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Featured How are these Great Beings explained?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by loverofhumanity, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Again, it's a simple question. What have you read, or is just what the Baha'i' have posted, which are often really out of context?
     
  2. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Effendi knew Tamil? (Old Tamil AND new Tamil?) Sanskrit? Cantonese? Mandarin? Perhaps you'tre just saying he was a master at Persian and Arabic though, it's hard to tell what you're trying to say.
     
  3. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    This is a very important point. I have had many discussions with Christians about Christian topics and having an understanding of how the original sacred texts were written and in what language and in what context can be critical to understanding some verses. The OT is written in Hebrew but a translation into Koine Greek called the Septuagint was very much in the few centuries up until the time of Christ due to the Greek then Roman Empires occupying Judea/Israel. Jesus himself was though to speak Aramaic and Greek, and the early gospels were thought to be written in Greek, though there is discussion about a Hebrew version of Matthew. The Greek was later translated into Latin and then into English for the first time over 400 years ago with the King James bible. Understanding this history and some Greek and Hebrew can be very helpful to better grasp the subtleties and nuances of the NT and OT.

    Baha'u'llah's revelation is recorded in both Persian and Arabic. We rely on good quality translation, and there have been Baha'is that have published their own translations according to their particular understanding that have not been authorised and have created confusion.

    No doubt the history of sacred texts in Hinduism that includes some of the most ancient texts known, will have much more complex issues attached, making it even more difficult to properly understand. I recognise, that I'm completely out of my depth here. Baha'is who have been Hindu's and have a deep understanding of both religions are required and what's missing on this thread. No amount of reading that any of the Baha'is here do, is likely to come close. We are all outsiders. Moojan Momen's book has a similar 'outsider' problem.
     
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  4. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    One of the additional problems is that the languages themselves evolve. All of us here would have a vague understanding of Olde English, but most would have difficulty understanding Shakespeare and his ilk really well, (I certainly miss a lot) and that's only a few hundred years, not 2000. The same applies to most languages. The Tirumanthiram was written in old Tamil. My Tamil friends couldn't read it. So any translation of old scriptures involves a double translation actually. First to a modern form of the language it was written in, and then to English, or whatever other language people want to take it to. So yes its hard. Surely much gets lost.

    Interesting what you say about some Baha'i' translators. In Hinduism we don't have any single authority to 'authorise' anything. So we get plenty of translations of many of the books, and scholars or interested people can compare. Too bad there is no such opportunity for the Bahai's. That seems to limit this idea of 'investigation'. Perhaps somebody actually did do a more useful translation, and that's too bad. I guess it's one of the pitfalls of having a hierarchy of power who tell you what you can and cannot read.
     
  5. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Who thought that Jesus could speak Greek?
    Yeshua was a Galilean handworker in thre second order of land-displaced peasants. Who paid for Galilean peasants to be so well educated? I expect that even Galilean children were working at a very young age.
     
  6. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Its simply ensuring adequate quality.

    We are a young religion that is not well known or understood. People with their own agendas can translate it to make it say what they want to say. We therefore rely on authorised translations.
     
  7. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I assume it's your central authority, the Universal House of Justice, that does the authorising?

    BTW, I believe everyone has an agenda.
     
  8. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    A person is 100% free to read what they wish to.

    The choice may be akin to swiming in a pool of contaminated mud, or a pool of pure water.

    Regards Tony
     
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  9. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    How do you know that? If there were two or three translations available for a certain book, and you were actually interested in the message of the book, I think it would be wise to read more than one translation. It would expand your knowledge, no? In surveys on the Bhagavad Gita or the Upanishads,famous Hindu scriptures, you'll get maybe 10 different translations that somebody will claim to be 'my favorite'. But yes, some people in Hinduism would also refer to some translations as 'contaminated mud' or some other hate-filled idea, if it didn't suit their agenda.

    I personally try to avoid translations, but more importantly commentary, done by Christians, because it has a bias, and wording from 'outside' as Adrian said. A common scheme is to compare a passage to some Bible passage, often with condescending tones. But this isn't always the case, and of course we can look for ourselves. Perhaps you already have.
     
  10. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    edited: I don't expect an anwer to this question, but it's worth a shot, I suppose.
     
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  11. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Aramaic, almost certainly.

    Greek, probably. He certainly travelled beyond Galilea. Koine Greek was the Lingua Franca not to mention the Septuagint in common usage.

    Did Jesus Speak Greek?
     
