1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured How are the Titles, ‘Father’, and ‘Son’, defined in the scriptures - in relation to Spirit and Flesh

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Soapy, May 18, 2021.

  1. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2016
    Messages:
    2,577
    Ratings:
    +281
    Religion:
    Christian
    Being the Head of a woman, doesn't mean ' Better than ' or ' superior / more powerful or greater. Within the God head there is unity within the divinity. Co equal, Co eternal but with different roles.
     
  2. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    1,042
    Ratings:
    +92
    Religion:
    Christian
    This thread is concerning the definitions of ‘Father’ and ‘Son’ in relation to Spirit and Flesh.

    How do you define the Titles, ‘Father’, and ‘Son’ in relation to Spirit and Flesh?
     
  3. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    1,042
    Ratings:
    +92
    Religion:
    Christian
    ‘Soul’ is the person.

    ‘Body’ is the casing, the hardware, the physical elements, the ‘dust’ (chemical elements).

    ‘Spirit’ is the activating force that animates the body.

    The body of Adam was created first… inanimate, inert, lifeless, uninspirited. AND THEN God blew the BREATH OF LIFE into the lifeless body of Adam… and … ‘THE MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL’.

    ‘Adam’ is more than the NAME of the first man. It is Hebrew for ‘Red Earth’. It describes the ‘dust’ that the body of the man was formed from. Dust, or red earth, is, of course, inert, lifeless, etc.

    The breath of life, the Spirit, the life force,
    that animates, that inspirits, that enlivens,
    the inert, inanimate, lifeless body of a man
    • CANNOT DIE
    it can only be
    • DESTROYED BY GOD (who created it.. ‘the Father of Spirits’)
    • “As the body without the spirit is dead” (James 2:26)
    • The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing.” (John 6:63)
    The body, the red earth, the casement, of a man - without an enlivening spirit within it, cannot sustain itself and will break down and return to dust AS WE ALL KNOW (that is not in dispute, thank goodness!)

    The SPIRIT of a man CANNOT FUNCTION without a body, an encasement, (Hence there is no such thing as a ‘GHOST’, an in embodied human spirit, roaming the earth… so I wish Christian people would stop saying ‘Ghost’ in their scriptural renderings and instead use ‘Spirit’)

    So, man is BODY and SPIRIT: A SOUL. And in completeness a LIVING MAN is a LIVING SOUL.

    The body can be destroyed by another man but the SPIRIT then ‘goes back to God who created it’, and ‘rests’ (is of no use in activity as it has no body to act on).

    For those of us with computer knowledge, it is like computer hardware and computer software:
    The hardware is of no use without the controlling software. Without the software the hardware is just a pile of metal, plastics, and other chemical elements… it is lifeless and inert and will break down in time to ‘dust’ (rust?)!!

    And the software is of no use without the hardware to ACT ON. It is simply ‘Shelved’ by its creator.
     
    #43 Soapy, Jun 23, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
  4. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    1,042
    Ratings:
    +92
    Religion:
    Christian
    • “Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” (Genesis 3:16)
    So a woman’s desire for her husband and to be ruled over by her husband is not a command given by God to a woman because of her sin?

    Is that what you are saying?

    • “But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Cor 11:13)
    So, you are saying that Christ being the head of man does not mean that Christ is superior to man … and that GOD being the head of Christ does not mean that GOD is superior to Christ.

    Meaning that GOD is not SUPERIOR to MAN?

    Is that right?
     
  5. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2016
    Messages:
    2,577
    Ratings:
    +281
    Religion:
    Christian
    So man is ' superior ' to a woman ? Good luck with that attitude. Are you married?
     
  6. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    1,042
    Ratings:
    +92
    Religion:
    Christian
    You don’t appear to know how to respond with the answer… ‘Ok, I see what you mean… Yes, you are right!’

    Instead, you find something to throw back that is irrelevant:

    In response: The command given by GOD is BECAUSE OF THE SIN OF EVE…:
    • “Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate”…. … To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”
    GOD says: Because you have sinned….”Your pains in childbirth will be severe and … Your husband will rule over you!’

