1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured How are the Titles, ‘Father’, and ‘Son’, defined in the scriptures - in relation to Spirit and Flesh

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Soapy, May 18, 2021.

  1. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2008
    Messages:
    2,670
    Ratings:
    +480
    Religion:
    Christian
    REGARDING PHILLIPIANS 2:6

    Hi @moorea944

    1) Moorea944 said : “The N.I.V. gives a different translation of this phrase, saying that Jesus did not consider equality with God "something to be grasped at".
    This is NOT the NIV rendering.
    The actual NIV rendering regarding Jesus is : Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; (NIV 2:6) “

    2) Moorea944 said (regarding the NIV of Phillipians 2:6) : "totally disproves the theory that Jesus was God. (Moorea944, post #19)
    Your conclusion that the text which says that Jesus Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; (NIV Phil 2:6)"totally disproves the theory that Jesus was God. (Moorea944, post #19) “ seems illogical since the first phrase indicates Jesus was in very nature God" and the second phrase in the NIV merely indicates that this "equality with God" was not something to be used to his own advantage.


    3) I don’t understand how you can conclude the phrase that Jesus was “in very nature God” means Jesus was NOT “in very nature God” or that not using this nature to his advantage disproves the first phrase that he WAS “in very nature God”.


    4) Morrea944 said : "According to some translations, Jesus did not for a moment entertain the idea of being equal with God; he knew that he was subject to God, and not co-equal with Him." (post #20)
    Can you provide 2-3 examples of these translations you are describing? (thanks in advance)


    In makling these points above, I am not arguing the theology is correct or not, but rather I do not understand why you think the NIV and it’s rendering, demonstrates what you claim it demonstrates.


    Clear
    τωσεφιω
     
    #21 Clear, May 21, 2021
    Last edited: May 22, 2021
  2. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    1,059
    Ratings:
    +93
    Religion:
    Christian
    Moorea944, yes, perfectly correct. Though I would add that some are knowingly playing a game of ignoring the truth.

    Think of how they feel when they see the truth that trinity is fallacy!! It hurts.... it’s maddening... how should they approach their pastor, vicar, priest, etc., on Sunday and say, ‘Sir, can I ask you about the trinity...?’

    I’m pretty sure they won’t be welcomed back to the church next week if they confess the truth... so, yes, it’s better for them to carry on bring in denial.

    But Jesus says:
    • “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do!”
    Just read what they say and what we say and what is said:
    • GOD” anointed “Jesus” with Holy Spirit and power
    • GOD” granted “Jesus” to have life in him
    • GOD” raised “Jesus” from the dead
    • GOD” seated “Jesus” at His right hand
    • GOD” set “Jesus” to have all power and authority to bring His (God’s) kingdom into order. “Jesus “ then hands it back to “GOD
    There’s more, of course... We know the name of the latter person - “Jesus” but now ask whom we say is “GOD”!

    What is the trinitarian offering:
    • Person: “Father, SON, and Holy Spirit”
    • Name: .....??
    Our offering is:
    • Person: The only holy, sinless, righteous human Son of God
    • Name: Jesus [the Christ] (actually, ‘Joshua’ / ‘Yeshua’)
    But what is the elephant in the room...?

    Yes!!!! If:
    • GOD by trinity is one being: ‘Father, SON, and Holy Spirit’ and...
    • Jesus [the Christ] (just Jesus from here) by trinity IS both GOD and SON then recursively...
    • Jesus is ‘Father, son, and Holy Spirit’ and SON of the one being, ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’: trinity God!!
    It’s easier if it were drawn out as a picture... nah, still nonsense!! But read back over what Brian2 says (well, any trinitarian) and you will find this unholy recursive entanglement which they try to cover by claiming that Jesus was BOTH God and man and could willingly (some say) SWITCH OFF BEING GOD and (others say) WAS DENIED BEING GOD ...BY GOD!!!

    I mean, come on!! Please!!! ‘The Father was pleased that he (Jesus) should be filled with the godhead’... and ask them what the ‘godhead’ is Then ask how Jesus, whom they say IS GOD, can be filled WITH GOD - BY GOD? And if Jesus IS GOD, why does he need to be filled with God???

    It is certainly true... and what God prophesies must come manifest itself (put on flesh) in due course of time:
    • For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie” (2 Thess 2:11)
    Truly, ‘Father, forgive them, for they know not what they SAY!’
     
  3. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,027
    Ratings:
    +757
    Religion:
    Christian
    I have read that some think the Ebionites were adoptionists but others say they said that Jesus was empowered by some sort of Christ spirit to be the Messiah. Soapy and Morea seem reluctant to reveal much of there theology.
    But yes I have heard that there is a lack of early Christian groups that could be pointed to as being adoptionists.
     
