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Featured How are these Great Beings explained?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by loverofhumanity, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    My experiences of the resurrection through the traditions of the Church is the experience and relationship with god and people. ;)How do you separate them?

    True. I actually haven't thought about doing that. I know The Buddha talks a lot about Brahma as compared to his enlightenment since before he was a Bodhisattva practicing Hinduism and esoteric rituals he concluded that the gods (Hindu) weren't the way to be enlightened. So, instead, he meditated, became enlightened, and gave his first discourse. I can't remember when he said he was a bodhisattva between the two events. He still acknowledges Brahma and the Hindu gods but not in the manner Bahai say that he "spoke" about god-especially-a god that did not exist in his country (He didn't mention Allah).

    I don't disagree that Christianity came from the OT. I mean, Jesus full bibliography is in the first pages of each gospel. I do lean towards the Jewish point of view. I'ma look at this later "Why Jews don't believe in Christ" but it looks like it has both christian and Jewish arguments of why they believe what they do. I mean, even when Jesus put himself equal to god, that was a big no-no for the Jews and I can see why.

    You believe the bible is inspired, so it's hard to make an argument against it for learning when it's like challenging god to you. Makes for a one-sided argument, ya think?

    Oh? You're Christian. How does that work. o_O

    Haha. Thank gosh. That would be a weird conversation with your friends. I learn from experiences and put things in your own words. One of your peers felt they couldn't do that as well enough as Bahaullah; so, I bite my tongue here and there. @Vinakaya is correct.

    Yeah. I notice you guys (and your websites) disagree with a lot of ritual practices. I don't know if you understand how the relationship with god and his people are interconnected with the rituals, fastings, and prayers. Not everyone is a ritual person, really.

    Exactly. I thought you guys meant the decay of the Dhamma as in the principles of life. The Buddha has Bodhisattvas and gods to protect the written Dhamma but, yes, he did say they will decay. But the Dhamma-the principles of life-will not.

    I wouldn't know. I know that they said every synagogue has the writings of Moses just as every Parish has the Eucharist. I think it's the Law of Moses, if I'm not mistaken.

    Extremely :)

    If I could separate the abrahamic god from christ's spirit and believe that god, then I'm all for it. Since I only know god of abraham through christ's spirit (sacraments), I'm kind of half in half in understanding what you're saying.

    But no worries. I like talking to you. You make me think.
     
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  2. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I think you are just making the Scriptures say, what you wanted to say. Jesus emphasized more on the Spirit of acts, rather than outward works and Laws, as the Jews were just emphasizing too much on outward Laws.
    On the other hand, Jesus, and the writers of Bible emphasized so much on Scriptures, and what is written. Here are some verses:


    "For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope."

    Romans 15:4

    "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."

    2 Timothy 3:16-17

    ".... For what does the Scripture say?...."

    Romans 4:1-25


    These and many other instances in Bible proves, the Authors of Bible, referred to Scriptures in order to validate their sayings. This is the way of discussing Religions belief from Jesus, and Authors of Bible.


    My point is not refute anyone. It is to point out that, the sources of Religions are their written Scriptures. It is the Book of a Religion, if one wants to talk about the beliefs of a particular religions. All Religions have Scriptures. The saying of Buddha, Krishna,..etc have been considered by the Scholars of Religions as the source of studying, and discussion.

    Moreover, if we want to learn about physics, we must learn it from Scientist, or those physic PHDs who wrote books. If we want to learn about History, we must learn from the history books written by good historians.
    I find it strange that when people want to learn or talk about religions, they do not want to learn it from the Founders of Religions. Instead they want use their imaginations, to make up ideas, or refer to what ordinary people (believers or non-believers) say. So, that was the point I was trying to make.
     
  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Im busy now but you are using the bible to refute the bible?

    Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    You search the Scriptures, because you suppose that in them you will find the Life of the Ages; and it is those Scriptures that yield testimony concerning me;

    John 5:39

    I cant reply to the rest of your post now but clarify this. You are telling me you rather go to scripture than to christ??? :shrug:

    I know you guys dont talk to god directly. I find that odd whether you believe god is the bible or jesus. The scriptures you quote say the inspired authors speak and testify of jesus. You depend on them as if they have eternal life. As if they are jesus himself.

    Thats silly.
     
    #9023 Unveiled Artist, Aug 17, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
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  4. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    The Baha'i sites make anything negative in the writings hard to find. Tons of "selected" writings. Others have pointed them out.