    I did not say that… THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY who made mankind SAID THAT.

    And, by the way, you are not allowed to make comments about posters private circumstances. You can comment on what the poster writes and critique or criticise their comprehension on a matter … I won’t report it this time.

    So what you are saying is that a command from God towards someone who has done wrong is not valid because today’s society does not heed God’s commands!? (Please do not point to situations like women’s rights or restrictions over the children of Israel… these are LAWS OF MOSES!)

    And, again, here is another question for you which I hope you can answer since you are led by your pagan holy-spirit-god-person!
    • “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
    • “And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.”
    According to trinity, this means that Adam and Eve ARE GOD because they are both LIKE GOD, ‘Like one of US’!!

    Is this correct?

    But in reality, it was the Angel that GOD was speaking with about knowing good from evil because why would the so-called godhead be claiming unity of knowledge of good and bad if they are a ONE THREEPERSON GOD….

    Like GOD is pleased with GOD so GOD anointed GOD with the SPIRIT PERSON OF GOD and this made GOD have THE SPIRIT PERDON OF GOD AND POWER … and straightway GOD WENT ABOUT DOING GOOD…

    Sounds like the people of Lystra taught you scriptures!
     
    #46 Soapy, Jun 23, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
  7. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    3,993
    Ratings:
    +752
    Religion:
    Christian
    We probably almost agree on that.
    This spirit that is shelved is imo the soul that Jesus was speaking of in Matt 10:28, the thing that does not die when the body is destroyed.
    In this life our soul is the totality of who we are, when we die the totality of who we are is the spirit that lives on and is then our soul.
    This is what is united with another body at the resurrection so that we can be whole again.
     
  8. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2016
    Messages:
    2,577
    Ratings:
    +281
    Religion:
    Christian
    Man is not 'superior 'to a woman . Man is not 'better 'than a woman . Women are not 'inferior 'to Man . This is not biblical, what you say about women . Quite frankly you should be ashamed for saying so . They are equal ,but they have different roles .
    Just like that of the God head . I cannot continue with this discussion, if this is how you treat women . Just terrible.
     
  9. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    1,042
    Ratings:
    +92
    Religion:
    Christian
    I like that you say that you almost agree with what I said … because there is nothing else to it.

    It really isn’t a point of issue except for wording or definition of wordings.

    However, I don’t think that ‘Soul’ describes what you say it does… in fact, what you said was ambiguous.

    You said at one point that the Spirit is what lives on when a person dies… and, yes, that is true.

    But you then describe the same thing as being, the Soul!!

    It can’t be both…

    It’s a pointless point but you could only have said that a person is a:
    • ‘Spirit embodied’ Soul
    And a dead person is a:
    • ‘Lifeless’ Soul such that the body, the physical body element, is mentioned as being ‘in absentia’
    What is required to avoid creating ambiguity and wrongful ideology is any notion that man is some kind of three part entity. Trinitarians have already tried to create this illusion in the very aspect discussed here; namely that man is body, spirit AND Soul. This is as farcical as it is wrong as it should easily and sensibly be seen from Matthew 10:28:
    • “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body…”
    That killing the body alone does not eternally kill the Soul… THE PERSON… and that only God, who gave life to the body through the embodiment of a SPIRIT, can destroy the SPIRIT and the BODY, aka: the Soul…

    Though a person may be dead, meaning that their body is no longer enspirited, that Spirit is not destroyed but just inactive - hence the person, the SOUL is not destroyed; the PERSON is not destroyed.

    Incidentally, “Person” is synonymous with “Soul”… Does the scriptures ever use the word, “Person”?

    Is this because it uses the synonym, “Soul”, instead?
     
  10. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    1,042
    Ratings:
    +92
    Religion:
    Christian
    Oh my GOSH!!

    You really are straining at a gnat and creating division where there was none!!

    I did not say that a man is SUPERIOR to a woman!

    I said that ALMIGHTY GOD told the woman that because of her sin her role in the Union between a man and a woman as husband and wife was that the woman was to be RULED OVER BY HER HUSBAND.

    If you are claiming that this COMMAND OF GOD is wrong then you are claiming that GOD IS WRONG!

