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How are these Great Beings explained?

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The thing we do know is that all the major religions speak of both a golden age and a Promised One to appear at a latter age. That is part of their expectations.

We are only saying that He has appeared. That the promises in their Holy Books are fulfilled. The Jews wait for the Messiah, the Christians the return of Christ, the Buddhists Maitreya and so on.

One day these things will happen. One day Christ is supposed to return and the Buddha and Krishna also. So it is written and recorded.

So what happens then? The Christians aren’t supposed to accept Christ when He returns or the Buddhist a new Buddha?

So theoretically tell me when these Teachers do return do you honestly think their followers are going to welcome Them with open arms? Just look at what the Jews did to Christ Whom they claimed to be waiting for.

Whenever a Teacher apoears, history shows that the former religion which expected His coming either tortured, killed or crucified Him or did worse things.

So why would current religionists be any different. Of course they denounce Baha’u’llah as a false Messiah but so too was Christ accused.

Going by history, humanity has never once welcomed the Manifestation. So of course people are going to resist but that is nothing new.

It’s still a fact that as a Christian or Jew or Buddhist or other religion they still await the One foretold in their scriptures and so what if He appears?

Are they supposed to turn to Him or just join in with the popular sentiment and denounce Him as false, culturally appropriating their religion and twisting the meanings they have clung to for centuries? It is nothing new for former religions to denounce their new Manifestation. It happens all the time.

I took refuge in the lineage that "waits" for maitreya. No. Maitreya coming does nothing. Many Buddhas came in between Sakyamuni. They all taught the same Dhamma.

The glories kings and chariots wear out
The body too undergoes decay
the Dhamma of the good does not decay
So the good proclaim with the good

Maitrya and all buddhas and bodhisattvas have the same message and same dhamma. You can call him the promised one and relate him to christ. He is not the promised One. Many buddhist sects dont even believe in Meitreya coming back.

This is again bahai assuming they know the suttas better than buddhists (all buddhists) themselves. Also, its saying the suttas are false because it says the message stays the same just many buddhas came thought eons of time periods to expound it.

What do you think Maiteya will change in the Dhamma?

Hinduism is another one. How can Krishna come when he is already here?

Oooh. With Buddhism its The Buddha, The Dhamma, The Sangha. Meitreya is not part of the three jewels.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
How then do you actually determine what truth is? Tradition? How many believers a religion has? Wealth? Power? Influence?

What is your criteria to determine and distinguish truth from falsehood?

I don't determine it. I have no criteria. Simple as that. Just as prophet based religions are focused on prophet, a book, dogma, etc., they are also focused on a need to determine what is truth, and what isn't. For me, coming from another paradigm, that seems odd.

In my paradigm, all that doesn't matter, or at least has far far less importance. We put our priorities on other things like keeping the reincarnation cycle moving along, seeking contentment in life, building happy families and communities, being peaceful. With all that to keep us busy, there is little time to argue or think about what is truth. OTOH, we intuitively know that one day we will discover it mystically, beyond the intellect.

So the closest thing, I suppose. between paradigms. is just belief. We all have our own beliefs. They aren't truths, though.

But go ahead, keep thinking you have it, and others don't. I don't mind.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I have read some of them too, and seen people come and go in my own Baha'i community. I think its really important those considering joining the Baha'i Faith know clearly what it means to be a Baha'i before they join, and Baha'is have a responsibility to ensure that newcomers are well supported.

That would have solved some of the problems the ex-Baha'i' faced for sure. It's not fun when 'hidden stuff' (intentional or otherwise) shows up later. It's like if that happened in a marriage. If someone pretended to be a virgin, and then came clean much later, as an example, in situations where that moral concept is very important, there could be hellish times to come.

But as to proselytizing, I agree that it does come in degrees, and I don't see the Baha'i' as being as extreme as certain other groups. As you'd be familiar with, that was also a theme in ex-Baha'i' stories ... the pressure to keep looking for converts was a turnoff for some, if not many.

