another one. How can Krishna come when he is already here?

Oooh. With Buddhism its The Buddha, The Dhamma, The Sangha. Meitreya is not part of the three jewels.

I respect your views on the matter so I can’t really add to what you said except to say I love reading the Words and Sayings of the Buddha. There is much I don’t know, more than the little I do , but what I have learned about Buddhism I love.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
But it’s good you tell me these things so I can try and be more aware and try harder not to insult you. But I never set out to be insultive although I likely need to be more selective how I express myself.

It's not you personally that's insulting, it's your faith system. You're just being a Baha'i' and following that. It's the words of your 'manifestations' and his sons that directly or indirectly put down other faiths. There is no way a person can say, 'I am the best' without insinuating all the others are inferiour. That's the nature of competitive Abrahamic 'us versus them' religions. I feel fortunate not to be part of that.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I respect your views on the matter so I can’t really add to what you said except you say I love reading the Wirds and Sayings of the Buddha. There is much I don’t know, more than the little info, but what I have learned about Buddhism I love.

I actually do want to know what maitreya will change when he returns?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
There's nothing special about reincarnation. Moksha, maybe.

So your belief now is just speculation? You're just guessing?

Hindu Moksha is liberation from the self? Or detachment from earthly things to the point of ones spiritual self always in control?self mastery? Or self forgetfulness? Or a state of bliss and heaven?

I think Hinduism and Buddhism view it differently. Baha’is understand it differently but I think we might have something similar although not identical or in the same words. We have a condition of emancipation but it’s called Certitude. It’s a transcendental state attained by fulfilling certain spiritual requirements. Once attained one is born into a final transcendental consciousness which revolves around God’s will always. It can be attained while on this earth.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Hindu Moksha is liberation from the self?

Moksha is release from the cycle of reincarnation. Nothing more nothing less. It happens to the soul after nirvikalpa samadhi (enlightenment, Self-realisation) . After that there are two views, both having the soul evolve some more in other realms. One (dualism) maintains that the soul keeps it's identity, and is forever close to God (Gaudiya Vaishnavism and others). The other (monism) believes that the soul loses all individuality and totally merges with God. (advaita Vedanta and others) Personally, I'm a monist. Saiva Siddhanta has both monist and dualist schools.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Some people do. Some people don't. If a Baha'i' did remember his past life, he would repress that, because it goes against the dogma. If he spoke out about it, he would risk losing his membership. So it would be hard to tell really if a Baha'i' ever remembered his past life.

Hindus, on the other hand, at least those that did remember, would have no problem at all with it, because it isn't against Hinduism. Still, most Hindus rarely even reflect on it, because its such common knowledge.

I would think if a Baha'i did remember that he had a past life, he would have recognized that Baha'i religion is not the truth, but Hinduism is, as Baha'i Faith teaches that, literal reincarnation is not true. I do not see, why in that case, he would have any fear of loosing his membership; perhaps he would prefer to become Hindu, rather than keeping a Religion that teaches reincarnation is untrue. In that case, we should see some Baha'is convert to Hinduism, letting others know its reason. But being a Baha'i for some decades, I never heard such a thing.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I actually do want to know what maitreya will change when he returns?

What needs to be understood which I don’t think is clear is that the practice of the Dhamma will gradually decline after Buddha passed away.

Maitreya will come to renew the practice of the Dhamma as well as bring His laws and teachings for this age.

A Buddhist monk here explains that the Dhamma is gradually to disappear in 5 stages. I just put it here so you can see monks are well aware that the practice of the Dhamma will decline. That’s 5,000 years.


Buddhism in Translations - § 102. The Buddhist Apocalypse.

So Buddhist Dhamma will need to be renewed for our times. It’s like we have the Bible so why does Christ need to return? It’s because of the lack of practice not that the Bible has been actually lost physically.

English translation of DN 26, “The Lion-roar on the Turning of the Wheel”
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I would think if a Baha'i did remember that he had a past life, he would have recognized that Baha'i religion is not the truth, but Hinduism is, as Baha'i Faith teaches that, literal reincarnation is not true. I do not see, why in that case, he would have any fear of loosing his membership; perhaps he would prefer to become Hindu, rather than keeping a Religion that teaches reincarnation is untrue. In that case, we should see some Baha'is convert to Hinduism, letting others know its reason. But being a Baha'i for some decades, I never heard such a thing.

