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Featured How are the Titles, ‘Father’, and ‘Son’, defined in the scriptures - in relation to Spirit and Flesh

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Soapy, May 18, 2021.

  1. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe if Jesus had wanted to say that He would have but He did not. Context reveals He meant exactly what He said.

    I believe one would have to ignore a lot of scripture to take that view.

    I believe Jesus answers that: The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

    I believe that is because a man is just viewed as a man until an anointing reveals the Spirit within.

    I believe that shows how little you know God. He does what He wants when He wants.

    I believe that is exactly right, as God He is anointed of God's Spirit and power.

     
  2. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe there is no biblical evidence to support that concept. Otherwise everyone is dead in their sins.

    I believe Jesus is the first (and only) born creation. Adam was created from an earthly extraction. Creation does not guarantee holiness. Jesus was holy because God is within. Adam was not and his actions revealed that.
     
  3. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    I am not trinitarian. But I still believe the Messiah was God. Not another person, but the one and only God manifesting himself in a fleshly body.

    I ask you: Who was it in John 1:6-12 that was in the world, and the world was made by him? Who was it that came unto his own and his own received him not? (Because whoever it was, the world was made by him.)

    Who was that true light mentioned in verse 9? I know who the light of the world was. Do you?
     
    #63 TrueBeliever37, Aug 13, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2021
  4. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    It's talking about God, not Jesus yet. The light comes from God. Plus, we know that the world was made by God, not Jesus.
    Jesus comes into play in verse 14...

    I also know who the light is too.
     
  5. DNB

    DNB Christian

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    wow, i lost count of all the fallacies that you committed in your post. How can God get His life from God (Jesus was the Son in His pre-existence because He gets His life from His Father.) How can one of two co-equal beings, be the head of the other? How can one humble themselves before their equal - that would be false humility? According to trinitarian thought, the equality is not in their nature but their ontology, which would make their entire essence equal.

    We should be be asking why, we should just be reading the scripture and agreeing. Never, ever just accept what you read, always ask why in order to keep your interpretation in check. Like in the case of the trinity, if it sounds absurd, then reject it wholesale.
     
  6. DNB

    DNB Christian

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    It is an absurd notion to think that, according to trinitarian theology, the triune god who both devised and orchestrated the plan and logistics of Redemption, to ever have such sentiments pass through his mind. How can an omniscient entity establish a protocol for the Atonement, and then when deployed, contemplate a potential option to undermine it, as in remaining equal to God when a fallible human was required for sacrifice? This is not what the passage is attempting to convey.

    But, on the contrary, these are clearly the sentiments of a 1st century man who was aware of his virgin birth, and who had read and understood all the Scriptures pertaining to himself, that is, recognizing his pre-eminence and Messiaship (form of a god to his brethren). But, realizing that both potency-wise, and ontologically, equality with God was not a feasible or plausible consideration. He therefore remained within the mindset of what his God-given creature ontology and mandate dictated - humility and servitude. And thus, Paul is prescribing that we humans adopt this mentality. Which, if Jesus were God, would be ludicrous, too hypothetical and unfathomable, for us creatures ever to emulate such a disposition – behaving contrary to our ontologies.
     
  7. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    How can someone really know the light, if they don't even know he is God?

    John 20:28 Thomas figured out that he was God.

    1 Timothy 6:14-16 until the appearing of who? Which in his times, he shall show, who is the blessed and ONLY Potentate, the King of Kings,... Who ONLY hath immortality Do you know who the King of Kings is?

    John 14:8-9 The Messiah said if you have SEEN me you have SEEN the Father. ( and you know the Father is God.)

    Isaiah 44:6 YHWH said I am the first and the last; and beside me there is no God. Revelation 22:13 The Messiah said he is the first and the last.

    Isaiah 43:11 YHWH said beside me there is no Saviour. 2 Timothy 1:10 by the appearing of our Saviour (I'll let you Guess who)

    Isaiah 45:23 YHWH said that unto him every knee shall bow, and every tongue swear.

    Isaiah 43:10 YHWH said that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: The Messiah said unless you believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sin.
     
  8. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    First of all, your making Jesus God. So we need to stop right there. God's righteousness has to come first. I dont really think you understand the relationship between the father and the son is all about.

