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Featured How are these Great Beings explained?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by loverofhumanity, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Windmills of your mind

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    Wow.
     
  2. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Windmills of your mind

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    Adrian, it's just by definition nothing negative (I hope) behind the word of hybrid.

    Since the purpose of all these divine “mirrors” is one and the same, no distinction should be made between Them. Bahá’u’lláh writes, “If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith.”4

    When you combine or make a hybrid of something, you're literally integrating them into one. So that the different colors of the rainbow become one because they go together in the same direction. The different rays come from one sun. The different flowers of one garden.

    Without the hybrid, integration, or unification (unity) nature of your faith with the different manifestations, then The Buddha, Krishna, and Zoroaster would not lead to the god of abraham.

    In and of itself, there is nothing wrong with hybrid religions. Catholicism is a hybrid religion as such many Pagan religions are. The purpose of your religion is not wrong nor negative. It's the execution and facts of each manifestation that leads to your religion's conclusion that to non baha'i is off not just by opinion but logically in some cases and in others as I noticed historically as well.

    It has nothing to do with your purpose just the facts and execution that leads to implementing it.
     
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  4. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    "It appears then that the Bahá'í Faith in America, at least, has developed historically as a successful synthesis of Christianity and Islam…

    …I propose that the actual experience and practice of American Bahá'ís is not a mere imperfect reflection of Islamic contexts, but is a living religion in which the traditions and religious assumptions of both Islam and Christianity have been blended in organic unity."


    Anthony A. Lee, Reconciling the Other: The Baha'i Faith in America as a Successful Synthesis of Christianity and Islam (1995)

    "The Baha'i Faith is less eager to use the word [syncretism] but they are quick to claim lineage with all existing religious traditions."

    Christopher Hartney, Syncretism and the End of Reigion(s), Sydney Studies in religion (2008)

    https://openjournals.library.sydney.edu.au/index.php/SSR/article/viewFile/231/210

    "The Baha’i faith is thus, to a large extent, syncretistic."

    Mohamed Omar Salem and John Foskett in Religion and Reigious Experiences, Chapter in Spirituality and Psychiatry, p.242, (2009)
     
    #11344 siti, Oct 1, 2017
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  5. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    Abdul'baha gives us a good way to think about this when He replied to a lady that said she was a Christain, this is part of that reply.

    "....Thou didst begin thy letter with a blessed phrase, saying: ‘I am a Christian.’ O would that all were truly Christian! It is easy to be a Christian on the tongue, but hard to be a true one. Today some five hundred million souls are Christian, but the real Christian is very rare: he is that soul from whose comely face there shineth the splendour of Christ, and who showeth forth the perfections of the Kingdom; this is a matter of great moment, for to be a Christian is to embody every excellence there is. I hope that thou, too, shalt become a true Christian. Praise thou God that at last, through the divine teachings, thou hast obtained both sight and insight to the highest degree, and hast become firmly rooted in certitude and faith. It is my hope that others as well will achieve illumined eyes and hearing ears, and attain to everlasting life: that these many rivers, each flowing along in diverse and separated beds, will find their way back to the circumambient sea, and merge together and rise up in a single wave of surging oneness; that the unity of truth, through the power of God, will make these illusory differences to vanish away. This is the one essential: for if unity be gained, all other problems will disappear of themselves."

    All differences are illusions. Note all must become a single wave of surging Oneness.

    This Oneness of mind, in my opinion, does not mean sameness.

    Regards Tony
     
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  6. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Certainly it is. I thought I had even alluded to that at some point (perhaps elsewhere?) but I have said (somewhere, sometime) that perhaps Jesus not only reinterpreted OT religion but also integrated new ideas that he may have got from Buddhism and Hinduism in India and maybe even from the Druids in Glastonbury? That might be a bit far-fetched (who knows?) but his early followers certainly interpreted his teachings as more widely inclusive than OT Judaism did. Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35 and there was no longer any obstacle to, say, Roman centurions or Ethiopian eunuchs taking up the worship of the "one true God". This is another part of the paradox of religion that I referred to earlier - they all make claims of authenticity whilst unabashedly borrowing from earlier religious traditions. But perhaps the greatest irony of all is that the most strikingly obvious syncretism of (particularly) the Abrahamic faiths is their hand-me-down claim to religious "purity".
     