    Not only that but the scriptural, Godly ORDER is clearly outlined in the scriptures whereby:
    • “But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” 1 Cor 11:3
    The SCRIPTURES via the Apostle states that Yahweh’s almighty order is that:
    • The MAN, Jesus, who was anointed (CHRIST: sanctified, Set apart for kingship and high priesthood to God), is HEAD of All Mankind
    • That all males of mankind are IN SPIRITUAL ORDER HEAD over a Woman because WOMAN WAS “TAKEN OUT OF MAN”(Hebrew: ‘WO-MAN’)
    • But that ALMIGHTY GOD: YAHWEH, is HEAD over ALL — Head over Jesus CHRIST!
    What you are claiming is that the FLESH, that HUMANITY, MANKIND is equal!!! This was not the argument nor the point. God, the Scriptures, Jesus, the apostles, speak of SPIRITUAL THINGS… not fleshly thing!!

    And I think YOU KNOW THAT….!

    We, of humanity, of the Flesh, of Mankind, are all equal IN THAT WE ARE ALL ‘CHILDREN OF GOD’, made in the IMAGE OF GOD … in the FIRST INSTANCE!:
    1. Children of God, made in the image of God… we all have the ability to do the works of the Father, to do his Will, to keep ourselves from sinning
    2. In all things there is order because ‘No one can have two masters’…! God established the order of a man and a woman in a married relationship. He says that the man is to take the lead, to be the Head of the household, which obviously includes his wife, the woman
    3. And we see that MAN (ADAM) was PUNISHED far more than the Woman (EVE) because the ETERNAL SIN was attributed to Adam - not Eve!! The WOMAN was punished by BEING MADE TO BE RULED BY HER HUSBAND…
    This is the GOD GIVEN SPIRITUAL ORDER of which I am not ashamed because it is God’s SPIRITUAL order and you are arguing MAN’s FLESHLY ORDER.

    Quite frankly, I believe you only say what you said as a means to get away from the debate as you realise you have lost!!!

    But you forget that learning the truth is NOT A FAILURE….

    It is actually an ACHIEVEMENT of which YOU SHOULD NOT BE ASHAMED!
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    19,059
    Ratings:
    +1,435
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe it would be that the Father is Spirit and Jesus is flesh and Spirit.
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    19,059
    Ratings:
    +1,435
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe God has always existed so yes He did. However the person of Jesus came into the world at His conception.
     
  13. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    19,059
    Ratings:
    +1,435
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe it does.

    I believe God preexisted before entering into Jesus. I believe Jesus is establishing continuity between Himself and Yahweh by doing that. People knew about Yahweh but they didn't know Jesus yet.

    I believe it makes perfect sense.

    I hate to break this to you but I don't believe Yahweh ever gets angry at Himself.

    I believe the Trinity make perfect sense and don't see what your problem is.
     
  14. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    1,466
    Ratings:
    +354
    [I believe God preexisted before entering into Jesus.]
    God has always been here. Why would you think that God wasnt always here...

    [I hate to break this to you but I don't believe Yahweh ever gets angry at Himself.]
    I dont either. Why would you even say that? I know I didnt ......

    [I believe the Trinity make perfect sense and don't see what your problem is.]
    Of course it makes sense to you, that's what you've been taught all of your life. Plus, I dont have a problem, esp, on what you believe in. That's your issues.
     
  15. J. Byer

    J. Byer New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2021
    Messages:
    10
    Ratings:
    +1
    Religion:
    Christian
    When reading the NT, people don't understand that 75% of it was written by one man Lucius, the Bishop of Cyrene, and people are reading his corruption, his fiction and his forgery. So, Lucius wrote about the Father in heaven when there is no father, since God said that he has no image. (Exodus 20) Ditto re the Son of God. Lucius read Daniel 7:13, and corrupted the Son of Man into Son of God. People have been fooled for 2000 years by Lucianity, but it is untrue. Lucianity reveals that Jesus was the anointed one of God, but he was a man, not God. Additionally, there was no "Our Father" prayer..... that also is the corruption of Lucius. Jesus would never identify God with an image which a "FATHER" is. Jesus would have prayed to
    the "Lord God Jehovah" or Lord God Yahweh or just Lord God. People have believed the corruption of Lucianity for the last 2000 years which explains all the issues and confusion.
     