    You folks are claiming mistranslation, etc. So -

    I actually went back to other Baha'i threads here to see what people had said in the past (just put Bahai in the search above.) What I found was a consistent method of shut down. Say it wasn't from an accepted Baha'i site, - or it wasn't an accepted Baha'i translation. The "accepted" translation from the "accepted" site is never given.

    SO - if you are going to claim such - POST the ACCEPTED version so we can see for ourselves.

    Baha'ullah said,

    'You, oh friends of God, be clouds of grace for those who believe in God and his signs, and be certain torment for those who do not believe in God and are polytheists.' http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/b/MR/mr-217.html#pg216

    *
     
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  5. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    Thank you again, I had a look at the link, do not think I have read his books to date. Cost is about $120AUD to get hold of them

    I like that I have found the more we know, the more we know we do not know.

    We can only little by little day by day let the Unconstrained shine through. Self is one great battle. :) May the Unconstrained shine through all people.

    I enjoy your postings, I see a good balance.

    Prayers assured for you and all, regards Tony
     
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  6. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Post the accepted translation. Then we will see.

    *
     
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  7. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    How to make ALL "accepted" religions conform to yours -

    Just claim they have lost the original true teachings, - and your leader has God's ear, and knows all.

    *
     
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  8. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    There is no Approved English translation to date.

    Baha’u’llah, Majmū`iyi alwāḥ mubāraki, p. 216.

    "أنتم يا أحبّاء اللّه کونوا سحابَ الفضل لمن آمن باللّه
    و آياتهِ و عذابَ المحتوم لمن کفر باللّه و أمره و کان من
    المشرکين"

    Any provisional translation needs to be viewed with caution as many have been done by people hostile to the Faith, or without the knowledge to do an accurate translation.

    This passage and this topic has been discussed on Baha'i Forums in the past.

    Baha'u'llah's orders and sayings about non-Baha'is - Baha'i Forums

    Regards Tony
     
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  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Okay. Now I can do this. You can read the bible anyway you want. I'm looking at it objectively because I not see it as the word of god. It talks about god. People are inspired by god. I can write a book about god just as Moses. I don't see how time period and they're not being here to defend themselves make their words more valid than my words from the same god.

    I emphasis that you are looking at scriptures as if they obtain eternal life. Scriptures do not. Jesus is the intermediary to god in Christianity not scriptures. Scriptures talk about Christ. Christ talks for god. God gives christ his Law (another word for words of authority). He calls his Law human incarnate. That human incarnate is called the Word. That Word is called jesus christ. When you talk to jesus christ, you're talking of the Word. Jesus testifies to the words of the bible. When you read them, you read about christ.

    When you talk to christ, you talk to god. It is very easy to understand.

    Also, outward acts are what you do to worship god. Without the acts, what do you, stand still?

    Jesus emphasis Hebrew scriptures because they talk of the Word of god. Logically, when you go to a book to find god, you are using it as an idol. That is why jesus said the Jews were looking to scripture in the wrong way. They were using scripture as an idol to god's son.

    For example, above talks of instruction for people to have hope. Yes, people go to scripture for guidance but do not replace guidance and instruction for the person who gave it. That is jesus point.

    Another example, all the authors have been inspired by god. You would never have Moses tell you he wrote the tablets god (not Bahaullah) written as Laws for His (not Moses's People). Muhammad would never tell you the Quran was written by him. Bahai, it seems, and Christians are the only ones who mistake the message/Word and messengers/prophets for the person who sent them.

    Don't understand how you get it mixed up.

    Scripture points to Christ.

    I'm not saying the Bible is wrong. That's your thing not mine. I'm saying you are making the bible god. The bible testify's to christ. Christ doesn't testify to the bible. (John 5:39 is becoming my favorite verse now).

    That's your belief. Krishna has nothing to do with this.

    The Buddha's words (not Words) just talks about the principles of life. They are not sacred-sacred words do not decay. You mention his words do decay.

    The bible testify's to christ. Christ talks about the bible which testify's of him. You're looking in a book and not to christ.

    All I know of Muhammad is he would never equate a book to god and no person for that matter.

    Zoroaster I have no clue.

    If we want to learn about the Passion, we go to Christ.
    If we want to learn how to say the Lord's Prayer, we go to the Bible.

