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Featured How and why did you reject christ?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Unveiled Artist, Apr 20, 2020.

  1. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I must insist, the story of Abraham and Isaac stands on its own. For you to insist that it is only foreshadowing is to diminish it.

    The Temple stood where that story took place, not off to one side. Where to you get the idea that the Temple was off to one side? I suspect that it is just convenient for you.

    You then proceed into dumping, iow trying to overwhelm me with all the information you can muster, rather than staying on topic. THAT is a sign that you are losing the argument. You bring in Moses, Joseph, all sorts of stuff. Sorry, if you want to start sundry threads on these things, fine, but this sub-thread will stay focused on Abraham and Isaac, since that is what you have chosen. Besides, my point will be the same--the stories stand on their own and you are diminishing them by purporting that they are foreshadowing.

    Is there any other point about Abraham and Isaac you want to make?
     
  2. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    And this state was not created by the Messiah. That means it doesn't fulfill prophecy.
    What you cited gives a time of a bot over 1 year.
     
  3. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Not necessarily. Jews have argued over this. Some have said what you have said. Others have said that we are to create a Jewish state as a way of preparing for the Messiah.
     
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  4. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    That context does not exist in the Hezekiah prophecy or nearby--you've subjectively chosen to say he's fulfilled two, the other two are titles only, without justification. I encourage you to consider the truth claims of Yeshua.
     
  5. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    I never said Abraham and Issac are only type and shadow, I'm Jewish, and worship the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

    The Temple stood to the west of the altar, where sacrifices were made, blood was brought a few steps from the altar inside the Temple, to the west. I have led tours of Israel and authored Study Guides and am familiar with the history, ancient and modern, of Mount Moriah. Your point was Jesus didn't die where Abraham sacrificed Issac, my point was Jesus, Issac and the Temple for ceremony/meetings with God are all three co-located on Mount Moriah. Abraham said there how this will be the mountain where God provides, and also said "God will provide HIMSELF THE LAMB here". Only a RAM appeared to answer Issac's inquiry. Yeshua is the Lamb of God come to take the sin of the world, not just Israel, as prophesied throughout Tanakh.

    More specifically to your incorrect response, the altar stood where the Genesis story took place, the Temple entrance was a few steps to the west, for both Solomon's and Herod's Temples. Of course, your insistence that our Temple was where the story took place belies what you said before, that Tanakh began as myths that evolved for us. I guess only the first 21 chapters of Tanakh are myth, then?

    I did not dump on you all the information I can muster, even regarding prophecy. Yeshua fulfilled hundreds of direct Tanakh prophecies and thousands of indirect type and shadow pictures. I don't find your response to "How about Joseph's 100 connections with Messiah?" fulfilling. You claimed I have pareidolia regarding Jesus Christ, yet I demonstrated dozens of parallels between Joseph and Jesus we can see in the testaments--you made not one effort to combat one of them, besides your ironic statement that by presenting dozens of pieces of evidence, I'm losing the debate!

    ...Nor have you made a single response to any of the other points I've made. Ask any Gentile which Israelite child holds God's government, is eternal, and wonderful counselor/prince of peace and see how many respond, "Why, Hezekiah, of course!"

    Would you like dozens of comparisons between Abraham/Issac and Yeshua instead? We can start with our God is triune in A, I and Jacob, who are a Father, a Son and the Servant of God!
     
  6. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Huh? To the day in the biblical/non-Gregorian calendar, 483 YEARS from Passover 30 AD is the decree from Cyrus of Persia to rebuild the Temple!
     
  7. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Ive considered it all. The Christian claims come up short. Woefully short.
     
  8. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Why would I ask someone who has been brainwashed into Christian theology, and is completely unfamiliar with normal Jewish understanding, what their interpretation is? These prophetic books were written by Jews about Jews for Jews. Christian eisogesis is completely irrelevant. You guys cannot possibly understand them within the context of the Jewish culture in which they are meant to be read, because you are trying to superimpose your own religious views.

    Maybe we have been talking over each other regarding the temple placement issue. I though you were arguing that Jesus was crucified on the spot where Abraham bound Isaac. Technically, the courtyards where the sacrifices took place are still part of the Temple, even though they are outside. But since you aren't making the argument about Jesus' crucifixion, it's all water under the bridge. Let's leave it.

    My argument about your pareidolia is that, in a nutshell, these stories exist and stand stand on their own. They do not need to be messianic foreshadowings in order to be complete and full. Not only that, but making them out to be foreshadowings diminishes their important to the basic text.
     
  9. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    What you cited, it doesn't give the time frame you claim.
     