    #11346 siti, Oct 1, 2017
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  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Windmills of your mind

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    I am really trying to keep this short so you can read it. Bare with me.

    :leafwind:

    I know you and I have different definitions of the same words. In this case, I think you overlooked a definition. Sameness is not integration, hybrid, and unity. I did not say sameness. I said integration, unity, and hybrid. Oneness is also in these definitions. They are synonyms for the same word.

    It is not negative. When you are making something one, you are literally taking more than one thing and putting them together (making it one unit) so that they all lead to the one destination.

    1. Many rays one sun
    2. Many flowers one garden
    3. Many stars one universe

    What was the other one... Bahaullah used a lot of similes to describe unity among diversity. He did not, though, say that because they are differences, they lead to different destinations of different truths. Your post says just that "differences are illusions."

    I do not see differences as negative. I see differences leading to peace. I see unity leading to war. We have examples of this trying to make unity all throughout history creating war. However, when people accept each other's differences even in one town, all are at peace.

    Short example, being down south where there is a huge history of black and white prejudice. My family went to a Chitlin Festival and the KKK were there as were we (majority African American). We were different. Different history. Different purpose. Different goals. and we were unified because of these differences. Yes, we have horrible history and even relations are still awful but everything went well because no one tried to unify a black person and a white person with the same goal of peace. Our definitions are different and we were still unified.

    Do you understand?

    Edit I had to look back where I mentioned sameness. It's mentioned on the Bahai site as a quote that's why I indented it. What Bahai Believe: God and his Creation.
     
    #11347 Unveiled Artist, Oct 1, 2017
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  8. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    Your list is great, can I add;

    Many waves, One Sea,
    Many Leaves, One Tree.
    Many peoples, One Human Race.

    Your post is full of deep thoughts.

    Do you agree we are all part of the one Human Race, the many diverse and coloured flowers of the one garden?

    Regards Tony
     
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  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Windmills of your mind

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    Thank you for asking.

    Yes, by technicality. We naturally associate with people who are like us rather than saying we are part of a tree and sun in the same manner as we are with other human beings.

    Spiritually, I see one forest defined by different trees rather than different trees defined as or by one forest.

    Many waves, One Sea (the different level of waves make up the sea)

    Many Leaves, One Tree. (different types of leave make up [the umbrella] of one tree)

    Many peoples, One Human Race. (different humans make up one human race)

    Do you kinda get it?

    How is this negative?

    (Sorry, I edit a lot)
     
    #11349 Unveiled Artist, Oct 1, 2017
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  10. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    I'm not aware of any evidence to support Jesus having been influenced by Buddhists, Hindus, or Druids. Jesus's taught almost exclusively to Jews with reference to the OT. What is the evidence for the presence of Hindu and Buddhist communities in Judea let alone for Jesus having associated with such communities? None to my knowledge.

    I have no problem with the apostles teachings in regards to content and consistency with the teachings of Jesus as a whole. It was simply the same message Christ taught in a different cultural context with differing priorities as the Gospel needed to be taught to different lands and churches established.

    So is the teaching to tell the truth and not to kill borrowing or stealing from other cultures? I would argue it is simply restating universal truths?
     
  11. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Seriously Adrian? Is that how you interpret my comment? Or were you just deflecting? I am still waiting to hear how many serious religious scholars concur with your assessment that Baha'i is not a hybrid (or syncretistic) religion. I have posted three quotes illustrating that scholars (religious, sociological, anthropological and psychological) who have studied the subject from an impartial perspective, do indeed categorize the Baha'i faith as syncretism. Personally, I don't see this as a bad thing - but I can certainly see why a Baha'i would. It challenges the purity of the revelation - and that was the point that you misinterpreted - it is not just a question of "restating universal truths" - if that were so there really would be nothing much to choose between the various religions - it is a question of which one has the "truth" in all its divinely authored purity. And that's why, although Baha'is will get converts from all the religions (if you try hard enough) they (like Jesus) will never convert any of the other religions.
     