    If we want to learn how to make a relationship with god in Islam, you go to god.
    If you want to know what to say to him, you go to the Quran.

    If you want to be spiritually connected, you go to the source.
    If you want instruction and guidence so you can be connected (if you can't do it alone like Hindus and Buddhist) you go to your preferred scripture.

    Can you see the difference between the use of scripture and the source?


    Well, I don't have that negative view of people. If I did, humanity would never have peace.

    On that note, I like how people say what they mean from their experiences with their faith. For example, if someone said "this is how you pray in these exact words" I'd nod and say-okay, I understand. If someone said, "this is how I see this prayer in the eyes of god; this is what he told me." Then I say, ooooh that is how faith and spirituality works.

    Not through words but through the source.

    If you don't know the difference, it's pure idolism.

    That is the technical definition. In my opinion you can believe what you want. From Christianity, Buddhism, and Hinduism, it doesn't' work that way.
     
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  10. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Most "Pilgrims" traveled hundreds of years later. Most following Constantine's mother. She decided where these events took place.

    *
     
  11. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    How convenient. :rolleyes:

    In other words you folks telling us such, was bull. From your site.

    “And you, O friends of God, be clouds of grace for those who believe in God and his signs, and be certain torment for those who do not believe in God and are polytheists,”
    (The consensus reached regarding this quote is that some form of torment has been prescribed, this might be spiritual/mental or physical, I am not going to argue on what this torment may be)

    and

    Maediyie Asemani vol. 8
    با نفوس معرض كه اعراضشان ظاهر شده معاشرت و تكلم و ملاقات جايز نه"
    "Socializing, speaking with, and meeting those who have turned away [from Baha'u'llah] and have made apparent their turning away/denial/opposition is not allowed." (not to be mixed up with covenant-breakers)
    (The consensus reached is that speaking, meeting, and socializing with the group of people shown in bold is not allowed. I am not going to argue on which group was meant by Baha'u'llah).

    *
     
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  12. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    The person that posted this to that site is hostile to the Faith and is the source of the bad translations you post.

    You obviously went to his post, which is the first post and used the same material to confirm the inaccuracy.

    Did you not read the replies? As It then goes on to supply more incorrect translations and meanings with further advice as why they are inaccurate.

    The Baha'is attempted to give all those posts balance. There are 4 pages to this thread.

    Regards Tony
     
  13. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Yes, I read a couple of pages of replies from - people, - for and against, - not translators, or official Baha'i translation.

    It tells us this has not been translated into English. How convenient.

    I've already said it is very hard to find anything "negative" posted on the site you folks want us to use. That is very convenient to push the message you want.

    Other people challenging Baha'i, - is how we learn of problems in Baha'i teachings.

    I have repeated several times - if you don't like the translation given, - then POST the Baha'i translation. In English so we can actually read it.

    I have to agree with this reply from your site. -

    "Good morning Romane,
    The problem I see in your argument is that you are providing me with an answer that might be acceptable to a Baha'i, but inapplicable to a non-Baha'i. It sums up to something like this: "since the UHJ has not yet given a verdict on this quote or hasn't translated it, then we will simply ignore it." As as a non-Baha'i I find this justification unacceptable.

    I also find it unacceptable that every time there is a problematic/questionable law or saying in the teachings of Baha'u'llah, it is simply disregarded by using statements such as "this is intended for the future" or "the world has not yet reached the needed maturity for this law." I also find it incorrect to use Islam as an example to justify this argument. Even-though it didn't happen in a fortnight but the flowers of Islam bore fruit whilst Muhammad was still alive and the laws he provided were implemented likewise. I think 150 years are more than enough to serve the purpose."

    *
     
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  14. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    It's not about acceptance or conforming but about rejuvenating humanity spiritually. It's about raising up a new race of virtuous people, spiritual people, who will no longer tolerate war or racial, religious and national or any forms of discrimination.

    It's about re building of a peaceful society inclusive of all and a society governed by justice not money, by virtue and sanctity not personal ambition.

    We're talking here about the dawning of a world spiritual Civilisation which is where we believe humanity is headed. It's about cooperation not competition.

    The divisive influence of religious sectarianism has torn our world apart. There is no unity within religions and between religions. There is no religion today that is not divided within itself. That is because they have gone away from their original teachings to love one another.

