How are these Great Beings explained?

[Gmcbroom]

Omega is correct. Only Jesus Christ as true God and true man is the way. All the others had some elements of truth (which survived their death) but in the end they were men and died. Even Jesus died;but the difference is he also rose again. None of the others ever have. Which one sounds the best the one who conquered death or the others who lie in wormy earth.

 

[Jainarayan]

But the OP was suggesting that Krishna was a real manifestation of some great teacher - he was not.

That's only your belief and opinion. Your comment should be prefaced as such. To millions of Hindus, including me, Krishna is God. It seems you have some bitterness or animosity against who and what Krishna is. I will leave it at that. Shubham astu.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well, I believe Jesus is God, so...

The rest I can have respect for. Moses is one of the Prophets and the Buddha is cool with me.

 

[turbopro]

>> We are speaking about real life here not mythological characters only existing in comic books.

Odin is as real as all those others you named.

Moreover, your list is woefully short. There are myriad great beings you neglected to mention.

Moreover, moreover, your list contains only male great beings: where are the female great beings?

 

[siti]

That's only your belief and opinion. Your comment should be prefaced as such.

Like you did here for example?

Krishna is but one of many incarnations of Vishnu.

But, in my opinion, this is a debate forum - most of what is expressed is opinion - that's more or less the point (IMO). If we were limited to posting facts about the historicity or divinity of any of the characters mentioned in the OP the only possible thing anyone could say with certainty would be "Dunno!" (IMO).

But if you are insisting that Krishna IS actually an incarnation of the supreme deity then (IMO) you have a much more intractable (IMO) problem to answer (which is - IMO - echoed by Gandhari's impassioned but unanswered question) - why was the supreme deity (Janardana - Vishnu - Krishna) apparently either unwilling or unable to use his omniscience and omnipotence to prevent the carnage in the first place? The only response seems (IMO) to be to pin the blame on (Gandhari's) natural human emotions. And of course, that last bit is the truth (IMO) - harmful disorder in human affairs often is (IMO) the result of emotive (irrational) human responses. And it is also true (IMO) that we can't expect a deity to pop up and rescue us from the consequences of our own folly. And neither (IMO) can we expect a future incarnation of deity to appear providing us with yet another version of the same (supposedly IMO) divine counsel.

We are (IMO) on our own, at the mercy (to some extent) of our own nature and (IMO to an even greater extent) of nature at large, and our situation calls (IMO) for rational reflection based on human wisdom not an irrational and emotional hope for a recurrence of divine intervention that probably (IMO) never really happened anyway. In my opinion.

 

[Dawnofhope]

How do we explain these Great Beings: Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab & Bahaullah? They are somewhat unique and unparalleled in human history and were clearly not ordinary people.

There are famous people in history, famous artists, musicians and scientists but none can compare to the influence of the Educator, Teacher, Messiah or Prophet.

But Who were they? And why were they and still are so influential throughout history? Why did they inspire civilizations? Why have their scriptures become patterns of life followed daily by billions of people for thousands of years?

What gift did they possess to be able to be persecuted, oppressed, tortured, exiled and crucified by the most despotic and powerful leaders of their age with but a handful of followers and yet eventually triumph over adversity and establish Their Cause all over the world?

Statues, Churches, Temples, Pagodas, Mosques and Synagogues are built all over the world to pay tribute to these Great Souls.

Are they from another world? Did they pre exist? Without a special power how could they have accomplished what they did and who is their equal in influence?

And aren't we in dire need of another Great Spiritual Teacher to revive us spiritually?

I feel they are all Signs of God's love for humanity. I have little doubt of the need for a Great Teacher to revive us spiritually. That Educator will provide us with a vision of who we are based on our common humanity and sharing the earth as our homeland.

 

[siti]

That Educator will provide us with a vision of who we are based on our common humanity and sharing the earth as our homeland.

But how do you suppose this is going to work out any better than last time - whether last time was 170, 1400, 2000, 2500, 3500 or 5000 years ago - depending on your preference among divinely commissioned Educators. And if we already know what the message should be (and I believe you encapsulated very well the spiritual message that we need) - why do we need to wait? Like one of the previous Educators said "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, if one rise from the dead." - Luke 16:31

 

[Dawnofhope]

But how do you suppose this is going to work out any better than last time - whether last time was 170, 1400, 2000, 2500, 3500 or 5000 years ago - depending on your preference among divinely commissioned Educators. And if we already know what the message should be (and I believe you encapsulated very well the spiritual message that we need) - why do we need to wait? Like one of the previous Educators said "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, if one rise from the dead." - Luke 16:31

Hi Siti, I appreciate you are critical of previous religions due to the violence associated with each in promoting their cause. However I also see the positives in each one. They have all contributed to bring us to this stage in our development where we are one people, one planet. This would have been unthinkable 100 years ago. Now it is the reality, uncomfortable as it may be, that we are confronted. We need to have a new way of thinking to make it work. Humanity have always had wise people to see us through and there is great wisdom in the founders of each of these faiths. To understand the need for religion is another step up.

