How are these Great Beings explained?

[siti]

Being entirely sane/balanced and delusional is an oxymoron.

No it isn't. A normally sane/balanced individual can even induce delusional mystical episodes deliberately (using psychedelic drugs for example). But suppose it was, as you say, impossible to be both sane and deluded, then according to Baha'i interpretations all the couple of billion Christians who subscribe to belief in the sin-atoning sacrifice of Jesus and his literal physical resurrection are not only deluded but insane? Professionally, you can say you don't count religious beliefs as delusions, but theologically you can't dodge the issue that easily.

 

[Dawnofhope]

No it isn't. A normally sane/balanced individual can even induce delusional mystical episodes deliberately (using psychedelic drugs for example). But suppose it was, as you say, impossible to be both sane and deluded, then according to Baha'i interpretations all the couple of billion Christians who subscribe to belief in the sin-atoning sacrifice of Jesus and his literal physical resurrection are not only deluded but insane? Professionally, you can say you don't count religious beliefs as delusions, but theologically you can't dodge the issue that easily.

As a Baha'i I don't believe that Jesus was literally physically resurrected or the literal sin-atoning sacrifice (ie atoning for Adam's original sin). But I don't consider Christian's delusional, just mistaken about those two particular beliefs. Christ did not teach either of these beliefs.

 

[CG Didymus]

Revelation 13:3
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

The expansion of the caliphate under the Umayyads: Expansion under Muhammad, 622–632 (brown) Expansion during the Rashidun Caliphate, 632–661 (red) Expansion during the Umayyad Caliphate, 661–750 (yellow)

If it had covered a Pope or the British Empire then the sceptics would be saying what about Islam? The Islamic caliphate existed for nearly 1300 years. Its empires have ruled over the Holy Land for most of that time. How long did the British Empire or even the Catholics rule over the Holy Land? Not long! Who is the best candidate to be the Gentiles who trampled the Holy Land underfoot? The Caliphates of course.

Think about Noah and the response of the peoples to Noah's message and the consequences of failing to do so. Consider the response of the Jewish people to Christ and their subsequent plight. Consider the perversion of Islam and what happened. What happened to the Caliphate and Persian empires that opposed the Baha'i revelation. How about Napoleon III and Czar Alexandra II of Russia? What has been the consequence of humanities failure to respond to the Divine summons to the Kings and Rulers of the earth? What further judgement on the peoples of the world for their failure to heed Baha'u'llah's message today? Woe is quite an appropriate word, wouldn't you think?

Rev 13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
​

You said that the 7 headed, 10 horned beast being referenced several times it is the same beast. One is a red dragon. The other the leopard etc and one has 10 crowns the other 7. The dragon gives power and authority to the beast. This beast was given power 42 months.

Who is the red dragon? Who is the beast with the leopard etc stuff? Are you saying both are the Ummayad dynasty? If yes then did they last 42 months? No. Do they sound like they are same creature? No.

It says in verse 8... all that dwell upon the earth shall worship this beast, except those whose names are written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Who is this Lamb that was slain? Jesus, the Bab or Baha'u'llah? Only problem, this is more than 1000 years before the Baha'i Faith began.

Then comes another beast in verse 11. And you said this was the Abbasids? Here's the link to the Ummayads and the Abbasids. "The Abbasids were members of the Hashim clan, rivals of the Umayyads... Around 746, Abu Muslim... successfully initiated an open revolt against Umayyad rule..." But here's what Revelation says about the relationship between the two beasts:

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
​

The Abbasids did not cause everyone to worship the first beast. And none of these dynasties lasted the 42 month/1260 years. But this part of the prophecy comes long after the Second Woe. I don't get why the redundancy of the 1260 years. But, if you are comfortable "adapting" the prophecies to fit the Baha'i story then fine. Let's move on to the rest of Revelation.

 

[siti]

Christ did not teach either of these beliefs.

How do you know that? Moreover, this is not just a question of "those two particular beliefs" - it is the entire foundation of the Christian religion and the basis on which individual Christians base their day to day decision-making in regard to their expected eternal future. If these doctrines are not true, there is no question that the vast majority of Christians are deluded. But I dare say most of them would be otherwise quite sane.

 

[CG Didymus]

As a Baha'i I don't believe that Jesus was literally physically resurrected or the literal sin-atoning sacrifice (ie atoning for Adam's original sin). But I don't consider Christian's delusional, just mistaken about those two particular beliefs. Christ did not teach either of these beliefs.

