How and why did you reject christ?

[Saint Frankenstein]

So why do all religions not ignore children and only preach to adults?
Wasn't it Aristotle or was St Francis Xavier who said "Give me the child until he is seven and I’ll give you the man"

"Jesuit maxim widely attributed to Ignatius Loyola; according to Three Myths, by A. Beichman et al. (1981), p. 48, this saying was "attributed to him (perhaps mischievously) by Voltaire.""

Ignatius of Loyola - Wikiquote

 

[QuestioningMind]

What makes a source "verifiable"? What are the criteria?



All you're doing here is explicitly admitting to your own bias. Objectively, the content of a claim has no bearing on how much evidence is required to accept it; to say that different claims require different levels and amounts of evidence based on your personal preconceptions is not objective or rational.

the content of a claim has no bearing on how much evidence is required to accept it

Wow... this gives interesting insight into how your mind apparently works.

So you're saying that when I make the following two claims:
"I saw a man row a boat across the river." & "I saw a man sprout wings and fly across the river." that there is NO DIFFERENCE between the amount of evidence you'd require to accept either claim. The fact that you may have actually seen people row boats across a river and had NEVER seen or even heard about a person sprouting wings and flying across a river wouldn't have ANY bearing on you willingness to accept these claims?

Is that really true? If so then apparently it's very easy to get you to accept an fantastical claim.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Why did you reject Athene after having a genuine personal relationship with her father?

Lol, I thought you were asking me that at first because I did worship the Greek pantheon and still like them.

 

[izzy88]

People don't come back to life. It doesn't matter of you claim magic is involved. Its stilk the idea of dead people returning to life. It doesn't happen.

You evidently completely failed to comprehend what I said.

If a few dead people returned to life in one area 8n the same time frame, people would have noticed, they would have talked, they wpuld have written. But there is no writings of it until decades after the fact.

So, you're basing it on nothing but your own uneducated opinion. There's nothing logical or empirical about that.

Thats a pretty slow spread. There'd be no Crusades if that was the normal speed that need spread then.

I do not follow your logic here, but based on the rest of what you said that's not surprising.

We can be done with this conversation, now; it's obviously not going to be fruitful.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's like you are unable to comprehend what it means to not believe something.

Maybe forget jesus for a moment here and change the subject to someone else that carries less emotional baggage with you, so that you may see the flaw in your reasoning.

Take Santa Claus for example. I don't know if you believe in santa as a child, but certainly you are aware about children believing it and can identify with that somehow, right?

So, when the day comes that you no longer believe that santa exists... would you have an exit-chat with this (as far as you are concerned) non-existing being? Off course you wouldn't... why would you try and have a conversation with an entity that you don't even believe eixsts.... there's nothing there to talk to, after all.

So maybe think it through...
Sure, you can ask someone why they don't believe or why they left whatever religion...
But your follow up questions here are rather absurd.

If you had a personal relationship with Santa Claus and believed that you did, then, whenever time, you rejected it-how did you do so?

Was it a clean break off?
Was it something that you waned off of?
If you had a personal relationship with Santa, was it respectful to have some sense of closure?

It can be applied to anything. The topic is christ.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's baffling to me how many atheists say that they became atheists in their teens - sometimes even earlier. And most of them haven't gone back and had a serious look at whatever faith they left behind since they left it, meaning they're trusting a child (themselves at that age) to have accurately understood complex theology.

Though, this explains why the "God" most atheists argue against is a low-resolution caricature of what the scriptures are actually talking about.

I know there are a few as adults who do the same thing. For me, my teens where in the hospital.

 

[Altfish]

The fact that you believe science and religion are in competition proves that you do not have an accurate understanding of what you've rejected; which, again, is not surprising when you're sticking with a decision you made as a child. And don't think I don't understand atheism; I was one for about a decade. I have never known an atheist to have an accurate understanding of the theology they rejected - including myself when I was one. That also includes the famous ones: Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennett, Harris; all of them have demonstrated a wildly inaccurate understanding of what they're claiming to be arguing against.

But I'm sure you're not going to believe me, because as I said, I've been there before. You cannot learn what you think you already know.

No, I believe that science explains the world and those in it. Religion has nothing to add.
What do you believe religion adds that science can't give?

 

[Altfish]

"Jesuit maxim widely attributed to Ignatius Loyola; according to Three Myths, by A. Beichman et al. (1981), p. 48, this saying was "attributed to him (perhaps mischievously) by Voltaire.""