  4. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,027
    Ratings:
    +757
    Religion:
    Christian
    Thanks. I would say I read the passage differently and it probably comes down to the starting point. You seem to be saying that the human Jesus was in the form of God and took the form of a servant.
    When I read it I see a being, Christ Jesus, who was in the form of God and then took the form of a servant and became a man, in that order. Can you see how it reads like that naturally and without letting our theology dictate what the passage is saying?

    A question which I have asked Soapy also. How do you understand this passage?
    Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!
    I see it as the times when Yahweh throughout the history of Israel, wanted to gather them under His wings. (as the the passages in the following site)
    Psalm 36:7; Psalm 57:1; Psalm 63:7; Psalm 91:4; Matthew 23:37; Luke 13:34; Ruth 2:12
    I do not see that Jerusalem refused to be gathered to Jesus time and time again in His life, do you?
     
    #24 Brian2, May 22, 2021
    Last edited: May 22, 2021
  5. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,027
    Ratings:
    +757
    Religion:
    Christian
    It is true that the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father according to Jesus. (John 14:11
    It is true that the Father and Son are in the Holy Spirit whom is given to one who loves Jesus. This is shown at John 14:23.
    It is true that the Holy Spirit is in God and that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ and so is in and comes from Christ. (Eph 4-6, Romans 8:9)
    And of course it is true that the Son could decide to live as a man without using His Godly powers etc. The exception of course is that the Son still had the nature of God as a man and so was able to resist sin.

    I presume you are talking about Col 2:9 which says:
    Col 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form.
    It does not say that Christ was filled with the godhead, it says that is how He is.

    A question. How do you understand this passage?
    Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!
    I see it as the times when Yahweh throughout the history of Israel, wanted to gather them under His wings. (as the the passages in the following site)
    Psalm 36:7; Psalm 57:1; Psalm 63:7; Psalm 91:4; Matthew 23:37; Luke 13:34; Ruth 2:12
    I do not see that Jerusalem refused to be gathered to Jesus time and time again in His life, do you?
     
    #25 Brian2, May 22, 2021
    Last edited: May 22, 2021
  6. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    1,059
    Ratings:
    +93
    Religion:
    Christian
    So you are still trying to stick some kind of earthly label on us and then attribute every wrong if that label as our belief.... Stroll on, man!

    Our belief is just what we express in our posts.
    God did not say anything about ‘Echad’ as in, being one made up of three persons...
    if you think so, show us from the scriptures (bet you cannot!)

    ‘God’ is a TITLE, it pertains to a SPIRIT PERSON OF WORSHIP (a Deity), a GLORIFIED RULER who is ‘ABOVE ALL AND IN ALL’. Trinitarians use the title, ‘God’ as a PERSON outright instead of a deity person - hence they cannot understand that ‘Though there might be GOD’s aplenty ... FOR US there is ONLY ONE GOD... THE FATHER...’ and even the Father himself said, ‘I am the God of all whom are called Gods’ meaning that He whom we believe in as our worshipful deity, our GOD, our spiritual RULER, is greater than all others who are worshipped as GODS... specifically, the Phillistine gods, the Egyptian gods, the Greek gods, the Canaanite, moabites, Persians, etc. And here is the crunch. Because the Israelites came into contact with pagan tribes some such as mentioned above, they demanded a NAME explicit to their/our God to distinguish him from the pagan gods who all had NAMES for each of them. Our God told them that SINCE HE WAS, IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE what HE IS, He is to be called (His NAME IS) ‘YHWH’ (meaning just that: ‘I AM’ - A CONSTANT, ‘I changeth not’).

    He further COMMANDED:
    • “This (‘I am’) IS TO BE MY NAME FOR ALL ETERNITY
    Here is a thing now..... Since it is a case that the Jews ABUSED the name of their God by using it as a means to swear a oath, and then broke that oath, thus bringing the power of the name into disrepute, they elected to STOP speaking the name - and hence it lost its verbalisation (since Hebrew doesn’t use vowels). In replacement, and since the Jews had ONLY ONE GOD, they decided to JUST SAY ‘GOD’, instead of ‘YHWH’. So that is how Trinitarians come to IMPROPERLY DEMAND that ‘GOD’ is used AS A NAME!! Ha! It also is useful to confuse their congregation when unscrupulously claiming that Jesus and the Holy Spirit OF GOD ARE ALSO the ONE GOD. If you use the NAME of God, ‘YHWH’, it would be harder to convince a congregation that ‘YHWH’ is THREE PERSONS.