You lose a lot when you convert. It would make sense to not convert. We had a Catholic friend way back in high school who started doing yoga, and exploring Hinduism. Although she really felt that she was in tune with everything we were doing (becoming Hindu) she knew that it would just be way too hard for her. it would hurt her Catholic mother, it'd hurt her Catholic friends. So she decided not to continue. I've given lots of people tours of our temple, and they looked really interested, and then they never come back.

Conversion should be some really important decision, not some signing of a card after a couple of weeks. Too many people convert half-heartedly to lots of faiths, and regret it right away. Religion jumping is almost a thing these days.

I can't see any Baha'i' talking about it much, if they were convinced of Baha'i'. If they did have an experience, it would be repressed pretty quickly I think, or they'd write it off as imagination. It helps to have a subconscious belief system that supports it. Although, if they did have a really dramatic experience, there would be many other choices besides Hinduism to switch too. We're not the only religion that believes in reincarnation. They could become SBNR easily, and be accepted. They could also just be quiet about it, like a gay person might be.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
What needs to be understood which I don’t think is clear is that the practice of the Dhamma will gradually decline after Buddha passed away.

Maitreya will come to renew the practice of the Dhamma as well as bring His laws and teachings for this age.

A Buddhist monk here explains that the Dhamma is gradually to disappear in 5 stages. I just put it here so you can see monks are well aware that the practice of the Dhamma will decline. That’s 5,000 years.


Buddhism in Translations - § 102. The Buddhist Apocalypse.

So Buddhist Dhamma will need to be renewed for our times. It’s like we have the Bible so why does Christ need to return? It’s because of the lack of practice not that the Bible has been actually lost physically.

English translation of DN 26, “The Lion-roar on the Turning of the Wheel”

Im listening now. It sounds like People will stop believing in the Dhamma. "People who dont certify in nibanna anymore".

The "dhamma of the good" is independent of people. Thats attachment. "Teachers have not taught to practice to meet nivanna" (from the video)

Thats like saying god disappears because one day no know will believe in god. Nibanna isnt declining. He says people belief in it is declining. Maitreya like all buddhas will teach the same dhamma.

What is different about maitreya teachings that The Buddha never taught and that people will believe in The Buddha again?

Can you find the points in the suttas that says nibanna and kamma will die out? Its long so i read it after work only if you want to discuss it.

Here is another that talks about the people not the dhamma itself

 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
What needs to be understood which I don’t think is clear is that the practice of the Dhamma will gradually decline after Buddha passed away.

Maitreya will come to renew the practice of the Dhamma as well as bring His laws and teachings for this age.

A Buddhist monk here explains that the Dhamma is gradually to disappear in 5 stages. I just put it here so you can see monks are well aware that the practice of the Dhamma will decline. That’s 5,000 years.


Buddhism in Translations - § 102. The Buddhist Apocalypse.

So Buddhist Dhamma will need to be renewed for our times. It’s like we have the Bible so why does Christ need to return? It’s because of the lack of practice not that the Bible has been actually lost physically.

English translation of DN 26, “The Lion-roar on the Turning of the Wheel”

The glorious kings of chariots wear out
The Suttas/the teachings decay

The body too undergoes decay

Humans physical bodies as well

The Dhamma of the good does not decay

The message of good; compassion; etc does not decay

The good proclaims with the good
The Dhamma verifies it's own existence

Explanations of The Disappearances of the Dhamma as compared to the suttas.

"Disappearance of the method:--My disciples being unable

p. 483 [JPTS'86,3433
to realize the trances, the insights, the Paths, and the Fruits, will keep only the four purities of conduct. Then as time goes on they will keep only the commandments forbidding the four deadly sins. As long as there are a hundred or a thousand priests who keep the commandments forbidding the four deadly sins, the disappearance of the method will not have occurred. But when the last priest shall break the precepts, or shall die, the method will have disappeared.

The Sangha will become non-existant because people will not continue to teach the Dhamma.

"This, O Sâriputta, is the disappearance of the method.

"Disappearance of learning:--As long as the text of the Three Baskets, which is the word of The Buddha, and as long as their commentaries are extant, the disappearance of learning will not have occurred. But as time goes on there will be irreligious kings of base extraction, and the courtiers and others in authority will be irreligious, and then the country people throughout the kingdom will be irreligious. On account of their irreligion the god will not rain in due season, and the crops will not flourish properly. And when the crops do not flourish, those who are wont to give the reliances to the congregation of the priests will be unable to do so any more.