Ignatius of Loyola - Wikiquote

OK, I don't think anyone is sure who first said it, hence the style of my original post giving two alternatives.

 

[QuestioningMind]

If someone had a relationship with christ and rejected him (dismissed him for whatever reason) how did he or she did so?

Rejection as in dictionary definition.

The latter part is all I was wondering. I know everyone has their biases with god, christ, christianity, and the church but I never really had that and hoping the question wouldn't turn into whether god exists or not and their negative opinion of the idea of his existence in relation to the people who believe in it.

At one time I had what I thought was a relationship with the Tooth Fairy. I'd put a tooth under my pillow and she'd leave me a quarter. Eventually I rejected the notion that she was real and did so by no longer believing in her.

 

[izzy88]

the content of a claim has no bearing on how much evidence is required to accept it

Wow... this gives interesting insight into how your mind apparently works.

So you're saying that when I make the following two claims:
"I saw a man row a boat across the river." & "I saw a man sprout wings and fly across the river." that there is NO DIFFERENCE between the amount of evidence you'd require to accept either claim. The fact that you may have actually seen people row boats across a river and had NEVER seen or even heard about a person sprouting wings and flying across a river wouldn't have ANY bearing on you willingness to accept these claims?

Is that really true? If so then apparently it's very easy to get you to accept an fantastical claim.

You're not getting it.

Whether or not you or I personally believe a claim is irrelevant; we're talking about what it takes to verify a claim. If you want to believe one unverified claim over another unverified claim based on your own a priori, non-empirical reasoning, that's fine, but it doesn't tell us anything about the objective validity of the claims.

From an objective, empirical standpoint, the content of a claim has no bearing on the amount of evidence needed to verify it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

.

I was a nominal Christian at best, although as a young teen I did go to church and was confirmed a Lutheran; all pretty much at the insistence of my mother. After that I seldom went again; however, when I went into the military, for some unremembered reason I decided there was some truth to Christianity and took it up again, and even more earnestly. That lasted until I was discharged, came back home, and was given a book by my cousin called Why I Am NOT A Christian, by the philosopher Bertrand Russell. Russell very convincingly explains why god and immortality are bankrupt ideas, and why he doesn't think Jesus was such a neat guy or even all that wise. I read it, dropped Christianity like a hot coal from Hell, and never looked back.


My reading suggestion for the coronavirus sequestering. . . . . . If you dare.

​

.

Thank you.

Why did you reject Athene after having a genuine personal relationship with her father?

I had a relationship with his son. I don't believe his father exist so it made the practice null.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

At one time I had what I thought was a relationship with the Tooth Fairy. I'd put a tooth under my pillow and she'd leave me a quarter. Eventually I rejected the notion that she was real and did so by no longer believing in her.

Really? Did you believe in the tooth fairy?

(Do people actually define god as one would define the tooth fairy?)

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

I don't know if it's right for me to get involve in this thread [as I was never a Christian to begin with, and what I am about to say is extremely personal], but I'd like to give my output on a specific point here:

It's baffling to me how many atheists say that they became atheists in their teens - sometimes even earlier. And most of them haven't gone back and had a serious look at whatever faith they left behind since they left it, meaning they're trusting a child (themselves at that age) to have accurately understood complex theology.

After you have seen and experienced the horrors I [and many children who grew up in 3rd world hellhole] have seen and experienced, it's nigh-impossible to believe in merciful God [and whatever the faith that endorses this belief]. How can the most merciful, all loving God allow all that to happen is beyond me. It seems like devil is the only reality.

Yes, I am trusting a child that I was once, but the child had up close and personal experience with harsh realities of life.

Although I have to be fair here and would rather give more importance to your opinion as you sound much more intelligent and more experienced than me. I am more willing to put money on your opinion than mine, but still, how can you possibly explain that why the most merciful God allow so much pain and suffering?

 

[Harel13]

I was never a trinitarian

I didn't call you a trinitarian. It was a comment on Christians in general, and also trinitarians.

So, it made christian practice mute when the head guy was never in the picture.

Which is what I'm asking: Do/did you feel you could only ever worship some sort of physical image (even though nobody has any clue what Jesus looked like, much less, of course, God)? And if you didn't believe in Jesus' "father", how did you view Jesus? As the one and only god?

 

[izzy88]

No, I believe that science explains the world and those in it. Religion has nothing to add.
What do you believe religion adds that science can't give?

Meaning.