    But even so, let us therefore continue to say, ‘God’ then in place of YHWH (of use ‘YHWH’ when more definition is required... or even better, just use ‘the Father’)....

    ‘God’ told his favoured nation, the Israelites, that they were to believe in Him, and that He was to be their ONE AND ONLY ONE GOD! I cannot see how Trinitarians turn this into:
    • ‘You are to believe that WE, your ONE God, is THREE PERSONS and you must worship US’
    • ‘We ALONE created all things, all by OURSELVES, and NO ONE, AS GOD, IS BESIDE US’....
      • ‘but no, only ONE OF US CREATED ALL THINGS’... wait...
      • ‘THE FATHER Created Through the Son..’
    So I ask, what does ‘Father’ mean?
    What does ‘Son’ mean?

    • The Holy Spirit is OF THE FATHER
      • - it is His Spirit
    • The Son is OF THE FATHER
      • - he is His Son in the flesh (for sure, God creates, the Father of Spirits creates, an image of himself in his created world
      • An image is NOT the entity that it is the image of... but moreover, why don’t Trinitarians claim that Adam, in fact all mankind, IS GOD because, as well as Luke 3:38, mankind is ‘Made in the image of God’.. therefore, ‘Man’ is also GOD, by trinity decree!
    We say that the image of God sinned and fell away from being Luke 3:38, ‘Son of God’. God was angry and desired to destroy his creation because of its flaw brought by Adam. But he deemed that IF A HOLY RIGHTEOUS AND SINLESS MAN could be found and give up his life as a blood offering then God would relent from the eternal death he levied on mankind.

    It then makes no sense to say that GOD (a part of an indivisible god) was that flesh man who died... where God cannot die... and was raised up again by the same god whom he was.

    And not only that but THE GLORY THAT WAS WITY GOD as a REWARD did the holy righteous sinless man was given to Jesus - who is God, trinity says... So being that, by trinity, GOD GAVE GOD SOMETHING THAT GOD DIDN'T HAVE!!

    But we say that GOD, OUR GOD, YHWH by his name, rewarded a holy, sinless, righteous man (Son, therefore, in the flesh) with the RULERSHIP over the creation of God.

    Why would god claim that he was pleased with god?

    Why would god proclaim god as his son in an adoption declaration?

    Why would god GRANT god with the ability to act AS god and then god gave back the ability to god?

    Why would god reward himself with what he already owned?

    Answers please (this is gonna be interesting if you answer!)
     
  7. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    1,059
    Ratings:
    +93
    Religion:
    Christian
    What does this statement mean to you?
    To me, it simply means that the two are in agreement with each other. Of course, it is, specifically, the Father guiding the Son, snd the Son agreeing to be guided by the Father:
    • “Jesus gave them this answer: ‘Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.’” (John 5:19)
    So there you have it. Since the Son can do nothing except what he [PRIMARY] sees the Father doing, the Son must then agree to do likewise [SECONDARY].

    God is secondary to no one.

    The Son is dependent on the Father: A true Son is completely obedient to the directions of the Father.... Is that a revelation to Trinitarians?

    If the Son is completely obedient to the Father then how is the Son EQUAL to the Father whom he is completely obedient to? Was Adam, who was completely obedient to the Father before he sinned, EQUAL to the Father?
    That is not what the verse says. And, in fact, no verse in the Christian scriptures says such a thing (underlined).
    Again, this is not true (underlined). You rightly say that the Holy Spirit is ‘of God’. An apple of an apple tree is not an apple tree... neither is the spirit of God, itself God that it is of!
    Ha! At last you get it... Phil 2.... YES! Jesus, a man anointed (sanctified) BY GOD, with Holy Spirit and power....
    • “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached--how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.“ (John 10:37-38)
    • “but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.” (John 10: 40)
    • He (Jesus) commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.” (John 10:41)
    So this gospel writer says that it was AFTER the preaching of baptism by John that GOD (define ‘God’, please!) anointed Jesus of Nazareth WITH HOLY SPIRIT AND POWER... and thereafter, having past the temptation test, Jesus went around doing good.

    And note that, EVEN THOUGHT HE WAS NOW ENDOWED WITH THE SPIRIT AND POWER OF GOD HE HUMBLED HIMSELF SO AS NOT TO ABUSE IT*:
    • Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I am well pleased; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.” (Isaiah 42:1)....
    • As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
    • *Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. (Matt 4:1)
      • Having been laid upon with Holy Spirit and power, Jesus is now TEMPTED to see if he would misuse these power or the Holy Spirit abilities. GOD CANNOT BE TEMPTED because temptation requires a desire to gain or retain something not already wholly yours.
    Jesus was on the last leg of his mission before he was to die in cruel circumstances. Once again, he faced the awful dilemma of the mission he was sent on. To reconcile the nations and bring Jacob’s children back to God ... but they rejected him... He was to die without the reconciliation of the chicks to the hen. If you read the Old Testament (at all!!!) you would know then that GOD, MANY TIMES, reconciled the Israelites to himself ... but they later sinned and again fell away.