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  12. RoaringSilence

    RoaringSilence Active Member

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    TBH It looks like somebody made a conscious effort to try and make assorted cookies basket handpicked for comfort. That wouldn't be a bad thing if the agenda wasn't to lure people with fancy temples , or to govern and rule the world.

    ask them the right questions.. who gave the first funding.. who is currently funding them.. and why .. whoever is funding them isn't questioning why the fancy temples..
    how is it that the popular religions have modest temples and they get special fancy shmancy. im not jealous of it ...i m curious about the PEOPLE who run this thing and who FUNDED the first temple.. who funds the rest, and the whats the sales pitch behind it.

    i for one think this is an intelligentsia created mission, for a sole purpose to attract the power mongers / prophecy for land & kingdom mongers.

    That been said i dint imply that tony or adrian or most of the baha'i would be dishonest folk , they re being played so they wouldn't know either.
     
    #11352 RoaringSilence, Oct 2, 2017
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  13. RoaringSilence

    RoaringSilence Active Member

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    If you take god out of the equation for a second , and view the baha'i bizz model it is robust and threatening and trap like.
    If you include god in the equation it looks like god is TRYING HARD to fit in. and getting wiser about mistakes made in past, and trying to fit in .. i would prefer if god dint have to say , sorry guys i sent messages earlier which aren't valid anymore... so now the plans changed ..and you bow 15 times instead of 3coz times have changed and i need to update your worship methods.
     
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  14. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    A quick search of the Internet to find who has written on the subject of the Baha'i Faith being an independent religion, found many sources referencing Scholars and even High Court Rulings that have concluded the Faiths Independence.

    This is such an established Fact, that I need not say more than that and feel no need to posts links to those works, as one finds what they are looking for and I can not change the motive to do so either way, it is individual choice.

    It is not negative, if ultimately we are looking for the Unity of Humanity. This Unity requires us to direct our minds to the common good for all.

    I confirm your thought, that we should indeed associate with the like minded, as efforts to bring about the betterment of society will happen in collaboration with like minded people.

    Regards Tony
     
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  15. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    We understand the Bible refers to selfishness and the ego within us not any external force. We believe that is superstitious.

    The New Testament has explanations and meanings which are clear but some things like Revelation it says only the Lion of Juda can unravel Whom we believe to be Baha’u’llah in His Book of Certitude.

    The Baha’i Faith is not a faultless utopia. People will always be imperfect. But up till this point in history, humanity has only had infallible ‘guidance’ for the duration of a Manifestation’s Life after which religions split into sects and eventually lost touch with the spirit of the original message thus the need for constant renewal now and in the future also.

    In this day however, which is termed “the day that shall not be followed by night” we have had infallible divine guidance uninterrupted from Baha’u’llah to Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and now the Universal House of Justice.

    This infallible guidance can be followed or ignored nevertheless it is infallible. We’ve had well over 150 years of infallible guidance yet also two world wars. That simply means the guidance was ignored not wrong. It’s up to people to build a better world, that is, if they really want one.

    Many of our institutions are learning and immature and they will never be infallible. Only the House of Justice is guaranteed that.

    What we are saying is that the Teachings of Baha’u’llah are perfect and right for this age not that we are anything special or perfect. We are very imperfect. We are just saying that we believe if the world put into practice the teachings of Baha’u’llah then it would be a far better place.
     
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  16. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    Only a Baha'i can donate to the Baha'i Funds, no external Funds support any of the Work the Baha'i's do in all the Communities of the World. Thus it was Baha'i's that raised the funds for the First, then all other Temples.

    There is no forcing a person to donate, there is no soliciting for funds, only much needed encouragement to give to the Lifeblood of any cause. There is no limit either way to what a person may chooses to donate, the most important aspect being the level of detachment offered. Thus a poor person donating a piece of bread which is a great sacrifice of their daily meal, holds greater value than One that may donate a million dollars that is done with little sacrifice.

    As for the Temple in India, this is about the Land Purchase;

    "..The beloved Guardian, Shoghi Effendi, has emphasized '... the greater the sacrifice, the greater the power of the Mashriqu'l-Adhkár’.