John 20:24-28

24 Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
​

Somebody's delusional. Either whoever wrote the gospel of John is wrong or delusional... or the Baha'is are wrong. Unfortunately, with the answer Abdu'l Baha gives, only one can be correct. The gospel writers versus Abdu'l Baha.

Here's what Abdu'l Baha said:

"By the "three days' of His death is meant that after the great martyrdom, the penetration of the divine teachings and the spread of the spiritual law became relaxed on account of the crucifixion of Christ. For the disciples were somewhat troubled by the violence of divine tests. But when they become firm, that divine spirit resurrected and that body - which signifies the divine word - arose."

For me, this in no way makes sense with the gospel stories. No need to try and explain it again. I understand that the Baha'i interpretation makes sense to you... Sorry, but not to me.

 

[CG Didymus]

How do you know that? Moreover, this is not just a question of "those two particular beliefs" - it is the entire foundation of the Christian religion and the basis on which individual Christians base their day to day decision-making in regard to their expected eternal future. If these doctrines are not true, there is no question that the vast majority of Christians are deluded. But I dare say most of them would be otherwise quite sane.

It sure seems like you are right. So many strange religious beliefs held by, otherwise, sane people. Just within Christianity there is so many different doctrines and beliefs, and each thinks they are right and the others are deluded. And all of them probably think the Baha'is are deluded.

 

[Dawnofhope]

How do you know that? Moreover, this is not just a question of "those two particular beliefs" - it is the entire foundation of the Christian religion and the basis on which individual Christians base their day to day decision-making in regard to their expected eternal future. If these doctrines are not true, there is no question that the vast majority of Christians are deluded. But I dare say most of them would be otherwise quite sane.

The word delusion is carefully used in psychiatry, and as explained religious beliefs that are held by a group or community are excluded.

I believe we should be extremely careful about the way we use language, especially in regards to words like deluded. It is inflammatory to label someone's beliefs as deluded simply because they differ from our own.

The Christians for over a thousand years believed the earth to be the centre of the universe. Copernicus and Galileo proved that it wasn't. It took time for Christians to accept a different world view (literally) but they did eventually. The beliefs in resurrection and salvation are extremely important believes to both Baha'is and Christians. Clearly Christians and Baha'is have different perspectives about these core beliefs. This should never be a cause to demean the values and beliefs of another.

A belief in the resurrection literally is no more grounds for insanity than someone who doesn't hold this belief. There is no known association between the presence and absence of this belief and mental disorder. Accompanying a belief in the physical resurrection are many other excellent Christian morals and attitudes concerning love and forgiveness that both Baha'is and Christians would more readily find common ground.

 

[CG Didymus]

That's a pretty detailed application for a prophecy that is (a) out of date and (b) unreliably transmitted. Again, I'm sorry to butt in, but Baha'is can't have it both ways - either the Christian scriptures (as we currently have them) are not reliable - in which case you can't cherry pick prophecies in them to suit your argument - or they are - in which case there is no reason to invoke not one, but two "more legitimate" revisions of God's revelation - the Qur'an and the writings of Baha'u'llah are therefore at best superfluous.

You are not at all butting in. Come on in and join the fun. I wish some Christians would join in too. But I think they don't take the Baha'is all that serious. I think they should, since they are either right or totally wrong and are possibly one of the beasts in Revelation.

But definitely, the Baha'i use what they want and reject other things by re-interpreting them to suit their beliefs. Actually, even the prophecies are interpreted to suit their needs too. A dynasty, the Ummayads, that lasted less then 200 years is made into a beast that has power for 1260 years.

 

[siti]

The word delusion is carefully used in psychiatry, and as explained religious beliefs that are held by a group or community are excluded.

I believe we should be extremely careful about the way we use language, especially in regards to words like deluded. It is inflammatory to label someone's beliefs as deluded simply because they differ from our own.

The Christians for over a thousand years believed the earth to be the centre of the universe. Copernicus and Galileo proved that it wasn't. It took time for Christians to accept a different world view (literally) but they did eventually. The beliefs in resurrection and salvation are extremely important believes to both Baha'is and Christians. Clearly Christians and Baha'is have different perspectives about these core beliefs. This should never be a cause to demean the values and beliefs of another.

A belief in the resurrection literally is no more grounds for insanity than someone who doesn't hold this belief. There is no known association between the presence and absence of this belief and mental disorder. Accompanying a belief in the physical resurrection are many other excellent Christian morals and attitudes concerning love and forgiveness that both Baha'is and Christians would more readily find common ground.

