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Featured How are these Great Beings explained?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by loverofhumanity, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    “And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven
    heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.”[61] This dragon represents the Umayyads, who seized the reins of the religion of Muḥammad; and the seven heads and seven crowns represent the seven dominions and kingdoms over which they came to rule: the Roman dominion in Syria; the Persian, the Arabian, and the Egyptian dominions; the dominion of Africa—that is, Tunisia, Morocco, and Algeria; the dominion of Andalusia, which is now Spain; and the dominion of the Turkish tribes of Transoxania. The Umayyads gained power over all these dominions. The ten horns represent the names of the Umayyad rulers, for, barring repetition, they are ten sovereigns, or ten names of chiefs and rulers. The first is Abú Sufyán and the last is Marván. Some of their names have been repeated,
    including two Mu‘áviyihs, three Yazíds, two Valíds, and two Marváns. If, however, these names are each counted only once, they number ten in total. These Umayyads—the first of whom was Abú Sufyán, the former chief of Mecca and founder of the dynasty, and the last of whom was Marván—destroyed a third of the holy and sanctified souls who descended from the pure lineage of Muḥammad and who were even as the stars of heaven.
    “And the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.”[62] This woman is the religion of God, as was before explained. The
    dragon’s standing near her signifies that it was keeping watch to devour her child as soon as it had been delivered. This child was the promised Manifestation, Who is the offspring of the religion of Muḥammad. The Umayyads were ever anxious to lay hold on the Promised One Who was to appear from the lineage of Muḥammad, that they might destroy and annihilate Him, for they greatly feared His advent. And so wherever they found a descendant of Muḥammad who was respected in the eyes
    of the people, they killed him.

    Abdulbaha, Some Answered Questions
     
  2. Jedster

    Jedster Well-Known Member

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    Phew!!!
    Louis, the cat, says he's ok.:)
     
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  3. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Keep in mind that the Dispensation of the Bab or the second woe only lasted 19 years. That is why the third woe cometh quickly, but also why the beast/dragon of the Islamic Caliphate is still around.

    Whether we are talking about the beast or dragon, it still refers to the Islamic Caliphate. The Umayyads and Abbasids were of course important dynasties within that Caliphate. So were the Ottomans. We have allusions to all three in Revelation.

    The Dragon is the Islamic Caliphate that begun with the Umayyads in 661 and ended with the demise of the Ottomans through WWI.

    The Umayyads were destroyed by the Abbasids, but the Umayyad Caliphate continued as one of the seven heads (territorial dominions) of the first beast, that existed under the reign of the Abbasids and then the Ottomans (ie for much of the dispensation of Islam - 1260 years duration from the start of the Islamic calendar to the start of the Baha'i calender).

    Timeline of the Muslim presence in the Iberian Peninsula - Wikipedia

    The second beast was the Abbasid dynasty IMHO. The Abbasid dynasty came to power by conquest on the ruins (earth) of the Umayyad Empire. Its rulers gradually became Turkish beginning about 840 AD. The second beast had two names (horns) of 'the Caliph' and 'the Sultan.' At its apex, the second beast exercised all the power of the Umayyads and revived the dying Empire that had been "mortally wounded" yet had lived on in Spain. The nations of Europe, Africa, and the Middle East once again admired the Islamic Empire. The second beast also displayed remarkable technical and scientific skills. Very early they learned the use of gunpowder and strange devices were used in war, such as burning javelins and globes that were propelled over long distances.

    Hope that helps.

    Edit: NB Anything in chapter 13 of the book of Revelation is open for debate amongst Baha'is as we don't have any specific and authoritative interpretations, and any comments I make are my opinion albeit based on research.
     
    #13383 adrian009, Nov 4, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2017
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  4. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    That's a relief then. We have just been discussing the number 666, its origins and what it means (see above). You are welcome to join us, but such discussion isn't for everybody. :)
     
  5. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    That is because 1844 is when the Baha'i era or dispensation begins. Our calendar (initially revealed by the Bab and confirmed by Baha'u'llah) starts from 23rd May 1844, when the Bab declared to Mulla Husayn.