    You will see that Jesus is so upset by the wayward ‘chicks’ that he speaks derogatorily against them:
    • “For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"
    And you see that Jesus speaks of himself as the ‘he’ who comes in the name of the Lord.

    So, who is ‘the Lord’, in that verse. It is THE FATHER... because no one of credibility comes IN HIS OWN NAME:
    • “I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.” (John 5:43)
    The second clause is, of course, a question to the Jews. If someone comes and says, ‘I am...’ then you accept him???

    “For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.” (John 5:25-26)
     
    #27 Soapy, May 23, 2021
    Last edited: May 23, 2021
  8. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,027
    Ratings:
    +757
    Religion:
    Christian
    Echad can and has been used in the OT as a compound "one" as in Gen 2:24 so it can be a compound "one" at Deut 6:4. The full theology is not revealed then however, that comes in bits in the rest of the Bible.

    Jesus does not change (Heb 13:8) He was God even as a man.

    Jesus is shown to be Yahweh in the NT whether the name Yahweh is in the Bible or not. "God" is not a name and Trinitarians know that.

    Trinitarians worship one God.
    The Father created through/by the Son.
    Heb 1:2 But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through/by whom He made the universe.
    This says the Son, so there cannot be any doubt that the Son was there at the creation as the Son.
    See Heb 2:10 and Romans 11:36 to see that all things are through God.

    Man is a creation and cannot be God. Jesus was not created and has been around as the Son from eternity. This is what Heb 1:2 and John 1:1-3 tell us.
    "All things" means that the one through whom all things were created was not Himself created.
    In the beginning means the start of the creation of all things as in Gen 1:1.

    The body of Jesus died, the man died, but His soul lived on as with all people who die. (Matt 10:28)
    The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are indivisible but distinct, so the Son could become a man and still be God with the Holy Spirit and Father in Him.

    The Son owns all that the Father has (John 16:15)
    The human Jesus inherited that all from His Father. (Ps 2:8, Ps 82:8)

    Yes Jesus rules creation (Rev 3:14) and is on the throne of David, (God's throne because God is the real King of Israel) forever. There is only one Kingdom and God is King and He will rule over the earth (Zech 14:9) This also shows that Jesus is YHWH.
    Jesus is Son by adoption so He can be firstborn from the dead (when the adoption takes place) and so pre-eminent in all things. (Col 1:18)
    Jesus is Son by begetting in Mary.
    Jesus is Son from eternity. (Heb 1:2,John 1:1-3)
    All other sons are types of Jesus.
    The Son gives back the Kingdom so that God can be all in all. (1Cor 15:28) After this the Son still owns what the Father has but things are back to the natural order of things with the Son in submission to His Father as it has been from eternity.
    God was not rewarding Himself, God was working through the redemption when His eternal Son was sent to become a man.

    Tell me what you make of the vineyard owner who sent his son to the tenants. Wasn't his son with him before being sent to the tenants and in the time of the sending of his servants who were beaten and mistreated.

    I hope I have answered enough. I did a post that was about twice as long and lost it when I had to leave it and come back later. I posted it and had to log on again and got an error message and lost the post. :(
    Never mind, all for the best no doubt.
     
  9. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    1,059
    Ratings:
    +93
    Religion:
    Christian
    Last part: Have done the same myself...

    However, I had to laugh so hard at your replies...

    By trinity ideology:
    • God = Father
    • God = Son
    So it really was a mess: at one point saying Jesus is God and then saying God didn’t give to god... but then god owned everything that god owned and even when he gave it back to god god still owned it.

    god created god
    but the created god was from eternity
    So god gave to god
    god appointed god to have power
    god gave back to god

    Try it for yourself... what you said... replace ‘Son’ and ‘Jesus’ with ‘God’.

    Try it... I don’t think even you believe what you just wrote... it shows in what you said... you must have had to try really hard.

    But you didn’t waste your time writing what you wrote because every time you try to defend the trinity fallacy you must see that it does not fit. You are only helped by the unholy additions or modifications to the scriptures made by the trinitarian translators. This is well documented but not, for obvious reasons, widely broadcast.
    Why? Because trinity must exist so that only Jesus destroys it... We, true believers, can only show, warn, dissuade, express the truth to you so as to as to aid the preaching of the truth throughout the whole world - and then the ends comes:
    • “"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Mark 14:62)
    • “At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.” (Luke 21:27)
    Who did you say was coming with the clouds?
     