What is religion and what it is not?

"Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth, give birth to spirituality, and bring life and light to each heart. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division, it were better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure; but if the remedy should only aggravate the complaint it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion. All the holy prophets were as doctors to the soul; they gave prescriptions for the healing of mankind; thus any remedy that causes disease does not come from the great and supreme Physician." Baha'i writings

Why wait? I'm not waiting, are you?

 

[arthra]

Gandhi also seems to have taken the epics as metaphorical tales illustrating the internal conflict within each human being in regard to justified violence and the more virtuous ahisma.

I'm sure you probably meant to spell "Ahimsa" rather than "Ahisma" the vagaries of typing with our weird browsers..! The term is essential in understanding the basics of Gandhiji's non-violence goes back to Jaina texts...

See:

Gandhi/Ahimsa

You probably recall that Bhakti was extolled in the Gita well...

There's a quote by Gandhi I wanted to share:

“The Gita has sung the praises of Knowledge, but it is beyond the mere intellect; it is essentially addressed to the heart and capable of being understood by the heart.”

― Mahatma Gandhi, The Bhagavad Gita According to Gandhi

 

[psychoslice]

There are already many Enlightened beings, you just need the gift of discernment to see them, i see them all the time.

 

[danieldemol]

... ...The number of people who follow Tengrism today may not be as big as Islam but it's not an insubstantial number. Over 55,000 in Mongolia alone.

Is Tengrism founded by Gengis Kahn or another?

Many Baha'is do not belittle the valuable additions made to religios and ethical thought by polytheist
educators.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Is Tengrism founded by Gengis Kahn or another?

It's not a revealed religion so it doesn't really have a founder. Genghis is considered to be a culture hero by some; even a god.

Many Baha'is do not belittle the valuable additions made to religios and ethical thought by polytheist
educators.

That's good to know because it's easy to get the impression that behind the professed tolerance and air of open-mindedness there is the usual sense of smug, self-righteous exclusivity we've come to expect from the Abrahamic religions. One or two comments here haven't helped.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It's not a revealed religion so it doesn't really have a founder. Genghis is considered to be a culture hero by some; even a god.

That's good to know because it's easy to get the impression that behind the professed tolerance and air of open-mindedness there is the usual sense of smug, self-righteous exclusivity we've come to expect from the Abrahamic religions. One or two comments here haven't helped.

We're all decent reasonable people who have our reasons for believing what we do. So its our humanity that unites us. One big lesson for me on RF is to better understand people who have different beliefs. I'm most familiar with Christians, agnostics and atheists. Beyond that living in a multicultural community Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism. Then there is clearly quite a few on this group who consider themselves pagans. There's probably a few where I live. Who knows. I'm good with that.

 

[Tabu]

How do we explain these Great Beings: Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab & Bahaullah? They are somewhat unique and unparalleled in human history and were clearly not ordinary people.

There are famous people in history, famous artists, musicians and scientists but none can compare to the influence of the Educator, Teacher, Messiah or Prophet.

But Who were they? And why were they and still are so influential throughout history? Why did they inspire civilizations? Why have their scriptures become patterns of life followed daily by billions of people for thousands of years?


What gift did they possess to be able to be persecuted, oppressed, tortured, exiled and crucified by the most despotic and powerful leaders of their age with but a handful of followers and yet eventually triumph over adversity and establish Their Cause all over the world?

Statues, Churches, Temples, Pagodas, Mosques and Synagogues are built all over the world to pay tribute to these Great Souls.

Are they from another world? Did they pre exist? Without a special power how could they have accomplished what they did and who is their equal in influence?

And aren't we in dire need of another Great Spiritual Teacher to revive us spiritually?

As for Krishna , we (BKs) believe that he was a deity soul , the first prince of satyug , completely pure , 16 celestial degrees full , the most perfect and the most blissful soul.
As for the others , who were establishers of religions , we believe that they were assisted by an another pure soul ( Ruhul Quds) in establishing their religion.

 

[fantome profane]

How do we explain these Great Beings: Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab & Bahaullah? They are somewhat unique and unparalleled in human history and were clearly not ordinary people.

There are famous people in history, famous artists, musicians and scientists but none can compare to the influence of the Educator, Teacher, Messiah or Prophet.

But Who were they? And why were they and still are so influential throughout history? Why did they inspire civilizations? Why have their scriptures become patterns of life followed daily by billions of people for thousands of years?