  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Sources:

    1. Insight for Living
    2. Micah 5:1-5

    Remember. I do not believe in god. So, you would need to give me an explanation directly from the bible. Bahaullah said what he said but he is not christian nor jewish.

    In Christianity, they are talking about Jesus not Bahaullah.

    Tony. I can't comment on Bahaullah's view. I also cannot understand nor read all the links in one sitting. You have to pick out your points and explain them in your own words.

    Take your time.

    It isn't a chat room and I'm about to go skating in an hour anyway.

    Edit: Oh. Also, Micah isn't part of the Torah. How does a descendant of Abraham make Bahaullah a prophet descendant of the Jews (as the chosen people) and not the Gentiles?


    [​IMG]
    Later folks.
     
    #12072 Unveiled Artist, Oct 15, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
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  13. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    I also try to find what is the closest to the original intent of what was originally said and intended.

    This gets harder as the religion gets older. The mess the world has made with Muhammad, the Koran and the intent is the best of examples. The Bible a close 2nd.

    I see the comantries in the Bible as the warning to not add to the book.

    As for Hinduism, Buddhisim and Zoroastrian writings, I can comment less as I have read less of them and the culture. Commments from You and Carlita have shown that the Hindu and Buddhist Faiths are quite a diversity of thought and it appears to me, they have undolded in a much more harmonious and accepting way than the two aforementioned Faiths.

    I guess at this point our two paths in Faith show our diversity of thought. My journey only started in 1984. Prior to that I had a limited Christain upbringing with some Sunday School as a child in the mix. My mother and Grandmother had high moral values and as an example and they lived them. I had no interest in Faith of any kind. My Father an Athiest. In 1984 when I was shown the writings of Baha'u'llah it was as a torrent of amazement to me. I had always considered, if there was a God, then all must point towards that.

    Thus from that point on I have just continued to find the connection and I have never been dissapointed, apart from the result of my own choices. I attempt not look at anything without trying to see the source within.

    As you say different points of reference.

    In the end, you and I can live at peace and work with each other while we Love God in the way we have chosen. That has to be better than what we see on tye news each morning!

    All the best wishes, Regards Tony
     
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  14. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    There is nothing to my knowledge about Midian in the bible other than he was the son of Abraham. Genesis 25:5-8

    However we have the Midianites who were descendants of Midian

    Midian - Wikipedia

    Yes

    'And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;'
    Genesis 26:4

    Baha'u'llah was also a descendant of Jesse, and there is a specific prophecy in Isaiah 11:1-10


    The link you sent appears to confuse Muslims and Arabs. Muhammad was born 570 AD, so centuries after the NT books were composed.

    Baha'u'llah does not appear in the Bible, for exactly the same reason as Jesus does not appear in the Tanakh. The Jews could not see Jesus fulfilling their prophecies and the Christians can not see Baha'u'llah fulfilling theirs.

    Only Mormons believe Joseph Smith heard from God.

    We are Baha'is and believe in Baha'u'llah. So the Christians see us as lost souls just as everyone else. As the Jews think Christians have got it wrong, Christians think Baha'is have got it wrong.

    Muhammad and Islam emerged from the Arabia Peninsula so the locality is very significant. Persia is much more significant though. As the Jewish King David prefigured the Jewish Spiritual King Jesus, the Persian King Cyrus (the anointed one in Isaiah 44:28. Isaiah 45:1-2) prefigured the Persian Spiritual King Baha'u'llah.

    I hope that helps.:)
     
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  15. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    And didn't Buddha say, :If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him?"
     
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  16. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    But how exactly can one do that? You don't read Persian do you? Is it the original intent, or what best suits yourself, and how you intuitively view the world? In a way I feel it is like poetry or art. The only person who actually knows the intent or objective is the author, or the artist. The rest of us are merely conjecturing.

    Lots of commentators say things like, "Oh, he didn't really mean that." Bahai's do this with the many parts of the world's scriptures. Seems to me that is a flawed approach ... to think you can pass that sort of judgement on a book, better even than the adherents themselves can. Best to not read it at all that make your own interpretations as you go along.
     
  17. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    That is not at all uncommon in seekers, sticking with the first thing that makes any sense at all. I think it's a natural tendency, yet most likely hinders any further exploration at the same time. It's like finding a girl who'll actually go out with you. Hard to refuse that.
     
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  18. Dawnofhope

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  19. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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  20. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Read the link. The Buddha didn't say it.
     
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