    During the Ten Year Crusade, after approval of Shoghi Effendi was received for the land, the National Spiritual Assembly entered into negotiations with the owners of the five separate plots that were comprised in the total area of about 92,000 square metres (22.5 acres) and settled for a price of Rs. 140,289. This was a considerable sum of money for the number of believers at that time, and the National Spiritual Assembly set about raising the sum. The amount was distributed among the communities of India, Pakistan, Burma and Ceylon, then under one jurisdiction, and members of the National Assembly set out in different directions to acquaint the believers with the need and to encourage them to raise this unprecedentedly large sum. The extraordinary response of a modest and devout believer, Mr. Ardashír Rustampúr of Hyderabad, Sind, is alluded to in the 'In Memoriam’ article appearing elsewhere in this volume of the international record. As if he had waited a lifetime for this opportunity, he placed before the astonished members of the National Assembly, Mr. Isfandiar Bakhtiari and Mr. Abbas Aly Bhatt, his entire savings of Rs. 100,190 accumulated from the operation of his restaurant, remarking: 'It is not my money; all of it belongs to Bahá'u'lláh and I am happy to return it. I have been merely a trustee, a temporary keeper.’"

    There is more to that story, but this is more on raising the remainder of the funds;

    "...Fund-raising for the construction of the Temple began in a very strange way and in a most unexpected place. A Bahá'í serving a prison sentence in Mozambique had made some simple rings out of ivory and had sent one to Amatu'l-Bahá Rúhíyyih Khánum when she was in Africa. At the time of the dedication of the Panama Temple in when Rúhíyyih Khánum addressed the friends she expressed her thought that 'it would be lovely if we sent a little nest-egg from the dedication of this Temple for the next Bahá'í Temple that will be built’ and she offered the ivory ring for sale. Present at that gathering was a young Bahá'í from Hawaii who was a jeweller. Though not a wealthy man he had, in the course of his business, come into possession of a very large emerald. Impetuously, and though he could ill-afford it, he offered the valuable emerald, worth at least $25,000 to $30,000, for the inexpensive ivory ring. Later the secretary of the National Spiritual Assembly of Panama went to Hawaii especially to take charge of the emerald which had, in the meantime, been set in a large gold setting and she delivered it to Rúhíyyih Khánum during the International Convention in Haifa in 1973. Amatu'l-Bahá Rúhíyyih Khánum entrusted the beautiful gem to the members of the National Spiritual Assembly of Írán, also present at the Convention, instructing them to auction it, accept the highest bid and contribute the proceeds as the first contribution to the cost of constructing the future Mashriqu'l-Adhkár to be erected during the next teaching Plan. The emerald fetched the handsome sum of approximately $100,000. Mysterious indeed are the ways of God! The simple ivory ring made in an African prison and worth perhaps one dollar, but offered with complete sincerity and love, became the largest single contribution and the nest-egg from the Panama Temple to the Indian Temple. Nor was this the end of it, for when Rúhíyyih Khánum narrated this touching story at the time the foundation stone at of the Indian Temple was laid at Bahapur on 17 October 1977 the participants in that historic gathering were so moved that many divested themselves of their gold jewellery for the temple fund, made cash offers on the spot and pledged contributions. Thus the simple restaurateur of Hyderabad, the prisoner of Mozambique and the Hawaiian jeweller became the foremost benefactors of the Mother Temple of the Indian sub-continent and their example would be emulated by a host of equally dedicated believers throughout the Bahá'í world.

    This befitting beginning of the fund-raising was followed by a more sustained and continuous process. Interestingly, after the Indian Temple fund was announced internationally, among the first contributions to be received from abroad was from the Bahá'í children’s Moral Class of Samoa where another House of Worship was concurrently under construction. As reports of progress of construction were disseminated throughout the Bahá'í world community the slow trickle of contributions swelled to a steady flow from both east and west. All at once it appeared as though the Bahá'í world had taken the lotus Temple to its heart. Each envelope received at the Temple office brought a token of love and devotion to the Cause. The heartwarming messages that accompanied the contributions were so touching as to bring tears to the eyes. Those servants of Bahá'u'lláh from the far-flung corners of the world ceased to be faceless believers but were seen as partners with us in a great spiritual enterprise. The participation of the Bahá'ís in achieving a common spiritual goal formed a bond that linked continents and countries with Bahapur. Repeated and regular contributions were received from many individuals and communities, strengthening the bond. Was this part of the mystery of the Mashriqu'l-Adhkár spoken of by 'Abdu'l-Bahá?