The suttas will not be taught anymore because the people are becoming irreligious. The Buddha taught everything is ever changing. Nothing is eternal. The suttas are not eternal. They are not divine.

"This, O Sâriputta, is the disappearance of learning.

"Now as time goes on the last of the priests will carry their robes, their bowls, and their tooth-sticks after the manner of the naked ascetics....[they will say] 'What do we want with this?' and they will throw away the piece of yellow cloth and persecute the wild animals and birds of the forest, and thus the disappearance of the symbols will have occurred.

The priests of the Sangha will desert the Dhamma. The Dhamma doesn't decay just because the Sangha breaks apart.

"This, O Sâriputta, is the disappearance of the symbols and symbols.

"Thereupon, the dispensation of The Supreme Buddha being now five thousand years old, the relics will begin to fail of honor and worship, and will go wherever they can receive honor and worship. But as time goes on they will not receive honor and worship in any place. Then, when the dispensation has disappeared, the relics will come from every place; from the serpent world, from the world of the gods, and from the

Relics and symbols do not last forever. Nothing is eternal in The Buddha's teachings.

"But who shall not behold Metteyya, The Blessed One? and who shall behold him?

"Metteyya excellent, Râma,
Pasenadi Kosala, 'Bhibhû,
Dîghasoni and Samkacca,
Subha, the Brahman Todeyya,
"Nâlâgiri, Palaleyya,
These ten are Future Buddhas now,
And in due course, in time to come,
Wisdom Supreme shall they attain."

There is nothing different between this and The Buddha's teachings. All Buddhas taught the same thing about wisdom of the Dhamma and what it means to be enlightened.


The second link talks about The Buddha telling followers that there would be someone like himself who teaches the same teachings just as The Buddha who will be exalted like The Buddha. When The Buddha went into paranivanna, he told his disciples to continue with his teachings.

None of the teaches of The Buddha have decayed.

When everyone has gone, kamma will exist.
When everyone is gone, compassion and good will still exist.
When everyone is gone, the noble truths (suffering) will still exist.​

These things are not dependent on Maitreya's return.

After awhile, the physical teachings do decay because nothing lasts forever.

Unlike Christ, Bahaullah, and Muhammad, there is no god involved in this whole process of other Buddhas and Bodhisattvas continuing The Buddha's teachings once they are enlightened.

You have to provide examples of how the Dhamma decays not the people's practice of it. We do the best we can to practice the Dhamma but once we become attached to its physical teachings, we are no longer practicing the Dhamma. Bahai are attached to the physical teachings. That's contrary to what The Dhamma teaches.

Bahaullah cannot remedy that unless he changes The Dhamma to reflect god.

:leafwind:

One side note. Krishna can't return. He is already here. He's god.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
We would offer read what Baha'u'llah has gifted humanity, Baha'u'llah is that return. It is the Spirit that returns.

I guess you know what has then changed in understanding as many of thousands of posts contain those discussions.

The Love has not changed.

Oh dear a full circle :);)

Regards Tony

From the suttas not from Bahaullah.

You're not interested in talking about the suttas without adding Bahaullah's interpretation in it. That's like my talking to you about Bahaullah and every time you teach me something, I add "well, this is how The Buddha would see it." It's not about me. If I want to learn something from you, I talk about the content and context of what you are saying. The only way I can learn from you personally Tony is having a back and forth conversation that every other Bahai here is having except you.

Instead of being sarcastic, is there something in the suttas that The Buddha and The Buddha only says that his disciple will teach differently than himself?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
From the suttas not from Bahaullah.

You're not interested in talking about the suttas without adding Bahaullah's interpretation in it. That's like my talking to you about Bahaullah and every time you teach me something, I add "well, this is how The Buddha would see it." It's not about me. If I want to learn something from you, I talk about the content and context of what you are saying. The only way I can learn from you personally Tony is having a back and forth conversation that every other Bahai here is having except you.

Instead of being sarcastic, is there something in the suttas that The Buddha and The Buddha only says that his disciple will teach differently than himself?

I deleted my post before I saw this, my reply was not appropriate, I am interested. I ran out if time sorry. Lover will reply.

Regards Tony
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
13:1 a beast with 10 horns, 7 heads and 10 crowns and looks like a leopard, feet like a beer, and a mouth like a lion. One of its heads has the wound. The whole earth followed this beast and it got its authority from the dragon? If the dragon is the Abbasids, and this beast is the Ummayads, how did the Ummayads get their authority from the Abbasids that came after them and had revolted and defeated the Ummayads?