  10. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,027
    Ratings:
    +757
    Religion:
    Christian
    True the Son is obedient to His Father, but the Son was not a servant until He became a man according to Phil 2.
    The Son being in the Father and visa versa is literally true imo. No reason for it not to be. JWs say that when Jesus said that He and the Father are one, that means that they were in complete agreement and nothing more, but the Jews disagrees and wanted to stone Him for claiming to be God. They knew the language. "One" is in the neuter and so means that Jesus was saying they were one thing.
    Now you are saying that when Jesus said that He is in the Father and the Father in Him that it means that they were in complete agreement.
    There are other places where we can see that the Father is in Jesus. (Col 2:9, 2Cor 5:15 for eg)

    The trinity teaching and the Bible tell us that the Father and Son are equal in nature. They have a Father/Son relationship and so the Son obeys His Father.

    The Holy Spirit is living and is more than just a force and is in God and is everywhere. (Ps 139:7-12) and that is how God is everywhere.

    Jesus no doubt went around doing good in His normal life also but when anointed for His ministry He had plenty of power and time to devote to that.
    So Jesus was the Son of God and a man and could do miracles etc when anointed by the Holy Spirit, soooo?
    Jesus was good however and sinless and as per the words of Jesus that only God is good, He was calling Himself God by saying this.
    God is the creator of all things and life giver. I'm sure there is more to God than that but that is a start.

    As a human the Son of God could be tempted and because He is God He did not yield to the temptations.
    Just like the Son of God could die as a man, but God did not die, Jesus soul lived on (Matt 10:28) or do you have a theology which denies this?

    The Jews never really came fully under the wing of Jesus after David, and even in the time of David it was not all the Jews who came under His wing. The wing of Yahweh.
    The Father granted that the Son also to have life in himself and gave Him authority to judge and either give that life to others or not. The Son was alive when granted to have life in Himself, otherwise it would not say that the Father granted that to the Son. It means that the Son could give or withhold life, not that He was then alive. The Son owned that ability also since it is what the Father has but the Son waits for the Father to give things to Him and does not just take them in His own authority because He has the same nature as His Father.
     
  11. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    1,059
    Ratings:
    +93
    Religion:
    Christian
    Let me get this straight... you are saying that a dutiful Son:
    1. is not a servant to his Father?
    2. does not obey his father’s commands?
    3. is not granted power and authority after he proves himself worthy to wield it righteously?
    4. is equal to his Father?
    I’m glad you said, ‘imo’. You are entitled to have that but not to use it as a statement of truth!!
    You have a strange idea of who your god is if you think that the creation of god could destroy its maker... in this case, God is SPIRIT and the Jews did not believe otherwise. So how were they to think that they were going to ‘Stone God’?!
    Moreover, (and Trinitarians get desperate here...!) Jesus DENIED that he had called himself ‘God’. He even emphasised that he had only says that:
    • ‘God is my Father’
    and that simply using that word ‘God’ was used of other human beings BY ALMIGHTY GOD - ‘and you know it to be true by the very scriptures which you have every faith and belief in’ (paraphrased).
    Jesus then went on to define what he meant by being son to his Father by saying that he was doing the works of his Father - and that is exactly what a dutiful, faithful, and righteous Son should do.
    A servant, a Son, an ambassador, and emissary, and Angel, is never EQUAL to the one who sent him to carry out the task ... how does trinity justify a servant being equal to his master?
    Yes, that’s exactly what it means...
    • Father is the perfect rule maker
    • Son is the perfect rule follower
    • The two are in Perfect union
    Does the Son make rules that the Father follows?

    My thread topic question is about exploring these issues.
    And would they change the meaning of ‘In full agreement’? In fact I don’t see anything in those two verses that pertain to what you are saying (care to check again?)
    ’Equal in nature’!!! What does this mean? Trinitarians throw this line out constantly but when asked to give the definition of it they crumble to pieces and spew out nonsense to cover this lapse. Can you do better?

    What do mean by ‘Equal in nature’? Is that different to ‘being in agreement’ because:
    • Father is the perfect rule maker
    • Son is the perfect rule follower
    • The two are in Perfect union
    And as such, can you explain your meaning in particular where Jesus, praying to the Father, desires that the [apostles] be in him as he is in the Father. In your meaning then, Jesus is desiring that the [apostles] be also God with him and the Father. True?
    • John 17: “17Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
      20“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
      22And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
      24“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
    I don’t see where the Holy Spirit comes into this as a separate debate point but in any case, ‘God anointed the man, Jesus’ WITH HOLY SPIRIT.
    Are you saying that GOD anointed a man, who is God (??!!) WITH A PERSON WHO IS GOD. Can it be so? Is there an instance elsewhere in scriptures that someone is anointed with the Father... or anointed with the Son???