    In regards to 1863, this is considered to related to the number 1290 prophesied in the book of Daniel 12:11

    And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
    Daniel 12:11

    The research department of the Universal House of Justice makes a reference to 1290 in a letter to an individual believer:

    In "Some Answered Questions" (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1984), pages 43-44, Abdu'l-Bahá interprets the prophecy concerning the 1,290 days in the following terms:

    The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muhammad in the country of Hijaz; and that was three years after His mission, because in the beginning the prophethood of Muhammad was kept secret, and no one knew it save Khadijah and Ibn Nawfal. After three years it was announced. And Bahá'u'lláh, in the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad, caused His manifestation to be known.

    Note that the Master indicates that, in this instance, time is measured by the "lunar" calendar. Since the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad took place ten years prior to the Hegira, i.e., His flight from Mecca to Medina, from which date the Muslim calendar begins, the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad was the year 1280 of the Hegira, or 1863-64 A.D.
    There are references to 1,290 days in "God Passes By", on pages 110 and 151. In these passages, Shoghi Effendi confirms that the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh in Baghdad, which occurred in 1863 (1280 A.H.), represents the fulfilment of the 1,290 days.
     
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  6. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    In the beginning of all religions it’s like that. Christianity began with a few disciples then grew to embrace all humanity. Who would have thought then that it would encompass the world?

    People then would have scoffed like they do now about Baha’u’llah. So only time will tell.

    For us lucky ones however, who have accepted, we are able to perform some acts of service in this life.
     
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  7. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    I am guessing this is how Baha'is also harmonize what the Qu'ran says with the Bible? That when the Qu'ran says they crucified Jesus not- it means the spiritual Jesus? Because I've thought about myself, just as a passing question- about rather what the Bible and Qu'ran say about Jesus's death can actually be in harmony. The Qu'ran says Jesus wasn't even crucified.
     
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  8. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    How then do you actually determine what truth is? Tradition? How many believers a religion has? Wealth? Power? Influence?

    What is your criteria to determine and distinguish truth from falsehood?
     
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  9. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Hinduism is a religion I have little knowledge or experience. Have you asked any Hindus?:)

    If you did some research you might hear something like this:

    Hinduism is a collective term applied to the many philosophical and religious traditions native to India. Hinduism has neither a specific moment of origin nor a specific founder. Rather, the tradition understands itself to be timeless, having always existed.
    Read more at Hinduism Origins, Hinduism History, Hinduism Beliefs

    How about:

    Historically speaking, the theory of reincarnation is as old as the history of man. Reincarnation arose in northern India between the years 1000 and 600 BC, just at the time that David and his descendants ruled Israel until the fall of Jerusalem. The first reference to reincarnation idea is at least 2600 years. It appears in the Upanishads, the sacred scriptures of Hinduism..

    History Of Reincarnation: The Ancient And Original Beliefs

    Hindus will see clear evidence to support reincarnation in the Upanishads as the Christians see the NT confirming a literal resurrection.

    We really need to have a Baha'i here who has been a Hindu or has excellent knowledge of Hinduism IMHO. We don't.
     
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  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    That's exactly how Baha'is see it.
     
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  11. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Not all. His disciples didn't believe it. They never saw it. It never happened.

    From day one.
    Matthew 3:13-17

    We all have tares that need to be separated from wheat.
    Matthew 13:24-30
     
    #13391 adrian009, Nov 5, 2017
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  12. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    The thing we do know is that all the major religions speak of both a golden age and a Promised One to appear at a latter age. That is part of their expectations.

    We are only saying that He has appeared. That the promises in their Holy Books are fulfilled. The Jews wait for the Messiah, the Christians the return of Christ, the Buddhists Maitreya and so on.

    One day these things will happen. One day Christ is supposed to return and the Buddha and Krishna also. So it is written and recorded.

    So what happens then? The Christians aren’t supposed to accept Christ when He returns or the Buddhist a new Buddha?

    So theoretically tell me when these Teachers do return do you honestly think their followers are going to welcome Them with open arms? Just look at what the Jews did to Christ Whom they claimed to be waiting for.

    Whenever a Teacher apoears, history shows that the former religion which expected His coming either tortured, killed or crucified Him or did worse things.

    So why would current religionists be any different. Of course they denounce Baha’u’llah as a false Messiah but so too was Christ accused.