You are (again) equating delusion with insanity. That is not only demeaning to people who hold mistaken beliefs, it is demeaning to people who suffer psychotic delusional episodes. They are not insane, they are deluded. By delusional I don't mean insane, I mean contrary to reality or reason. Any belief that is held despite superior contrary evidence is delusional - geocentrism was not a delusion before we had compelling evidence for heliocentrism - but it would be delusional to hold that view now.

Beliefs should be assayed by weighing the available evidence to determine whether the belief is likely to be true or not. Is it more likely to be true that an otherwise relatively insignificant 18th century Persian merchant really was "the essence of God and his Being" (as the Bab described himself) or is it more likely that he was having a grandiose delusion of the religious kind?

 

[Dawnofhope]

You are (again) equating delusion with insanity.

That's because it is the only time I personally would use the word. You are of course free to call every religious adherent deluded, but that is extreme IMHO.

That is not only demeaning to people who hold mistaken beliefs, it is demeaning to people who suffer psychotic delusional episodes. They are not insane, they are deluded. By delusional I don't mean insane, I mean contrary to reality or reason.

This echos of Richard Dawkins in his book the God delusion. Its a rather aggressive form of atheism, but I understand why people would feel that way.

You were a theist for 40 years ? JW

What changed for you?

Oh btw, careful what you say, I might psychoanalyse you...just joking.

Any belief that is held despite superior contrary evidence is delusional - geocentrism was not a delusion before we had compelling evidence for heliocentrism - but it would be delusional to hold that view now.

The problem with some religious beliefs is we are unable to prove or disprove them using traditional scientific analysis. However beliefs such as a literal physical resurrection of Jesus where He ascends into the stratosphere is clearly impossible along with the story of Noahs Ark, Adam and Eve, and the creation of the earth in six days, six thousand years ago. There are just too many contradictions with science even accounting for an Omnipotent God that can perform miracles.

Beliefs should be assayed by weighing the available evidence to determine whether the belief is likely to be true or not.

I agree.

Is it more likely to be true that an otherwise relatively insignificant 18th century Persian merchant really was "the essence of God and his Being" (as the Bab described himself) or is it more likely that he was having a grandiose delusion of the religious kind?

You could say the same about Jesus too, who made similar claims.

At the end of day we each need to read the reality of our own lives and follow what works for us. Atheism doesn't work for me, but it could be the perfect world view for you.

 

[oldbadger]

Just a side-note since you used the word Nagarra.

Did you know that the word is associated with "crafting" in the Sorcerer sense?

A related word is Nachash = Serpent, - Hiss an incantation, - a Sorcerer.

Kharash and tekton are also related to nagar.

Serpent is Naga in India, Nagash in Babylonian, and Nachash in the Bible. All of them are associated with Sorcery.

Both the Indian Naga Serpents and the Hebrew Nachash Serpents are associated with magic. In fact one word for magic in the Bible is nachash – To (snake) hiss/whisper an incantation.

And Jesus was called a Sorcerer.

Origen said Jesus was never described as a carpenter in the Gospels.

*

Don't go away.........
... crafting............ sorcerer ...... Kharash and tekton ... nagar ... nacash ... nagash ... magic.

Could I just push this a little further.... ?
QUESTION: Magi? Could a person who, on the balance of possibilities, did accomplish extraordinary healing and other actions be called a magi? Would thgis not fit in with the above descriptions?

QUESTION: Balancing and weighing all, do you believe that this person, this name, was actually built up from a real character? I do.

 

[oldbadger]

Tiruvalluvar (Tirukural) said, "A man is rich just so long as he doesn't spend more than he earns."

Excellent.
Dicken's 'Micawber' and his twenty shilling annual income plan followed exactly the above, although I expect that Dickens himself was a two-faced monster.

Boss stayed home with the kids while I worked, and I'd get asked how we could afford a holiday (pilgrimage for us). I'd just laugh, because I knew the answer but also knew the other person wasn't ready to hear it.

So your holidays were truly 'Holy Days'....

"We don't smoke or drink. We own a cheaper car. I change the oil. We can wear used clothing. We never eat out. We never buy compulsively. We rent movies." etc...

Ha ha! I love this. We both have the same tiny car but mine, which is also in roadworthy condition, is mothballed and never used in case the other might break beyond repair. I travel with a free OAP bus pass and folding bicycle. My wife doesn't buy many clothes, or shoes, or bags, or anything. I never did buy posh clothes.
In fact, when we married I wanted two wedding rings in x and y sizes because I wanted titanium rings for self, because they have no value for any person apart from myself, these the most valuable possessions in my life. You cannot enlarge a titanium ring so I'm covered if I should put weight on!