    That is what Baha'u'llah came to bring back to our world - love for each human being for all humanity. We cannot have peace unless we all become lovers and well wishers of all humanity.
     
  15. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I think you still don't understand what Baha'u'llah is speaking about. Bodies like the League of Nations, the United Nations, the International Criminal Court, the EEU, ASEAN, these are all established by non Baha'is aren't they? They serve all humanity don't they? This is humanity coming together and working together. This is what Baha'u'llah teaches. To come together and consult together and work together for the betterment of all peoples.

    These organizations Baha'is would say are 'Baha'i inspired' because they are not Bahá'í bodies but are spoken of in our teachings before they were even established.

    So when there is a world parliament Baha'i will obey it. If the governments choose an Auxilliary world language we will support it as we do the projects of the UN and UNICEF now and many, many other humanity organizations. We are on the same side as human rights and religious equality.

    The world and its peoples are themselves establishing the teachings of Baha'u'llah by their own choice as they feel international bodies are the way to go. For some strange reason, people and governments seem to be agreeing with and implementing, of their own volition, most of the teachings and exhortations written by Baha'u'llah over a century ago.

    It's astounding! If you read and study Baha'u'llah's Words you will find they look exactly like a mirror image of what's happening in the world today. The world is uniting.

    So it's the world establishing His principles and it isn't the result of the whole world becoming Baha'i's and they are doing it of their own volition so nobody is being harmed. It's their choice.
     
  16. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I bet the world's rich and famous wished they knew how to tap into such 'luck'. But they never have been able to.

    Please note that wars, violence and hatred were never taught by any of the Manifestations so we need to make a clear distinction in our minds between what They taught and what was the behaviour of those who claimed belief and their sincerity.

    If Christ said to love your enemies and Christians go to war with each other it's impossible to blame anybody but Christians for disobedience to their own religion. People are told to love but they still have the choice to hate. We are not robots. But a Christian or Muslim who hates is not a religious person even though they may claim to be.

    All these wars you refer to are against the teachings of all the Prophets. It was always against what They taught.
     
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  17. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Hi Adrian!

    It is intriguing to note that Bahá'í pilgrims who asked 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi about Jesus's body say that both men stated that "the disciples hid the body of Christ by burying it under the wall of Jerusalem, and that it is now under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre." The Universal House of Justice adds that there is "nothing in the Writings of the Faith, however, explicitly confirming these statements.

    Resurrection and Return of Jesus

    Here is the pilgrim's note. I agree the remains are in earth.


    People wonder what happened to the body of Christ after the crucifixion. It was buried by the disciples under the wall of Jerusalem to protect it from the Roman legions. It remained buried there for some 260 years. It remained buried under the wall of Jerusalem until the mother of the Emperor Constantine, who had herself become a Christian, came to Jerusalem and had the Church of the Holy Sepulcher built – at which time the body of Christ was removed from under the wall of the city and was placed under the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. And that is where it is today. The Baha’is should be aware of this fact when they visit the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, which is the holiest place in Christendom.
     
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  18. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Just posted this same reply. Are you my twin by any chance?
     
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  19. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    I'm not too keen on espousing Baha'u'llah as the 'greatest' or 'superior', as Baha'u'llah Himself as said all the Manifestations of God are essentially equal in station. Arguing Baha'u'llah has the revelation or message to humanity that is most relevant today is a stronger position and more consistent with Baha'i theology.

    Religious education of children is quite an emotive issue for many that evokes concerns about abuse and brainwashing. In New Zealand as a secular country we don't have any official or endorsed religious education in schools at all, though there is bible studies in some school if school boards permit it but always with an opt out option.

    Religious schools are an exception, and some schools have a history of promoting a very one sided worldview.

    India is a secular country, yet there are pressures from Hindu Nationalists to have it become a Hindu country as Pakistan is Muslim. I wonder how that will play out in schools in India and what are the existing arrangements are for religious education of children in India today?
     
  20. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    It is a nice idea, - but, - obviously people are pointing out problems with some of Baha'u'llah's writings concerning Pagans, force, etc.

    You will not ever get everybody under one religion. Lots of people are Atheist, or Polytheist, and you would have to kill them, or force them into your religion. And that is why people are bringing up the more forceful writings. You don't have the right to do such. In fact it would make you no different then the other murdering religions of Abraham.

    As for that, - "It's about cooperation not competition." - You want them under your particular brand of religion, - and that is competition.

    *
     
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