  10. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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  11. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    But we need to have some eye toward foreshadowing, since Moses warned the people were to follow a specific prophet much like himself, and that if they didn't we would have our hair pulled from our head and our teeth pulled from our mouths, the sky above us bronze and the ground below us iron. These things were literally fulfilled in the Shoah, after 2,000 years of diaspora just after we rejected the prophet LIKE MOISHE. Yet G_d in His grace gave us the land a mere three years after VE Day.

    We also need to eye prophecy, since Daniel predicted the time Messiah would die for the sin of the world. And since prophecy foretold the 1948 (Gregorian) date for the restoration of Israel.

    I'm continuing to watch you 1) hand wave at hundreds, even thousands, of prophecies 2) share with me tired canards that I've confronted Toviah Singer and Jews for Judaism etc. about. For example, when was David surrounded by Gentiles, who pierced his hands and feet as they both divided his garments and gambled to take his garments (Psalm 22)?
     
  12. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Joshua.
    Thousands of messianic prophecies????? Surely you want me to take you seriously.

    If you are already familiar with Tovia Singer and the good people from Jews for Judaism, you should be well aware that "piercing his hands and feet" is a mistranslation.
     
  13. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    How so? Not that you addressed the other points--David's clothes both divided and gambled for, David surrounded and persecuted by Gentiles, but are you familiar with the passage? What's wrong with saying Psalm 22 says, "pierced my hands/wrists and feet"?
     
  14. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Psalms 22:17 (22:16 in Christian Bibles) For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have enclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.

    That's when you translate from the original Hebrew, and not from an inferior Greek translation.

    I didn't respond to your "casting lots" thing because it's not worth responding to. Psalm 22 is David reporting his feelings under duress. These are things which happened to him. There is no Messianic prophecy here.
     
  15. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    **
    I see, since King David never had people both divide his clothing and gamble for his clothing, it's not a prophecy of Yeshua (or another Mashiach), rather David sort of FELT like people divided his clothing and also gambled for it. Is that what you are saying?

    Rather, Yeshua's bloody outer garments, bloodied for our salvation IMHO, were torn up, the good parts of the incredibly expensive toga picta divided to four soldiers, and the inner robe Yeshua wore, seamless/one-piece, was gambled for, by lot. The toga picta was otherwise awarded to Caesars and warriors in Roman triumphs on the Capitoline Hill, Mark is appealing to Roman readers that Yeshua is their triumphant King, and not just King of the Jewish people.


    **
    You are claming that Christian English Old Testaments are translated from the Septuagint/Greek? Not so, many come directly from Hebrew to English. However, you've raised a WONDERFUL point:

    1) All Christian English translations I've seen use "PIERCED/DUG INTO my wrist/hands and feet". All Jewish translations use "like a LION, they are at my hands and feet".

    2) Logical possibilty -- the Christians are all deceived, all of their scholars biased, all of them dizzy with errors in the Septuagint and/or with the kind of pareidolia you've said I have . . . the goyim are just that Jesus-crazy.

    3) The word in question is karah. Let's look at every instance of karah in Tanakh, make them ALL say "like a lion" instead of "dug, pierced" like the goyim say, and then YOU TELL ME what karah should be translated as in Psalm 22. This took me quite a while this morning, so please read all of them before making a final decision:



    And he builded an altar there, and called upon the name of the LORD, and pitched his tent there: and there Isaac's servants [like a lion, not dug or pierced] a well.

    My father made me swear, saying, Lo, I die: in my grave which I have [like a lion, not dug or pierced] for me in the land of Canaan, there shalt thou bury me. Now therefore let me go up, I pray thee, and bury my father, and I will come again.

    And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall [like a lion, not dig or pierce] a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an *** fall therein;

    And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall [like a lion, not dig or pierce] a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an *** fall therein;

    And they buried him in his own sepulchres, which he had [like a lion, not dug or pierced] for himself in the city of David, and laid him in the bed which was filled with sweet odours and divers kinds of spices prepared by the apothecaries' art: and they made a very great burning for him.

    Yea, ye overwhelm the fatherless, and ye [like a lion, not dug or pierced] a pit for your friend.

    He [like a lion, not dug or pierced] a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.

    For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they [like a lion, not dug or pierced] my hands and my feet.

    Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: [like a lion, not pierced or stabbed] burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

    They have prepared a net for my steps; my soul is bowed down: they have [like a lion, not dug or pierced] a pit before me, into the midst whereof they are fallen themselves. Selah.

    That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be [like a lion, not dug or pierced] for the wicked.

    The proud have [like a lion, not dug or pierced] pits for me, which are not after thy law.

    An ungodly man [like a lion, not digs up] evil: and in his lips there is as a burning fire.

    Whoso [like a lion, not digs] a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him.

    Shall evil be recompensed for good? for they have [like a lion, not dug] a pit for my soul. Remember that I stood before thee to speak good for them, and to turn away thy wrath from them.