    There is a lot more to that story as well - The Institution of the Mashriqu'l-Adhkár

    The Baha'i House of Worship in New Delhi, India, with more than 4 million visitors a year, is the most visited Baha'i property in the world. http://news.bahai.org/story/611/

    Regards Tony
     
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  17. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    We’re all struggling with our own imperfections and attachments to worldly things and emotions. My mother would have made a wonderful Hindu as I cannot remember her ever shouting or yelling or being angry at me.

    When I was naughty (more often than not Ha!Ha,) she would just cry. At those times I felt so ashamed. It was as if those tears were each as powerful as a tidal wave
     
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  18. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    First point is we can never take God out of any aspect of our life, nor would I ever wish to.

    It is man that has the conflicts of opinion and ideas. It is man that struggles to find the connections, it is man that feels they know better than what God offers us.

    In the end it is Gods Wisdom that prevails and mans hollow words disappear with each of us that offer them.

    Regards Tony
     
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  19. RoaringSilence

    RoaringSilence Active Member

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    1) if only bahai are donating then it makes my point triple strong ..

    a) you have successfully attracted power mongers who see the vision and benefit of ruling the world bizz model therefore find it worth investing in bahai temples.
    b) you guys are in limited numbers YET the ambition to build temples which are expensive means that your priority isnt feeding poor like bahaullah ..but whoever else is the new captain of the ship deems it fit to allocate a major percentage in that model.
    c)The Speed and duration in which the progress is happening is FISHY , if you compare it with the pace at how things happen in the natural world.Therefore a major population of your baha'i is NOT common folk, the drivers are probably the prime benefactors or major decision makers / role players of this 'rule the world" agenda.

    2) the story about indian temple ... a 100k seed still doesn't make a temple of that magnitude , besides ..if you say you guys are LUCk believing people who simply set highest ambition and get lucky coz god is on your side..and its somehow miraculous.. Then whoever is planing the fund allocation / priorities is HIGHLY deluded , you guys cannot be running on luck and talk about ruling the world on luck and making laws for "THE WORLD" on luck believing leaders.

    3) The task of uniting world religions was already done by hinduism, but without the intention of GOVERNING THE WORLD.
     
  20. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg World Citizen
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    It would be interesting to see how many Jobs were generated in India by the building of this temple and how much wealth it is now offering both Materially and Spiritually by the visitors it gets.

    Tourism "The Bahá'í House of Worship in Delhi was inaugurated to public worship in December 1986. By late 2001, it had attracted more than 70 million visitors, making it one of the most visited buildings in the world. According to the government of India, it had received over 100 million visitors by April 2014."

    "..The temple is visited by more than four million people every year with an average of more than 10,000 visitors daily. According to Bahai scripture, the House of Worship cannot have any pictures, statues or images displayed inside."

    I found this interesting;

    "..Wealthy Hindu temples such as this one are repositories for much of the $1 trillion worth of privately held gold in India – about 22,000 tonnes, according to an estimate from the World Gold Council. In 2011, one temple in south India was found to have more than $22bn in gold hidden away in locked rooms rumoured to be filled with snakes. Another has enough gold to rival the riches stashed at the Vatican, experts said.

    But little of it is contributing to the Indian economy, and now prime minister Narendra Modi’s government is looking to monetise India’s vast hidden wealth. In coming weeks, the government plans to begin a programme that will allow temples to deposit their gold into banks to earn interest and circulate in the economy, rather than sit idle in musty vaults. The gold, officials said, would be melted down and sold to jewellers...." India urges its wealthy temples to bolster the economy with gold

    Stay well stay happy and stay focused, RoaringSilence :) ;) may you always be a good friend in life.

    Regards Tony
     
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