And I know that there have been warnings on the forum here to Baha'i's about proselytizing. So I'm certainly not alone with those thoughts.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Hindus will see clear evidence to support reincarnation in the Upanishads as the Christians see the NT confirming a literal resurrection.

Sorry to interrupt your conversation with Didymus, but I just wanted to point out the other factor, more relevant today. Reincarnation is an ongoing process of life for Hindus, So it gets confirmed continuously. Hindus feel it, have children say things about their past lives, pick up souls from past agreements, feel souls hovering over mother's wombs, do rituals specifically to get older souls, or recognise birthmarks that are indicators of the previous life. So not only is it written down in ancient texts, its also part of a Hindu's everyday life.
On a personal note, I know the immediate past life of all of my children, and know lots of people like me. For us, who are living and breathing the tradition of Sanatana Dharma, it's not just some concept written down in some far off book, but part of every day life, like eating, death, and more. So for us, it's just normal, even boring.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
For us lucky ones however, who have accepted, we are able to perform some acts of service in this life.

Oh goody, another describer for us poor ones. Unlucky. Are we also unable to perform acts of service?
Diseased.
Walking away from God.
Blind.

"Oh, wait. there will be more."

So to reiterate .... When will these insults cease? lol I'll have to have a side bet with Didymus or Carlita as to what it'll be next.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
A couple meets, may never know each other completely until after marriage, and so engage and undertake an extremely short period of preparation for a marriage. They marry and can find that they are totally unsuited to each other from first night, even. There is often one pregnancy or birth before separation and then the one year before divorce. In such a puritanical world I don't expect there will be that much emphasis on sexual therapy or counselling. And then round they can all go again.

Little wonder rumours abound that the Baha'i' have one of the highest divorce rates of any faith. But it's rumours only because it's hard to get statistics, both because of the low population of Baha'i' in general, and the secrecy. Certainly it seems logical given what you just said.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Four minutes to work. This will be the shortest reply yet. I hope.
Because they contain universal truths and they are an invaluable part of our heritage.

In relation to your faith, why would you hold something at high regard when they are teachings that are irrelevant for today? (Why use an outdated computer that does not work anymore instead of a new one?)

Everything is disrespectful to the Christians and Jews including Christians and the Jews.

Everyone has their trigger points.

Christians and Muslims have been the main instigators of wars historically. Baha'is have never started a war with anyone or committed any atrocities/genocides. Nor will they.

Not statistics. Read what I post again. Statements and beliefs like what I posted causes wars.

Now you are saying how I should define and express my beliefs are you not?

Will get back to you...

But many Christians teachings are relevant, and Baha'is believe in those teachings. We do believe in the same scriptures as the Christians and most of it we do see eye to eye. You are looking at the one thing we disagree on, rather than the ten that we agree on. That's fine and I'm uncomfortable with disagreement. We just need the whole picture.

You're either contradicting yourself or not getting it.

Of course teachings are relevant to christians and yourself. The issue is you said the teachings are irrelevant in and of themselves.

That is the problem.

The Buddha looks like a Manifestation of God to me. He has brought teachings that have endured 2,500 years across many cultures. I don't think He was an ordinary man at all, but that's just my POV.

Christians believe that Christ was God incarnate and Krishna wasn't. Viashnavite Hindu's believe that Krishna was God incarnate and Christ wasn't. Baha'is believe that neither were God incarnate and both were Manifestations of God. If Christians and Hindus can have beliefs that contract the others, why can't Baha'is?

Because they don't say "diversity in unity" and unification. That's why it's a contradiction in terms.

We are all entitled to our beliefs regardless of whether we are right or wrong. To me, that's the essential problem here. Hindus seem not to want other faith adherents to have views about their religions, but Hindus who clearly believe their religion to be superior, have plenty of disparaging stuff to say about other religions, particularly the Abrahamic ones.

to be continued...

That is exactly what I'm doing here. I learn best by conversing with people different from me. The suggestion that I should wander off into the sunset and go read a book, doesn't work for me, because I rely heavily on interactions with different faith adherents and those with different worldviews. I'm a social being.

continued....