    [How can someone really know the light, if they don't even know he is God?]
    Who's "he", Jesus? Well, the first mistake, your making Jesus God. It was God's light that was in the world. The word of God, God's ways, God's truth. It's talking about a time when people didnt see it or want it.

    [John 20:28 Thomas figured out that he was God.]
    No... he didnt. You are my Lord and my Elohim. Big difference.....
    Plus, Jesus also carries the name of God too, just like us. We can carry and bear God's name too, esp when we get baptized into Jesus's name.

    [1 Timothy 6:14-16 until the appearing of who? Which in his times, he shall show, who is the blessed and ONLY Potentate, the King of Kings,... Who ONLY hath immortality Do you know who the King of Kings is?]
    Read it again, it's talking about God and Jesus. Which in his times (God), he (God) shall show, who is....... It's talking about Jesus as King of Kings. Then it goes back to God, Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen.
    That's God, not Jesus. Everyone saw Jesus.

    [John 14:8-9 The Messiah said if you have SEEN me you have SEEN the Father. ( and you know the Father is God.)]
    We already spoke about this one on the board. Every easy to figure out.

    [Isaiah 44:6 YHWH said I am the first and the last; and beside me there is no God. Revelation 22:13 The Messiah said he is the first and the last.]
    Isaiah is talking Israel going to others Gods and God is telling them that He is the only God and he's also your King. And beside Him there are no other Gods. GOD, was also Israel's King too.

    [Isaiah 43:11 YHWH said beside me there is no Saviour. 2 Timothy 1:10 by the appearing of our Saviour (I'll let you Guess who)]
    I"m really not understanding that your not understanding this........ Salvation is from God. He as also given all power and authority over to His son. Salvation started with and comes from God Himself. But now, it's "through" his son.

    [Isaiah 45:23 YHWH said that unto him every knee shall bow, and every tongue swear.]
    Didnt Jesus say that he came in his Father's name? Doesnt it say that God is working through his son? Jesus represents his father in every way. So yes, people will be bowing to Jesus as if they were bowing down to God in heaven. But Jesus is not God.


    [Isaiah 43:10 YHWH said that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: The Messiah said unless you believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sin.]
    That I am who?....... That Jesus is God? Do you really think that Jesus is telling everyone that he is God?
     
  9. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Wow - what a wrangling of the scriptures you are doing. And you try to make points and provide no scripture as proof.

    BTW - Elohim is the Hebrew word which translates to God.

    He is God whether you are able to see it or not.
     
    #69 TrueBeliever37, Aug 15, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2021
  10. JerryMyers

    JerryMyers Member

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    Thank God, that statement was NOT part of John 20:28!!
    If it was, Trinitarians will also be claiming that Thomas was God too as Thomas himself figured that out that he (Thomas) was God ….. and that’s how easy Trinitarians can and have been misinterpreting their English-translated Bibles when they claim Jesus is God.

    A good example of how Trinitarians have been misinterpreting their Bible is when they claimed Jesus must be God because everything was created through Jesus and without Jesus nothing will get created and they based this understanding on John 1:3that is far from the truth.

    The ‘Word’ in John 1 is not an entity or a person. John 1 is about God’s Glory and how He creates (including the creation of Jesus as mentioned in John 1:14). Unlike humans, God creates by just uttering a word (a command), and since the word was uttered by God Himself, we said it’s the Word of God, and the Word of God was God (that is, divine for obvious reason).

    The ‘Word’ in John 1 was translated from the Greek word ‘Logos’ which is a masculine noun (yes, the Greek language has masculine and feminine nouns), and that’s why at times, the ‘logos’ is referred to as a ‘he’ or ‘him’, which Trinitarians mistook it as a person.

    If Trinitarians can remove their preconceived mindset that Jesus is God, then, they can understand John 1:1-3 as it was meant to be understood - ‘In the beginning was the Word (of God), and the Word (of God) was with God (of course), and the Word was God (that is, the Word was divine, meaning it was uttered by God Himself, not by any Tom, Dick or Harry). He (representative of the masculine noun ‘logos’, that is, God spoken Word/Command) was with God in the beginning (of course). Through him (again, representative of the masculine noun ‘logos’, that is, God spoken Word/Command) all things were made, without him (representative of the masculine noun ‘logos’, that is, without God’s commanding it through a Word He uttered) nothing was made that has been made.