All around have got everything and treat us as if the poor neighbours, yet they are ridden with the burden and stress of debts. We could buy out any two of them completely and pay all their debts, loans and mortgages.

So yes, needing less certainly works. In retirement, I'm still working on how to spend money. We have way more than we need.

Ha ha!
My wife loves charity shops and can't ever think of anything that we need.

She would not go away.... if by some accident she won a weekend in New York with £5000 spending money she would not go, not even if she had to go to collect that money. She would never leave our two little dachshund dogs, two cats or ducks.

The school system here is based on a secular humanist model, and very little else. So morality has to be subtle, by example. Yes I read 'Teaching as a Subversive Activity' lol.

Yes. I never did have much respect for the adult lesson plans which I had to deliver either. I wrote for our national security magazine for 15 years, having my own page during the last 4 of those, and I trained security and retail investigation operatives for decadess, and the national government lesson plans which were introduced circa 2003 were inept, quite inept ..... the whole education, quaslification, licensing system as introduced was a money-go-round. Embarrasing really.

 

[oldbadger]

I don't know - but I'll look it up in DSM-5 - maybe some kind of mild "detachment from reality" psychosis or something like that.

The Bab still has a small following of 'Babis' who only identify with him alone and his mission, or vocation.

There was fighting and death between Babis and Bahais when Bahauallah renamed himself and brought about the schism from the Babis religion.

For a more clear picture of all, I suspect that Babis could add to the truth of the Bab's life, mission and death.

 

[oldbadger]

.... .......... Of course you need to get enough people to believe as you do, to avoid being diagnosed as psychotic.

Yep...... there is safety in numbers, in many differing ways.

Messianic claims are not too infrequent amongst psychiatric inpatients. They generally don't attract too many followers.

I used to have tea with a few of those. I would visit my wife at the research clinic at Guys, and also at St Augustines, and we would go to a cafeteria for tea and a chocolate bar.

I rarely got to eat my chocolate bar, because whenever I looked up or around it would have dissappeared when I looked back. Amazing.

After a while one finds oneself covering one's mug and chocolate bar with arms and peering from side to side with lowered head to protect all. In other words, looking like many of the patients.

'Care in the community' has had its failures and its successes, but for the most part I think that it is very good. A middle aged man walks around this town, shouting and waving his arms about, but he has a car and is fully licensed to drive it. He becomes more 'frantic' when some political 'newsflash' has broken. When he is speaking with till-operators in shops he is perfectly capable and clear. Back in the day that man would never have had freedom.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yep...... there is safety in numbers, in many differing ways.

There is certainly helps being part of a Faith community.

I used to have tea with a few of those. I would visit my wife at the research clinic at Guys, and also at St Augustines, and we would go to a cafeteria for tea and a chocolate bar.

I rarely got to eat my chocolate bar, because whenever I looked up or around it would have dissappeared when I looked back. Amazing.

After a while one finds oneself covering one's mug and chocolate bar with arms and peering from side to side with lowered head to protect all. In other words, looking like many of the patients.

I have a friend with bipolar disorder who comes out of the wooodwork when he gets manic. Its usually this time of the year watching the football in your part of the world. Of watching it live its through the night here and he doesn't sleep. His religion is Liverpool, and he tells me I'll never walk alone...

He likes to visit the Baha'is or the Anglicans, on the basis of the free tea and biscuits.

He is confounded by religion and wonders why no ones recognised him as the messiah.

Care in the community' has had its failures and its successes, but for the most part I think that it is very good. A middle aged man walks around this town, shouting and waving his arms about, but he has a car and is fully licensed to drive it. He becomes more 'frantic' when some political 'newsflash' has broken. When he is speaking with till-operators in shops he is perfectly capable and clear. Back in the day that man would never have had freedom.

I doubt there would be too many in the health sector who want to turn back the clock and have so many institutionalised. As long as there is the resources in the community to provide supports then its fiine.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The Bab still has a small following of 'Babis' who only identify with him alone and his mission, or vocation.

There was fighting and death between Babis and Bahais when Bahauallah renamed himself and brought about the schism from the Babis religion.

For a more clear picture of all, I suspect that Babis could add to the truth of the Bab's life, mission and death.

The purpose of the Bab's Revelation was to prepare His followers for Him whom God shall make manifest. The Bab intended Baha'u'llah and that was recognised by most of the Babi's who eventually converted. Mirza Yahya, Baha'u'llah's half brother became jealous and felt threatened.