Application of what you learn means empathy rather than just intellect.

That's all to your credit that you do that, and it's what makes you the outstanding person you are IMHO.

Shrugs. I learned that my body cant handle thinking of genocide to where I have nightmares. So, equality is a huge value that affects me all over.

I presume the LGBTQ community sees marriage like everyone else, but simply broadens the concepts to include a man marrying a man, and a woman marrying a woman, and viewing the relationship as we all do. Then they will raise children as other couples do, though the reproductive process will have some clear differences. That is what the people through democracy and majority vote have asked for in my country and they have it. I'm not standing in anyone's way and really do wish everyone well.

Can you imagine (empathy and seeing yourself as) a gay ma with a other man, married, have sex after marriage, raise children, and die together while both of you believe in god and practice and love god immensely?

Application of knowledge lends deeper conversations.

I can understand that. I've had plenty of dealings with gays when I was working in mental health, both patients and staff.

"With gays"?? Sounds like when I hear people say "with colored people" (people still say that here in my complex). With people who are gay or identify as gay. Its a step better than homosexual. Many view homosexual and gay identity as different things.

Ha ha. If it hadn't been posted in the general debates section we would never have had this conversation. It just seems to get better and better, though some days, clearly not so good. I wonder when it will end?

Probably interfaith is more appropriate for this topic of great beings. But some of your peers arent interested in other peoples views so I honestlty dont know. You guys arent "debaters" in the RF sense of the word, so...

My involvement with RF and this thread in particular has exceeded all my expectations when I decided to get involved at the end of last year. Its all I had hoped for and more. Thank you for contributing to this very positive experience. :)
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Sorry to interrupt your conversation with Didymus, but I just wanted to point out the other factor, more relevant today. Reincarnation is an ongoing process of life for Hindus, So it gets confirmed continuously. Hindus feel it, have children say things about their past lives, pick up souls from past agreements, feel souls hovering over mother's wombs, do rituals specifically to get older souls, or recognise birthmarks that are indicators of the previous life. So not only is it written down in ancient texts, its also part of a Hindu's everyday life.
On a personal note, I know the immediate past life of all of my children, and know lots of people like me. For us, who are living and breathing the tradition of Sanatana Dharma, it's not just some concept written down in some far off book, but part of every day life, like eating, death, and more. So for us, it's just normal, even boring.
The Baha'is and their children do not remember that they had a past life. But you say the Hindus do. So do you think, that is because Baha'is did not have a past life, but the Hindus did? Or there is another reason?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The Baha'is and their children do not remember that they had a past life. But you say the Hindus do. So do you think, that is because Baha'is did not have a past life, but the Hindus did? Or there is another reason?

Some people do. Some people don't. If a Baha'i' did remember his past life, he would repress that, because it goes against the dogma. If he spoke out about it, he would risk losing his membership. So it would be hard to tell really if a Baha'i' ever remembered his past life.

Hindus, on the other hand, at least those that did remember, would have no problem at all with it, because it isn't against Hinduism. Still, most Hindus rarely even reflect on it, because its such common knowledge.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Oh goody, another describer for us poor ones. Unlucky. Are we also unable to perform acts of service?
Diseased.
Walking away from God.
Blind.

"Oh, wait. there will be more."

So to reiterate .... When will these insults cease? lol I'll have to have a side bet with Didymus or Carlita as to what it'll be next.

You’re taking my words out of context.

Let’s assume we’re telling the truth about Baha’u’llah then aren’t we lucky to be able to perform acts of service in His Name?

That’s only from the standpoint of IF this is the truth.

It’s got nothing to do with condescending or insukting ityers it’s just a hypothetical argument. A what if, if you like.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I know the Saivite branch of Hinduism doesn’t but within Hinduism there are those that do.
Yes. But not what you said. Besides the Saiva branch of Hinduism, there are other branches of Hinduism, lots of pagans, other dharmic faiths, atheists, agnostics, much of the SBNR crowd, and many other people on this planet who don't follow a prophet (manifestation, avatar, whatever you want to call it) . It was am incorrect generalisation. I'm guessing half the people on this planet don't. So I am not alone. But then we're the unlucky, blind, diseased, folks who turn our backs on God, so I guess you can't expect much from us, lol.