    In fact, what is the point and purpose in trinity of an ANOINTING?
    WHAT??!!!!
    Ah, agreement!!! So you need to develop the truth further and see that without the power of God, without the Holy Spirit, a man can do nothing of true godliness and moreover, things of miraculousness. Notice that Jesus did no miracles until after he was anointed with God’s Holy Spirit (The Holy Spirit of the Father).
    You are joking!!!! So every time Jesus says, ‘I am not God’ this means ‘I am God’ to a trinitarian????
    _
    And that’s why he is ‘Father’:
    • ‘He who creates’
    • ‘He who gives life to...’
    • ‘He who is the bringer into being..’
    • ‘He who is the head’
    Jesus’ SOUL? So there are TWO person of Jesus in trinity?
    Where do you make this absolute nonsense from? The trinity ideology is so fake it’s followers have to stoop to this level to attempt to bring credence to their minds. Once again, trinity is based on expressing partial truth and then adding complete nonsense so that the believers are suitably confused.

    ((please see the follow on below..))
     
  12. Soapy

    Soapy Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Messages:
    1,059
    Ratings:
    +93
    Religion:
    Christian
    Follow on....

    Jesus, a man born of the Holy Spirit of the Father, prophesied to be the messiah that GOD promised after the sin of the first man born of the Holy Spirit of the Father, Adam.

    Jesus spent his former years in dutiful obedience to his earthly parents and in learning the teachings of the Torah (Old Testament). Being sinless and holy, he understood the Torah perfectly and also held to his spirit Father and God, just as most Jews SHOULD have done.

    At the age of 30, God called him into service to fulfil the scriptures written about him. ‘This day, ‘ Jesus said in a synagogue after reading a pertinent set of verses, ‘the scriptures have been fulfilled in me’ (paraphrased).

    This, he spoke, following his anointment by the Holy Spirit of the Father at the river Jordan:
    • “and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice [of the Father] came from heaven [saying]: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." (Luke 3:22)
    • The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,” (Luke 4:18)
    Fulfilling the prophesy of the Father from many hundreds of years earlier:
    • Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.” (Isaiah 42:1)
    Brian2, think righteously about what you respond to what I’ve just written to you. GOD is the Father. There is only ONE GOD and ‘Beside him there is no [other] God’.

    Think about how you view ‘God’?
    You say your ‘God’ is three persons. That means that ‘GOD’ is a title of a GROUP of three persons (if you insist that the holy spiritual is a person)

    This thread asks about the definition of ‘Father’... yet you avoid it. The scriptures says that the CREATOR is the Father and indeed that is exactly what ‘Father’ means.

    The creator God, a Spirit being, BY HIMSELF created a physical world and proposed that a physical human being should be it’s ruler... this human ruler (latterly, the son of man coming with the clouds...’) is classed as ‘SON’, which means:
    • ‘He who perfectly carries out the works of the Father’
    And since the Father is the ONE GOD, the son is therefore ‘Son of God’ because the Son perfectly carries out the works of GOD.

    Brian2, it is ridiculous that your three person God could say that all three persons of himself live in a RANK order while proclaiming to absolute equality... moreover, if all are equal then WHY THE NEED FOR THREE OF THEM?

    Moreover, if the son created all things then why is he not the one called ‘Father’...

    And what did the Father do while the ‘son created’?

    And who created man if there was a consultation BETWEEN THE THREE... and how can there be a consultation between THREE who are in complete agreement... WHO proposed?
    And then ... WHO CREATED man? The Father? The Son?
    If the Son, so he didn’t create all thing BY HIMSELF...
    If all three, THEY did not create BY THEMSELF... that would be a plurality of one creation - which is a nonsense since they are one trinity bring... so the creation by trinity is a load of nonsense!!!

    And just WHY is the Father called Father if he isn’t the Creator (which is what ‘Father’ means here)
     
  13. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,027
    Ratings:
    +757
    Religion:
    Christian
    God serves us and is not a servant by nature. The highest in heaven is the servant of all.
    The Son was granted power and authority but there He had nothing to prove.
    The Son is equal to the Father in nature. (Father/Son- same nature- both have God nature........My son and me have the same human nature, we are both human.)