Bahá’u’lláh’s emergence as the leader of the community of the Báb’s followers increasingly aroused the intense jealousy of Mirza Yahya, His ambitious, younger half-brother. Mirza Yahya made several shameless efforts to slander Bahá’u’lláh’s character and sow seeds of suspicion and doubt among His companions. To remove Himself from being the cause of tension, Bahá’u’lláh retired to the mountains of Kurdistan, where He remained for two years, reflecting on His divine purpose. This period of His life was reminiscent of Moses' withdrawal to Mount Sinai, Christ’s days in the wilderness, and Muhammad's retreat in the Arabian hills.


Yet even in this remote region, Bahá’u’lláh’s fame spread. People heard that a man of extraordinary wisdom and eloquence was to be found there. When such stories reached Baghdad, the Bábís, guessing Bahá’u’lláh’s identity, dispatched a mission to implore Him to return.


Residing once more in Baghdad, Bahá’u’lláh reinvigorated the Báb’s followers; the stature of the community grew and His reputation spread ever further. He composed three of His most renowned works at this time—the Hidden Words, the Seven Valleys and the Book of Certitude (Kitáb-i-Íqán). While Bahá’u’lláh’s writings alluded to His station, it was not yet the time for a public announcement.


As Bahá’u’lláh’s fame spread, the envy and malice of some of the clergy was rekindled. Representations were made to the Shah of Iran to ask the Ottoman Sultan to remove Bahá’u’lláh further from the Iranian border. A second banishment was decreed.

At the end of April 1863, shortly before leaving the environs of Baghdad for Istanbul (known as Constantinople in the English language of the time), Bahá’u’lláh and His companions resided for twelve days in a garden which He named Ridván, meaning “Paradise”. There, on the banks of the River Tigris, Bahá’u’lláh declared Himself to be the One heralded by the Báb—God’s Messenger to the age of humanity’s collective maturity, foretold in all the world's scriptures.

The Life of Bahá’u’lláh | What Bahá’ís Believe

As for Mirza Yahya:

Subh-i-Azal - Wikipedia

 

[Dawnofhope]

Paul's goggledegook ideas were nothing to do with Jesus.

The Baha'is are in agreement with most Christians who would see Paul as being completely worthy as an apostle of Christ, although the two never met (unless you count the road to Damascus).

Once we accept Paul and the books that make up the NT as in keeping with the spirit of Christ's Teachings, then the issue of the New Covenant and its implications become clear. I don't need to remove books from the NT to support my worldview. You do. We have a very different POV and I accept that.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not at all, to lean upon religious numerology and/or prophecy in order to prove your religion, yet to dismiss other spiritual subjects such as astrology, mediums, healing etc is farcical.

Who knows...... if enough levity is directed at such double-think maybe such claims will dissipate like the emphasis on Bahai miracles dissipated?

So religions like Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam are farcical because they don't have astrology and mediums, but are prophetic?

Hmmm, lets just chalk that one up as another agree to disagree, don't you think?

 

[Dawnofhope]

meant that when I was working, the daily commute between home and school was my main break. Society as it functions today, has less free time than is healthy for most humans. At one time, in some egalitarian societies, the maximising of free time was a core value. Today, that is largely replaced by profit. I had the opportunity, as retirement approached, to cut back on the hours. We need more of that, in my view. 'Hard work' (at all costs) is a protestant work ethic we can do without. It ruins people.

Many school teachers can not afford to live in our biggest city Auckland because rental prices have become so high, and couples can't afford to buy a home. We therefore end up with a shortage of teachers where we need it most.

Many doctors here, especially in hospitals are burning out.

Burnout rife among senior doctors and dentists working in public hospitals - ASMS

More free time. Great!

did not know what the statue was, and had to ask, the first time Siva introduced himself.

Sounds like quite an experience. You were quite young at the time?

For wiser people, religion can indeed make them better people, a benefit to mankind. For others, it is a downer, a detriment, a crutch, a blemish on humanity, an incite to anger. Personally, I think it has more to do with the person than with the religion, although some religions may be more conducive to positive change within an individual. Others teach a dull flock mentality with little freedom for independent thought at all.

I'm impressed that you have made Hinduism work for you, something I'm convinced I never could have done.

 

[Vinayaka]

Many doctors here, especially in hospitals are burning out.

Sounds like quite an experience. You were quite young at the time?

I'm impressed that you have made Hinduism work for you, something I'm convinced I never could have done.

Yes medical professionals burn out. The demands are absurd. A few other professions as well. I could never be a policeman.

I was 18 or 19.

Making a mystic religion work for you, is easy when your soul sees it. But I feel the same amazement about Baha'i'. It has so many contradictions and fallacies. The ability to see through them is truly astonishing to me. But it demonstrates how rigid the natural mental processes can be.