 

[QuestioningMind]

It was defined.
That is welldefined and understood by the target audience - Apostates and believers alike know what is meant and it's understood.

LOL Which is PRECISELY my point. MANY people who have rejected Christ are NOT Apostates or believers. The very fact that they rejected the notion that Christ is real automatically makes them unbelievers. So you need to clarify that you mean people who believe in Christ but reject him as their savior and NOT people who reject the idea that Christ is real.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Do people actually believe god is like an invisible superman in the sky?

How do you keep a relationship going (if you choose to) if he is silly like a superman in the sky?

How did you reject him?

Did you believe in him as real and then left because you found "he" was silly or did you leave because the idea was silly respite whether or not he existed?

The Christian understanding of God, as far as I can tell, is that God is the invisible king of the universe who sits on an invisible throne in the sky. The invisible Jesus sits at his invisible right hand on this invisible cosmic throne. God/Jesus is described as being bigger than big and stronger than strong, and will one day fly through the air, riding on the clouds to carry believers with him to his magical heavenly kingdom while raining eternal judgment and damnation down upon all who disbelieve in him. Isn't this the Chrisitian conception of God?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Which is what I'm asking: Do/did you feel you could only ever worship some sort of physical image (even though nobody has any clue what Jesus looked like, much less, of course, God)? And if you didn't believe in Jesus' "father", how did you view Jesus? As the one and only god?

To tell you honestly, yes. If there isn't a physical to supplement the spiritual and vis versa, it feels incomplete. That's why Mass was such a good fit when it came to the Eucharist.

Actually, I don't think I had an opinion of jesus at all. The Church defines it as a relationship with the Eucharist. So, I guess the closest is communion with his sacrifice/resurrection/life. Through communion rather than one-to-one.

I never saw christ as the one and only god. I'm not sure how to answer that.

Thank you for asking questions, though.

 

[izzy88]

I don't know if it's right for me to get involve in this thread [as I was never a Christian to begin with, and what I am about to say is extremely personal], but I'd like to give my output on a specific point here:



After you have seen and experienced the horrors I [and many children who grew up in 3rd world hellhole] have seen and experienced, it's nigh-impossible to believe in merciful God [and whatever the faith that endorses this belief]. How can the most merciful, all loving God allow all that to happen is beyond me. It seems like devil is the only reality.

Yes, I am trusting a child that I was once, but the child had up close and personal experience with harsh realities of life.

Although I have to be fair here and would rather give more importance to your opinion as you sound much more intelligent and more experienced than me. I am more willing to put money on your opinion than mine, but still, how can you possibly explain that why the most merciful God allow so much pain and suffering?

It's one of the toughest things to reconcile, at least in our hearts: how could a loving God allow so much suffering and evil?

The answer is fairly simple, though: free will.

All of the evil in the world is the result of human choice. God gave humanity free will so that love would be possible, but this simultaneously made evil possible, because evil is nothing more than turning away from God - it's a lack of some good that should be there, but isn't, because of our choices.

If humanity embraced God, we would all be truly loving, and no one in the world would be in situations like you describe. But we don't all choose love, and even those of us who try to don't do it all the time, and so we have created the world we live in.

But the bottom line is that if God is love, and humans have free will, then evil becomes a real possibility - which we see all over the place. And we're left to either reject that God exists, or to accept that a world where both love and evil are possible is better than a world where neither are.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Christian understanding of God, as far as I can tell, is that God is the invisible king of the universe who sits on an invisible throne in the sky. The invisible Jesus sits at his invisible right hand on this invisible cosmic throne. God/Jesus is described as being bigger than big and stronger than strong, and will one day fly through the air, riding on the clouds to carry believers with him to his magical heavenly kingdom while raining eternal judgment and damnation down upon all who disbelieve in him. Isn't this the Chrisitian conception of God?

No. Not from my experience, observation, and conversation. The only group of people that seem to make god very very personalized is JW from what I gather.

A lot of people will say that god can't be defined (the great I AM) and no one knows the father. People couldn't even "look in his face" in the OT. Since to most people christ is god, the only way to really understand god is, well, through/as jesus.

Christianity wouldn't be a good method of understanding the abrahamic god, in my opinion. Maybe jewish and muslim since there isn't an medium.

I'd probably get a better idea of what/who god is if I talked with the other two faiths. Jesus is kind of throwing it off.... but, I never heard of god being a man in the sky. I've never heard of that until I came on RF, actually.