What gift did they possess to be able to be persecuted, oppressed, tortured, exiled and crucified by the most despotic and powerful leaders of their age with but a handful of followers and yet eventually triumph over adversity and establish Their Cause all over the world?

Statues, Churches, Temples, Pagodas, Mosques and Synagogues are built all over the world to pay tribute to these Great Souls.

Are they from another world? Did they pre exist? Without a special power how could they have accomplished what they did and who is their equal in influence?

And aren't we in dire need of another Great Spiritual Teacher to revive us spiritually?

I don't believe any of these people are as unique or special as it seems. I believe there are millions if not billions of Buddhas out there right now. All speaking truth, to their friends, to their families, to their children, perhaps even to strangers. On occasion, circumstances conspire to make one of them famous, but that is not necessary. And if you think the world needs a Great Spiritual Teacher, then be one.

 

[Windwalker]

When I reflect that Buddha lived around 2,500 years ago and yet still has massive influence over the minds and hearts of men I truly find it fascinating because billions of people have lived and died since and are never heard of again yet this tiny handful of Teachers seem to be revered eternally.

There are many who were equal or higher in knowledge than these who never are remembered on the scale of human history because of many factors. It's the culture which seizes upon key individuals and turns them into symbols, which are greater than the individual themselves. They become mythologized, larger than life, deified, etc. In our doing this we create symbols for ourselves to aspire to. The reality of these individuals is far less impressive than our image of them we create for ourselves.

I think there must be some secret, mystical in nature or spiritual shared by them, otherwise they too would have been dead and forgotten long ago,

The reason a select few become mythologized by us is largely due to timing and cultural relevance. It's not that they themselves were the select, "chosen" few by God. These visionaries exist in all cultures and all ages, and it's simply a matter of which ones culture seize upon and turn into the mythological creatures were choose to revere and place our hopes in. It's really selective choices of the culture from the available pool of the gifted among us. They aren't "sent" by God for the age. We cull them out and deify them for ourselves and create religions around them as founding figures created largely in our own image.

 

[allfoak]

What do you mean by they came ?

The came here same as you did.
Everyone has an eternal soul that is perfected over many lifetimes.

 

[siti]

I appreciate you are critical of previous religions due to the violence associated with each in promoting their cause.

Right - so how is my position any different from what I have highlighted in the first part of your quote...?

"Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth, give birth to spirituality, and bring life and light to each heart. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division, it were better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure; but if the remedy should only aggravate the complaint it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion...

...All the holy prophets were as doctors to the soul; they gave prescriptions for the healing of mankind; thus any remedy that causes disease does not come from the great and supreme Physician." Baha'i writings

What I am most critical of though, are modern reinterpretations of ancient tribal and imperial religions as if they were somehow "the cure" when, in fact, they were not only aggravations but probably in large measure the disease itself.

I think we both hope for the same thing - unity, harmony, love among the global human family...our main difference (I think) is that I see a glaring disconnect where I have separated the two parts of your quote above...if "all the holy prophets" (which I presume would include the important ones mentioned in the OP) were bringing the cure, how come their message invariably led to more division and bloodshed rather than less? If the test of religion is as the first part suggests, then all the "Great Beings" of the OP (with the possible exceptions of Buddha and Zoroaster - but I don't know enough about them to be sure either way) were not "doctors to the soul" in effect - if that was their intent, then at best they were almost complete failures and in some cases it really seems to me that they intentionally made it worse - the conflicts initiated by the religions of Moses and Muhammad, for example, rage on to this very day and the account about Krishna openly (perhaps even proudly) declares over a billion war dead (certainly I think a ridiculous exaggeration but even the fact that it was exaggerated is in itself instructive in terms of what the religion is about). I really don't think the cure is "more of the same" - we need to learn to rise above it.

I do take one profound lesson from Moses' life though - I feel like I have seen the "Promised Land" from afar - but I will not live long enough to cross over into it. Like Moses, I'll be OK with that as long as I can get a sense that my children's and grandchildren's generation will live in a world that truly is freer from divisive intolerance of all kinds - and especially the religious kind that stifles both reason and (in my view at least) the genuine spiritual connected-ness with the natural world to which we owe our entire existence and in which we are totally and unavoidably immersed.

 

[siti]

I'm sure you probably meant to spell "Ahimsa" rather than "Ahisma" the vagaries of typing with our weird browsers..! The term is essential in understanding the basics of Gandhiji's non-violence goes back to Jaina texts...

See:

Gandhi/Ahimsa

You probably recall that Bhakti was extolled in the Gita well...

There's a quote by Gandhi I wanted to share:

“The Gita has sung the praises of Knowledge, but it is beyond the mere intellect; it is essentially addressed to the heart and capable of being understood by the heart.”