    Going by history, humanity has never once welcomed the Manifestation. So of course people are going to resist but that is nothing new.

    It’s still a fact that as a Christian or Jew or Buddhist or other religion they still await the One foretold in their scriptures and so what if He appears?

    Are they supposed to turn to Him or just join in with the popular sentiment and denounce Him as false, culturally appropriating their religion and twisting the meanings they have clung to for centuries? It is nothing new for former religions to denounce their new Manifestation. It happens all the time.
     
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  13. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    heterosexual marriage of course.

    A selection of extracts from the Bahá’í writings on family life and marriage
     
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  14. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Because they contain universal truths and they are an invaluable part of our heritage.

    That is my experience of women, yes.:)

    Everything is disrespectful to the Christians and Jews including Christians and the Jews.

    Christians and Muslims have been the main instigators of wars historically. Baha'is have never started a war with anyone or committed any atrocities/genocides. Nor will they.

    Now you are saying how I should define and express my beliefs are you not?

    But many Christians teachings are relevant, and Baha'is believe in those teachings. We do believe in the same scriptures as the Christians and most of it we do see eye to eye. You are looking at the one thing we disagree on, rather than the ten that we agree on. That's fine and I'm uncomfortable with disagreement. We just need the whole picture.

    The Buddha looks like a Manifestation of God to me. He has brought teachings that have endured 2,500 years across many cultures. I don't think He was an ordinary man at all, but that's just my POV.

    Christians believe that Christ was God incarnate and Krishna wasn't. Viashnavite Hindu's believe that Krishna was God incarnate and Christ wasn't. Baha'is believe that neither were God incarnate and both were Manifestations of God. If Christians and Hindus can have beliefs that contract the others, why can't Baha'is?

    There is the core problem in a nutshell for me.

    We are all entitled to our beliefs regardless of whether we are right or wrong. To me, that's the essential problem here. Hindus seem not to want other faith adherents to have views about their religions, but Hindus who clearly believe their religion to be superior, have plenty of disparaging stuff to say about other religions, particularly the Abrahamic ones.

    That is exactly what I'm doing here. I learn best by conversing with people different from me. The suggestion that I should wander off into the sunset and go read a book, doesn't work for me, because I rely heavily on interactions with different faith adherents and those with different worldviews. I'm a social being.

    That's all to your credit that you do that, and it's what makes you the outstanding person you are IMHO.

    I presume the LGBTQ community sees marriage like everyone else, but simply broadens the concepts to include a man marrying a man, and a woman marrying a woman, and viewing the relationship as we all do. Then they will raise children as other couples do, though the reproductive process will have some clear differences. That is what the people through democracy and majority vote have asked for in my country and they have it. I'm not standing in anyone's way and really do wish everyone well.

    I can understand that. I've had plenty of dealings with gays when I was working in mental health, both patients and staff.

    Ha ha. If it hadn't been posted in the general debates section we would never have had this conversation. It just seems to get better and better, though some days, clearly not so good. I wonder when it will end?

    My involvement with RF and this thread in particular has exceeded all my expectations when I decided to get involved at the end of last year. Its all I had hoped for and more. Thank you for contributing to this very positive experience. :)
     
    #13394 adrian009, Nov 5, 2017
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  15. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I disagree that Baha'is aggressively proselytize but that's you POV and I accept that. I've explained my concerns about the use of this word which you disagree with, so it is what it is.

    Every country in the future will have the option to have or not have capital punishment as they do now. Countries may chose it or not and that's fine according to the Baha'i Faith.

    On the other hand India have always had the death penalty and still do. They have even voted against attempts to end it instigated by the United Nations. So its the kettle calling the pot black really.

    India is hardly a model to the world for LGBTQ rights, but we've had this discussion.

    Its not a straightforward issue (excuse the pun) and there are valid arguments and concerns either way. I think it is just name calling when one party accuses the other of being regressive.

    That is exactly right.

    I have read some of them too, and seen people come and go in my own Baha'i community. I think its really important those considering joining the Baha'i Faith know clearly what it means to be a Baha'i before they join, and Baha'is have a responsibility to ensure that newcomers are well supported.