    Everything was NOT created by/through Jesus, but, everything was created by the One and Only God by uttering a Word/Command – “O Lord, how manifold are your works! In wisdom have you made them all; the earth is full of your creatures” – Psalm 104:24
    - “My help comes from the Lord, who made heaven and earth– Psalm 121:2
    - Know that the Lord, He is God! It is He who made us, and we are His; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture – Psalm 100:3
     
  11. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    Well.... yes and no....

    God is written in a few different ways in the org. language.

    GOD is the Yahweh name.

    God is either EL, ELOAH or ELOHIM. ELOHIM is plural for ELOAH

    EL is the power of YAHWEH. David uses that in Psalms

    ELOAH - singifies Mighty One, one whose might is drived from EL, thus Deity in specifice manifestion. See Job 19v26, Hab. 3v3, where the word is used of Christ, the manifestation of the Father (the latter reference should be in the future tense - "shall come")

    Elohim - Plural from of the above. Deity in multitudinous manisfestation. The word, though plural, is often used with a singular verb, indicating that though the Elohim may constitute a multitude, one Eternal Spirit motivates them all, thus revealing Deity in manifestation - e.g Psalm 95v7: "He (Yahweh) is our Elohim (MIghty Ones)". The angels were the "ministers of Yahweh" excelling in His strength (Ps 103v20-22). "For Yahweh is a great El and a great King above all Elohim" (Ps. 95v3). "Elohim" comes from a word ALAH to swear to bind oneself by an oath, so that though a multitude that no one can number, the Elohim act as a single unit; they are united together and with Yahweh, with ties that are indivisible. The word is translated "angels" in Ps. 8v5, and "judges" in Exod. 21v6, 22v8-9, 28, because the latter revealed Yahweh's law and judgement to the nation.

    So angels can be Elohim too. Jesus was made lower than the Elohim. The Judges in that OT book where called Elohim too. Because they brought the word of God to the people. Same with Thomas when he said, you are my Lord and Elohim.

    The Levi priest were called Elohim too. Because... again... they were the ones who brought the word of God to the people. They "represented" God.
    In Genesis it says, And the Elohim said, let us.... make man... That is the angels working with God.

    So... we have to really look at what the word "God" is... is it EL, ELOAH, or Elohim....



    Or is it GOD or LORD or lord or God....
    But in your case.... Jesus is God. lol too funny!!!!
     
  12. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Jerry,
    I am not a Trinitarian. Thomas had realized that the Messiah was God. That was why he said My Lord and my God. No matter how much anyone denies it, it is there.

    As far as logos - that refers to the plan or idea or concept. It was the plan of God that was with God, and was God, and involved God, and when the time was right God took on flesh and that part of the plan was fulfilled.
     
  13. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    You can try to be misleading if you want. But we both know that YHWH said he was the only Elohim. Isaiah 44:6 So when Thomas called him that, it was because he knew he was YHWH.

    When GOD was used in all caps, it was to let us know they had replaced his name with the word Elohim, rather than say his name.
     
  14. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

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    lol, if you say so.

    First of all, who's Yahweh talking to? He's talking to Israel... why? And... at that time, he was the only Elohim.. That's the point he's trying to make...
     
  15. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe a better question is: What is a pre-existent Jesus. How can something be before it exists? I believe the physical Jesus gets His physicality from God and His physical life.

    I believe it is a matter of God presenting Himself the way He wishes when He wishes. It does not change His nature to do so.

    I believe God majors in truths that appear absurd as in telling Nicodemus that he must be born again.
     
  16. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it appears you believe in the Trinity and that does not make you a Trinitarian?
     
  17. DNB

    DNB Christian

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    But Jesus telling Nicodemus to be born again is easily reconcilable - that figure of speech is not absurd when explained. But, on the other hand, regarding Jesus as God in any manner whatsoever, defies all rationale and plausibility.
     
  18. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    No I don't. I believe God was the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Spirit in the church. 3 different manifestations of the one and only God - not 3 different persons.

    So you believe wrong about me.
     
    #78 TrueBeliever37, Aug 16, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2021
  19. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Wrong - because he said before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isaiah 43:10 So it wasn't just at that time, he is the only God that will ever exist.
     
  20. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    You think the Messiah was another person that was also God. I believe the Messiah was the one and only God who had taken on a fleshly body. There is a big difference.
     
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