― Mahatma Gandhi, The Bhagavad Gita According to Gandhi

Thanks for that - I often hit keys in the wrong order - I think I corrected a dozen or more spelling errors in that post before hitting the 'post' button. Its getting worse as technology (and age) make spelling skills (sadly, in my probably outdated opinion) increasingly redundant. But all that's another topic altogether.

I completely take your points about the value of the spiritual and devotional aspects of the ancient texts. I am increasingly doubtful (and wary - I should add - having spent the best part of four decades devoted to various forms of Christianity) about the notional separation of the "heart" from the "intellect". The Gita, the Bible and the Qur'an can surely only 'speak to the heart' to the extent that they are apprehensible to (apprehended by) the 'intellect'? And to make any sense in the paradoxical reality of the globally disconnected 'post-modern' world of humanity, surely they also have to be interpreted critically and honestly (in view of the real history - as far as we know it).

To be sure, unswerving devotion to irrational interpretations of the heart could be (are, have proved to be) very, very dangerous indeed. Both dharma and bhakti (by which I mean the broad concepts - very roughly bounded by the meanings of the English words order, duty and devotion - and expressly not any particular religious application of them lest I inadvertently offend anyone - though I don't know why we should go to great lengths to avoid offending religious sensibilities - none of the Educators mentioned in this thread were afraid of opposing religious error), I am suggesting, can strike chords in wicked hearts as well as good ones - only the rational and critical reasoning of the intellect (our own intellect) can sort out which is which - if we have a mind to, and the heart for it!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How do we explain these Great Beings: Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab & Bahaullah? They are somewhat unique and unparalleled in human history and were clearly not ordinary people.

There are famous people in history, famous artists, musicians and scientists but none can compare to the influence of the Educator, Teacher, Messiah or Prophet.

But Who were they? And why were they and still are so influential throughout history? Why did they inspire civilizations? Why have their scriptures become patterns of life followed daily by billions of people for thousands of years?

What gift did they possess to be able to be persecuted, oppressed, tortured, exiled and crucified by the most despotic and powerful leaders of their age with but a handful of followers and yet eventually triumph over adversity and establish Their Cause all over the world?

Statues, Churches, Temples, Pagodas, Mosques and Synagogues are built all over the world to pay tribute to these Great Souls.

Are they from another world? Did they pre exist? Without a special power how could they have accomplished what they did and who is their equal in influence?

And aren't we in dire need of another Great Spiritual Teacher to revive us spiritually?

Nichiren Shonin predictions came true. He didnt see himself as just an educator but a votary of The Buddha. The Buddha isnt an Great Leader anymore than Nichiren and Sariputra. They all focused on the Person you to be enlighted. The only way to do that, according to The Buddha, is to step away from superstitious teachings of god/s (as so why he opposed Hinduism and other like teachings) again gods, abrahamic, bahai included, and specifialy train the mind. He wants you NOT to be depended on god, bab, and other people and things because they are external distractions of understanding the nature of life (karma), suffering, and everything else. They are illusions to enligtement.

The Buddha didnt see himself as great. He saw his Teachings, the Dharma as great. His disciples put him on a pedestol just as you do Bahaullah and a christian jesus. But their status by no means mean they are united by god or manefestation ofngod.

That, and Im interested in the Bahai view of Pagan gods. Ordin has just as much history And more than jesus and muhammad. Most Pagan religions are a hell of a lot older than bahai, islam, christianity, and other "prophet-faiths".

The Buddha, Muhmmad, Moses, and Christ did not see themselves as great if you are comparing them to the creator even as manefestations of such. Their teachings do not correlate with being the greatest because only the creator is the greatest in their eyez. There is no intermediary to help "translate" meaning from person to god. Non trinatiran christians, muslims, and jews go straight to god only.

Why would you see them as great when they consider themselves subordinste to the creator?

Why see The Buddha as great when he said he is just like you and even more so he isnt a person of worship. The Buddha has no value in the enlightement of The Buddhist (strictly speaking) it all goes to the Dharma.

Since Pagan gods exist just as the creator, krishna, and zoroaster, why arent they in your list?

What about the great people and gods in Paganisms that is different than that of The buddha and others?

At least Pagans do believe in gods. So, theyd be more closer on the manefestation list than The Buddha who believed in no gods as cornerstone of The Dharma.

Christianity makes sense, I just disagree with it.

Bahai does not make sense. If I uderstood it, then it would be easier to agree or disagree...

But why arent the pagan gods included and why krishna isnt an abrahamic deity so how can this great deity be a manefestation of a god thats non existant in the Hindu faith?

Lot of contradictions. Not talking about morals just plain facts.