    At the core is a belief, not just in Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God for this day, but that Abdu'l-Baha was His successor, and beyond that, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice. That is at the heart of Baha'i belief. Membership in the Baha'i Faith is voluntary. Further, Baha'is are free to maintain contact with those that leave. I keep in regular contact with two ex-Bahais.
     
    #13395 adrian009, Nov 5, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  16. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Immersion in the Ocean of God's Word
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    Adrian has confirmed your question, these are some Koran Verses about Jesus being raised up to God.

    Verse (3:55)Yusuf Ali: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

    Verse (5:117)Yusuf Ali: "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.


    Verse (19:33)Yusuf Ali: "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

    So it is clear that the Koran notes that Jesus will be put to death and be raised in the Spirit. You can not Crucify Christ, you can not Kill the Spirit God Has Given.

    Regards Tony
     
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  17. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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  18. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Hmmmm...... The thing is, Mosiac law accepts more than just that, and Jesus demanded even more on that list.

    You're going backwards.

    Can you see how, at some point, Bahai is just going to grind to a halt on membership over issues like this? Where Bahai might see all of that list (less one) as wrong or even wicked, the World is slowly moving to a position where it would see Bahai as a deeply fundamentalist and unhealthy group........ If the World doesn't like you then it won't call you a religion, and you know that, I expect.
     
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  19. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    Time will tell. If the current movement towards heterosexual and gay couples marrying or simply living together defacto and having children works then you are right. Let's see. I'm a patient kinda guy.
     
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  20. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Times past have already told.

    L = Lesbian. There was no legislation against females laying together in fact whole groups of females lived together for several days each month and there was no problem with relationships amongst them.
    Gay = Men were needed to take a wife and have children to strengthen the people. So there was no benefit in men being allowed to form relationships, and since inter-sexual relationships were very dangerous back then then the law was applied. But today we don't need more children, and slightly better education can protect from deseases being transmitted.
    B= Bisexual. Women could be bisexual. Threy had relationships with other women and wre faithful; to their men.
    T = Transexual. Only Hermaphrodites fell into this category afaics, and today if a person feels certain that they have the wrong gender then they should be supported by society, and not repressed as your post seems to suggest.
    T = Transvestite. Where men or women wish to dress to look as the opposite sex, for whatever reasons, then they should be supported by society. Why? Well, because any mindset that merely 'puts up' with such personal drives is in danger of regression back to puritanical hypocrisy.
    Q = Queer sexual tastes are nothing to do with anybody else apart from the individual, and possibly their medical services. Any system of control that leaves such individuals repressed and hiding themselves away is not a spiritual system, if I may be allowed to use that word-salad.
    I= Intersexual. Not knowing about this group, I cannot say more than where a person feels drawn towards any sexuality then society needs to support them. A society that treats any sexual individuality as 'weird' or 'nasty' cannot be considered to be a healthy society.
    A= Asexual. Both Paul and Jesus supported asexuality in writing, and I've never heard of any society that condemned it, although hypocritical societies have been known to view asexuals with intense mistrust, assuming them to be hiding their true sexual natures.
    Polyamory = Men were allowed to be in polyamory under mosaic law because they were allowed to lay with tgheir slaves. Women in Bi-relationships with one husband and a woman were polyamorists.
    Polygamy = Well, you already know what the World is going to say about that in connection with bahai. The faxt that Bahauallah married four times, having three wives at one time, however you want to 'word-salad' bahai out of it, produces such a severe picture of hypocrisy as can never be explained away. Bahauallah continued with three wives for a very very long time imo.

    So....... up to this point your only supporters are people like the POTUS, so good luck with that. Now let's look at the ridiculous siuation with Bahai Heterosexual marriage.

    A couple meets, may never know each other completely until after marriage, and so engage and undertake an extremely short period of preparation for a marriage. They marry and can find that they are totally unsuited to each other from first night, even. There is often one pregnancy or birth before separation and then the one year before divorce. In such a puritanical world I don't expect there will be that much emphasis on sexual therapy or counselling. And then round they can all go again.

    This is not the blueprint for a successful society with a high % of truly happy and satisfied folks.

    Having children is an entirely separate subject and nothing to do with people having the right to marry or enter civil-partnerships. Those couples that cannot have children naturally may wish to adopt, or not.
     
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