13:11another beast that comes out of the earth with two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon? This beast makes everyone worship the first beast that had the fatal wound that was healed. You said the wounded one was part of the Ummayads that set himself up in Andalucia after the Abbasids took over? But anyway, this new beast makes everyone worship the image of the first beast? Who is this? Thanks.

As far as I know the interpretation of the verses of Revelation 13 is not directly written in Baha'i Scriptures. I will give you my take on it, based on similar interpretations given by Abdulbaha and Bible in Daniel 8.

In Revelation 13, prophecies describe two beasts using symbols. The first beast looks like a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of lion.
This beast denotes the rise of false Islam, and specially related to Caliphs within the Sunni Islam. Looking like a leopard with feet like bear and mouth like lion, denotes that these dominions outwardly is aggressive and powerful, and appears to have religious authority like the Lion, being symbol of the Prophet of God.

The second beast, looks like a Lamb with two horns. The Lamb is the symbol of chosen Ones of God who sacrifice in the path of God. Within Shia Islam, all the Imams were Martyred and specially Imam Hossein's head was cut. This beast represent the Rise of false Shia Islam in Persia, who outwardly considered and pretended to be like the Wronged ones, and followers of the Imams of Shia, who were the symbols of sacrifice.

Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia

The two horns represents the kingdoms and dominions of Media and Persia, similar to Daniel 8. This is where the false Shia Islam came to power.

The only difference is, the Ram with two horns in Daniel 8 is changed with the Lamb, but he speaks like the first beast, meaning outwardly it looks like following the Wronged Ones of God, yet in reality, is speaking against the teachings of religion of God.
Now, the number of the beast, being 666 denotes 666 years after Christ, the rise of Muawiyah.
The Lamb makes everyone worship the Image of this beast. By 'image of beast', is meant the attributes of him; selfishness, cruelty and worldly. And in reality these are the attributes that the false Shia Islam promoted.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
One side note. Krishna can't return. He is already here. He's god.

That's what the Christians believe about Christ, but they still think He's going to return.

How does the 10th Avatar Kalki fit if there's no return?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
That's what the Christians believe about Christ, but they still think He's going to return.

How does the 10th Avatar Kalki fit if there's no return?

Christ was a human being. He is not god or an incarnation.

Krishna is god. An incarnation of Vishnu.

How can god return when god is already here?

Edit...oh. and also. If christ didnt resurrect physically, christ spirit is already here.

Who is returning?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Christ was a human being. He is not god or an incarnation.

Sure, but that is not what Christians believe.

Krishna is god. An incarnation of Vishnu.

That is what Vaishnavite Hindus believe but like the Christian belief I doubt if it is really true.

How can god return when god is already here?
To answer that we need to better understand the divinity of Christ, and How He can be God, and How He is not God. It sounds like a contradiction, but it isn't.

Edit...oh. and also. If christ didnt resurrect physically, christ spirit is already here.

Who is returning?

As John the Baptist came as the spirit of Elijiah, we have the One who comes forth in the Spirit of Christ. Same type of Spirit, different body, different person.

http://www.equip.org/article/was-john-the-baptist-elijah/
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Little wonder rumours abound that the Baha'i' have one of the highest divorce rates of any faith. But it's rumours only because it's hard to get statistics, both because of the low population of Baha'i' in general, and the secrecy. Certainly it seems logical given what you just said.

I knew of a few break ups, back when I had any contact with bahais.

There could be yet another 'situation'. The Bab wrote his own laws, and I have a feeling that one of these was that Babis could only take two wives. Bahauallah was a Babi.
If that is the case then his credibility is thrown into doubt.

I was looking into this question (unsuccessfully) when I noticed this brief description of some Babi laws written into the Babi Bayan which I believe was adopted by bahai.

If these are witheld laws then ................... oh dear!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1bism#Religious_law
Some of the new laws included changing the direction of the Qibla to the Báb's house in Shiraz, Iran and changing the calendar to a solar calendar of nineteen months and nineteen days (which became the basis of the Bahá'í calendar) and prescribing the last month as a month of fasting.[20]
.............................................................
While some statements in the Bayan show tolerance, there are other very harsh regulations in regards to relations with non-believers. For example, non-believers are forbidden to live in five central Iranian provinces, the holy places of previous religions are to be demolished, all non-Bábí books should be destroyed, believers are not to marry or sit in the company of non-believers, and the property of non-believers can be taken from them.[21]

How much is witheld from the world?
 
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