    The Son learned obedience when He became a man, a servant. (Heb 5:8)
    How did they relate before that? As Father and Son but not a dominant Father over a cowering Son.
    Zech 13:7 Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, against the man who is My Companion, declares the LORD of Hosts. Strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn My hand against the little ones.
    "the man who is my companion" indicates a relationship of equality. There was love between them and they knew each other very well. Do you think that the Father had a list of rules for His Son?
    A list of rules means no complete agreement.
    We become the temple of the Holy Spirit with God in us. In the same way the Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father.
    John 14:10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.
    The Father was living in the Son literally just as the Father and Son live in a Christian. (John 14:23)
    John 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity.
    I see no reason why we should not take these things literally. Jesus cast spirits out of people all the time, literally.

    We are in Christ and He is in us. His Spirit is in us and joined to our spirit. (1Cor 6:17) We receive the Spirit of adoption and become children of God. In that way we are born again spiritually and are a new creation. This happens when we receive the Holy Spirit. The Father and Son come and dwell in us. (John 14:23) In Christ we have a fullness because in Him dwell the fullness of deity. (Col 2:9) and yes we do partake of the divine nature. (2Pet 1:4) but cannot be God because we are human only in nature. We become what humans were meant to be I guess.

    Jesus did not say I am not God when He said that only God is good. WE know that Jesus was and is good and is exactly like His Father, so He is God.
    John 10:25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
    31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
    33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
    34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

    He bamboozled the Jews with Psalm 82 about men being called gods and Him just claiming to be the Son of God. Look at Psalm 82:8 and see that Yahweh inherits the nations and so the Son who inherits the nations in Ps 2 is Yahweh.
    Jesus claiming to be the Son of God means that He is equal to His Father.
    I am in the Father and the Father is in me. It means Jesus is claiming the be God, as the Jews said.
    Christians become the body of Christ literally with His Spirit in us and we are joined to Jesus and to each other.

    The Son does all the things that the Father does and gives us His life and created all things and is our head, our source. He is our all in all.

    Don't you know about "soul"? Are you disagreeing with Jesus (Matt 10:28)
     
  14. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,027
    Ratings:
    +757
    Religion:
    Christian
    What do you mean, "born of the Holy Spirit". Jesus came from the Father into the womb of Mary, Adam was formed from dirt and given life, a spirit. One is a creation, one stepped into creation.

    Why don't you answer the passage I post that show Jesus is Yahwey and the Son from eternity and the Son who created all things without being created?
    Jesus is my God just as He was the God of Thomas.
    Jesus said "I and the Father are one(thing)", not "one" (in agreement).

    The Son is in the Father. Point to the Father and I will point in the same direction to the Son.
    There is one Spirit (Eph 4:4) and that one Spirit IS the Lord (2Cor 3:17) and the Spirit of God IS the Spirit of Christ. (Romans 8:9)

    God is what He is.

    The Word of God comes from the Father and has always been with the Father and is alive and active (Heb 4:12) and the same with the Spirit of God who is living (living water who knows the mind of God and was grieved at Israel in the wilderness and spoke as if He is Yahweh)(Heb 3:7-11, Eph 4:30)
    Where you see 3 separate I see 3 distinct but one united God.

    Of Course the Father is the creator. He is the creator through the Son and He is the life giver through the Spirit. One united God working together.
    All these questions but you ignore the passages that show the Son was there creating in the beginning and so in eternity and had a hand in creating ALL things,,,,,,,,,,,,,and who is called Yahweh and God.
     
  15. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    1,468
    Ratings:
    +355
    [God serves us and is not a servant by nature. The highest in heaven is the servant of all.
    The Son was granted power and authority but there He had nothing to prove.
    The Son is equal to the Father in nature. (Father/Son- same nature- both have God nature........My son and me have the same human nature, we are both human.)]

    That is absolutely wrong!!! God does not serve us!!! We serve our Heavenly Father.
    Jesus's nature is immortal now, before it wasnt. Just because God is his father doesnt automactically make him a God.... He was born a man for a reason. ....

    [The Son learned obedience when He became a man, a servant. (Heb 5:8)
    How did they relate before that?]

    Since Jesus did not pre-exist, he was always a man, there was nothing before that.

    [We receive the Spirit of adoption and become children of God. In that way we are born again spiritually and are a new creation. This happens when we receive the Holy Spirit.]
    No, we are born again spiritually and are a new creation at baptism, read Romans 6 and Gal 3.

    [Jesus did not say I am not God when He said that only God is good. WE know that Jesus was and is good and is exactly like His Father, so He is God.]
    Ughhhhhh.....

    [And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.]
    Well,.... what do YOU think it is.....
    Soul in scripture can mean different things. But never are we given a soul. We are a soul. A living, breathing, soul or a person. It can be written as a person or life, God did not give us a soul, we are a soul.

    This verse is telling us dont be afraid on what man can do to us. Man can take our life, but it is
    God that has the final say on that. If we die, we are still raised at the resurrection. God can still put us back in the grave.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    1,468
    Ratings:
    +355
    You have everything totally backwards, but anyhow.....