Editted: This is what you said ... "The thing we do know is that all the major religions speak of both a golden age and a Promised One to appear at a latter age. That is part of their expectations."
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I don't determine it. I have no criteria. Simple as that. Just as prophet based religions are focused on prophet, a book, dogma, etc., they are also focused on a need to determine what is truth, and what isn't. For me, coming from another paradigm, that seems odd.

In my paradigm, all that doesn't matter, or at least has far far less importance. We put our priorities on other things like keeping the reincarnation cycle moving along, seeking contentment in life, building happy families and communities, being peaceful. With all that to keep us busy, there is little time to argue or think about what is truth. OTOH, we intuitively know that one day we will discover it mystically, beyond the intellect.

So the closest thing, I suppose. between paradigms. is just belief. We all have our own beliefs. They aren't truths, though.

But go ahead, keep thinking you have it, and others don't. I don't mind.

No I don’t have all truth. It’s impossible for my feeble mind to contain even a fraction of it. I only think that what I do know has truth within it but it’s a belief.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
You’re taking my words out of context.

Let’s assume we’re telling the truth about Baha’u’llah then aren’t we lucky to be able to perform acts of service in His Name?

From the arguments I've read put forth by other Abrahamics, the Baha'i' faith is chronically taking words out of context, but it's all good.

But you do assume he's telling the truth, LH. That's the point here. And that's why the insults follow. Those of us who don't believe are wrong. We HAVE to be. That is what you believe, I think.

From my POV, to reiterate, nobody is wrong. It is just belief.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
No I don’t have all truth. It’s impossible for my feeble mind to contain even a fraction of it. I only think that what I do know has truth within it but it’s a belief.
It would be helpful if this was the way you expressed it more often. But generally, in this discussion we've been having, you take a break, then come back, hurl some insults (unknowingly) and then when someone calls you on it, you retract it, and then you're more polite.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Yes. But not what you said. Besides the Saiva branch of Hinduism, there are other branches of Hinduism, lots of pagans, other dharmic faiths, atheists, agnostics, much of the SBNR crowd, and many other people on this planet who don't follow a prophet (manifestation, avatar, whatever you want to call it) . It was am incorrect generalisation. I'm guessing half the people on this planet don't. So I am not alone. But then we're the unlucky, blind, diseased, folks who turn our backs on God, so I guess you can't expect much from us, lol.

I said IF. It was just speculation. The same applies equally to me. If I’m wrong I’m unlucky too. So my point is if I’m wrong and reincarnation is truth then I’m depriving myself of something very special right?.

I may be blind, diseased and have turned my back in God in many peoples eyes. Christians say I’m infected with Satan.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
It would be helpful if this was the way you expressed it more often. But generally, in this discussion we've been having, you take a break, then come back, hurl some insults (unknowingly) and then when someone calls you on it, you retract it, and then you're more polite.

It’s my terrible social skills. I never mean anything but ahimsa but my words sometimes are like hot chilli instead of mild like milk. I have to be more sensitive. It’s also my western frankness. Frankness can be discourteous so it has to be moderated. You’re probably good at reflection before doing something. I’m good at hindsight lol (when the damage has been done)

But it’s good you tell me these things so I can try and be more aware and try harder not to insult you. But I never set out to be insultive although I likely need to be more selective how I express myself.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
From the arguments I've read put forth by other Abrahamics, the Baha'i' faith is chronically taking words out of context, but it's all good.

But you do assume he's telling the truth, LH. That's the point here. And that's why the insults follow. Those of us who don't believe are wrong. We HAVE to be. That is what you believe, I think.

From my POV, to reiterate, nobody is wrong. It is just belief.

It’s just belief.
 
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