  16. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    1,042
    Ratings:
    +92
    Religion:
    Christian
    When scriptures says that Jesus was ‘SENT INTO THE WORLD BY GOD’ it is to be understood that this was AFTER Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit of God and given power.

    It is worth taking into consideration that Jesus did not do anything of a miraculous nature nor even distinguished himself except for his zeal for LEARNING THE SCRIPTURES.

    Ask the question: ‘Why would God need to learn the scriptures or “learn obedience”’?

    Ask the question: ‘Why would God be required to be anointed (consecrated / set aside for kingship and priesthood) TO GOD’?

    It is not acceptable to take the answer from a trinitarian that, ‘That’s because it was his humanity that needed these things!’. If God is in a person then the Holy Spirit endows them with these aspects, of which Jesus was anointed with the FULLNESS of GOD’s Holy Spirit.

    And the scriptures tells us that the apostles saw it this way, too (Acts 10:37-38):
    • “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached—how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.“
    Says it all.
     
    #56 Soapy, Jul 20, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    1,042
    Ratings:
    +92
    Religion:
    Christian
    It is true that:
    • The Father is Spirit only
    • Jesus is Spirit in flesh
    The Father, Yahweh, is the Father of Spirits.

    He created the Spirit that he put into flesh which together became the Man, Jesus [Christ].

    He created the Spirit that he put into flesh which together became the Man, Adam.

    Both Adam and Jesus were direct creations of the Father, and as such, both are pure, holy and sinless human Beings… however, with the freedom of being “Image of God” they are tested as to their integrity in that commodity….

    Adam failed… he gave way to his wife, Eve, in that he ate of the fruit that The Father instructed him (them - him first!) not to eat. Be it known, though, that it was not the fruit, nor the sustenance of eating of it, per se, that was the sin - but the DISOBEDIENCE to the Father’s command by failing to refrain from eating it - effectively, the command was a test of integrity.

    Jesus, however, did not fall to sin when he was severely tested in the wilderness - He kept honour and resisted sin.

    Thus, Jesus remains, ‘Image of God’.

    And, in every language, in every sense, in every meaning, an ‘Image’ is not the thing that it is image of… it only reflects that thing. As a perfect image perfectly reflects the source, so Jesus, as image of the Father, reflects the Father, perfectly. But he is not the Father but a reflection of the Father…. So, also, since the Father is God, Jesus is a reflection of God but is not God…
    • “For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.” (John 5:20)
    • “By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.… I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form” (John 5: 30 … 37)
     
  18. thomas loebel

    thomas loebel Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Messages:
    40
    Ratings:
    +1
    Religion:
    belief in god
     
  19. thomas loebel

    thomas loebel Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Messages:
    40
    Ratings:
    +1
    Religion:
    belief in god
    Genesis 6 must be all six seals already from wilderness to love. "firmament [firm a men cross] as a midst with water above and water below is simple as..father---[red sea]--son---[jordan]--holy spirit ..same as the way, the truth, and the life...same as wilderness crosses to faith[son] and son crosses to love [holy spirit] the reason we hear of "father, son , holy spirit and also..father, son, holy ghost, is because if son is faith that does not find love his spirit returns for another death as holy ghost or son can believe in love and reaches holy spirit that resurrects back to god and does not retutn for more deaths. we die many times as the holy ghost is us here. "peter was filled with the holy ghost [he denied lord] and is filled with all his deaths when about to go back to god in darkness and return here to second coming as good. [moses is good after evil now] time as wheel is cross I [spirit] with many me is t i me. cross i with me and tie i to me. Remember "john" is faith as the greatest born of woman [wilderness] but the least in the kingdom [love] is greater than he. [its the middle and below and above.]
     
  20. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    19,059
    Ratings:
    +1,435
    Religion:
    Christian
    I haven't been taught the Trinity. I had to learn it from God.
     
Loading...