    Just remember John 17v3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
    So what is eternal? To know and to understand how God and Jesus really is.........
     
  17. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,027
    Ratings:
    +757
    Religion:
    Christian
    No, it is to know them, not be able to explain a doctrine.
     
  18. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,027
    Ratings:
    +757
    Religion:
    Christian
    Yes we do what God wants us to do and in that way serve Him. But God does not need us to do anything. He could do it all Himself. God is the one who has created us and supplies us with our needs and heals and redeems us etc etc. We cannot give anything to God except ourselves.
    Jesus was born a man to die as the Redeemer. But Jesus dying does not mean that His spiritual side died. That lived on.

    You seem to ignore the passages I give to show Jesus existed before coming to earth and was the Son even at the creation.
    eg. Phil 2:6-8. Jesus was in the form of God then He took the form of a servant and became a man. So He existed before becoming a man.
    Heb 1:2 The universe was made through the Son. iows the Word in John 1:1 was the Son at creation.
    Sooo the Son learned obedience when He became a man.



    It is not the water that does anything it is the Spirit which is given to us. We show our faith in obedience at water baptism and God baptises us with the Spirit.
    Matt 3:11I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.



    Only God is good
    Jesus is good
    so Jesus is God.
    Actually Jesus is exactly like His Father who is good.

    Matt 10:28 tells us that at the death of the body our soul does not die.
    Do you think He meant that when our soul dies our soul does not die?
    Yes it does on and has a message beyond the doctrinal issue of the soul not dying at the death of the body.
    The word soul does have different meanings and it seems you do not accept them all.
    My understanding is that the soul is the whole person. When we are alive, we are a living soul and when we are dead we split into 2 parts. Our dead body is called a dead soul (but the body alone is not the soul). Our spirit which Adam received at his creation, (the breathe of life) then becomes the totality of the person and it is still alive at the death of the body as Jesus said.
     
  19. moorea944

    moorea944 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    1,468
    Ratings:
    +355
    [Matt 10:28 tells us that at the death of the body our soul does not die.]
    Actually it doesnt. It's not saying that at all. I think your "soul" is different from the bible's "Soul".

    [Do you think He meant that when our soul dies our soul does not die?]
    Again... what is a soul? We are not given a soul... We are a soul. Scripture tells us that a soul can die, be hungry, cry, be in sorrow, etc, etc..... If a soul can die, why are you saying it cant?.....

    [The word soul does have different meanings and it seems you do not accept them all.]
    Really? I know what a soul is

    [My understanding is that the soul is the whole person.]
    That is correct

    [When we are alive, we are a living soul and when we are dead we split into 2 parts]
    No idea what your talking about.....

    [Our dead body is called a dead soul (but the body alone is not the soul).]
    Not sure where your getting that from.....

    [Our spirit which Adam received at his creation, (the breathe of life) then becomes the totality of the person and it is still alive at the death of the body as Jesus said.]
    No. The word spirit is pneuma. It means breath. Rauch is the Hebrew word, meaning the same thing. It can mean breath or breathing, mind or mindset, a way of thinking, etc, etc.

    But again, I think your "soul" and "spirit" is different from scripture.....
     
  20. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    4,027
    Ratings:
    +757
    Religion:
    Christian
    I did not say it can't die. All I am saying is what Jesus said. Those who kill the body cannot kill the soul.
    Revelation in the Bible is progressive, we find out more as God reveals it in scripture.
    Matt 10:28 goes on to say that both body and soul can be destroyed in Gehenna.
    Are you disagreeing with Jesus or if not how do you explain the passage?

    But you do know that God gave Adam a spirit that gave him life when He created Adam don't you?
    And you do know that Jesus commended His spirit to God when He died?
    And you do know that the Bible tells us that our body returns to dust and our spirit goes to God?

    What are the souls of the dead under the altar?
    Rev 6:9 And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

    What are the dead in Christ who are brought back with Jesus when He returns and are then resurrected?
    1Thess 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

    Some Christians split up soul and spirit, going by what the Bible tells us about their function. I see the soul as the whole person which includes the body when someone is alive and as referring to the whole person also when someone is dead. 2 parts, the spiritual and physical. The spirit/breathe of life is spirit that gives us life at birth but is more than just a force that gives us life, it is joined to our body and knows our mind and what we feel. (1Cor 2:11--this goes for the Spirit of God also) It is the essence of who and what we are and does survive the death of the body.
    Our body is pictured as a tent (2Cor 5:1) we leave at death.
    But of course we are not complete without a body.
     
Loading...