    Let a cry be heard from their houses, when thou shalt bring a troop suddenly upon them: for they have [like a lion, not dug] a pit to take me, and hid snares for my feet.



    Question 1: What would a reasonable person infer is the meaning of karah in Psalm 22, based on EVERY SINGLE ONE of its other translations/uses?

    Question 2: Why do YOU THINK Jews for Judaism and others claim the translation is better rendered "like a lion at my hands and feet"?

    Question 3: What would a lion do ONLY at David's Messiah's/hands and feet? Wouldn't a lion go for the torso in the attack (or the head), and then devour the body, not just the hands and feet?

    Question 4: Can you think of related Tanakh scriptures, like "How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things!"? (The gospel is called "the good news!")


    **
    The truth is that Yeshua bled a lot from His hands and feet, and from the crown of thorns on His brow. When Moishe and the people killed the pesach lambs, they used a plant branch to place blood on the doorposts and lintels (where Yeshua's hands and feet bled) and most of the blood of the lamb went to a bowl the leaders of the people placed in front of the door, where Yeshua's blood went).

    And of course, Yeshua is the Lion of Judah, so there may be a beautiful play in words in the Messianic Psalm 22.
     
  16. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Hi @BilliardsBall. I know I said I was quitting this thread, but I decided to drop by again and this last post of yours really got me. Remember when I told you that it's unfortunate that you don't know Hebrew? This is a prime example of that:
    The word in question is not "Karah". The word in question is כארי - Ka'ari, which means "like a lion". However, since the order of the sentence is a bit jumbled up, Christians time and again, over the ages, looked at the word and said: "Nah, can't be. It must be that those Jews misspelled the word and in fact it should be כארו - Ka'aru." However, Ka'aru isn't a word in Hebrew. It's close to the word כרו - Karu, which means "[they] dug" which, by extension, means "[they] pierced" (what happens when you dig? You're piercing the ground...). So in other words, because Christians couldn't handle the flip-flop order of the sentence they went with "this word has two grammatical errors, let's fix it, and hey, it even lines up now with the Jesus story".

    Now that we're all well-informed on the subject, you may carry on arguing.
     
    #396 Harel13, Jun 12, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
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  17. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Yes, David's garments WERE gambled over. David records it in Psalm 22.

    The psalm literally makes no sense to translate it piercing hands and feet. It does, however, make sense translating it as like a lion. Context, context, context.

    And yes, Christians do use the Septuagint to help their translating process.
     
  18. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    David was in Saul's palace as a youth, then had mighty men, then the kingdom. For Gentiles to surround him completely then remove and divide his clothing would be shame and derision for his bodyguards. The Tanakh records no instance where David fulfilled that Psalm metaphorically or literally. Have you ever read the rest of the Psalm? Most of the verses never happened to David and are Messianic.

    Yes, there is a context to lions and animals in the Psalm. No, the other 15 uses of the word are DUG, PIERCED.

    There's no shame in the Septuagint, for it was in near-universal use among our people in the diaspora, in Greco-Roman lands. Our leaders don't like that it usually leans towards Messianic readings/renderings, but there's nothing wrong with it, especially since it gave all those prophecies over two centuries before Messiah was born!

    Next, you're going to tell me Isaiah 53 is about Israel! :)
     
  19. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Thanks for reading Toviah Singer. Now notice that the "nonsense word" Ka'aru appears 16 times in Tanach, where each time, it means "dug/pierced".

    The explanation is appropriate, as Jesus was not "stabbed" as Toviah points to, but was engraved, his wrists and feet drilled into with His piercing:

    "Judah's sin is engraved with an iron tool, inscribed with a flint point, on the tablets of their hearts and on the horns of their altars."

    "See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me."
     
  20. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    I don't read Rabbi Singer. I can't remember the last time I heard one of his classes. I'm intelligent enough to figure these debate points on my own.

    I take it you either didn't read my post or decided to ignore it, seeing as I already addressed this point. The word Ka'aru doesn't appear in the Tanach, ever (just to humor you, I rechecked in the concordance). Why? Because it's a made-up word. The words you're seeing are either Ka'ari (like a lion) or Karu, which means "[they] dug". Not Ka'aru.
    Let's simplify things:

    כִּי סְבָבוּנִי כְּלָבִים עֲדַת מְרֵעִים הִקִּיפוּנִי כָּאֲרִי יָדַי וְרַגְלָי.

    This is the verse in Hebrew. I emphasized the word in question. As you can see, it is indeed כארי.

    קֶשֶׁר נְבִיאֶיהָ בְּתוֹכָהּ כַּאֲרִי שׁוֹאֵג טֹרֵף טָרֶף נֶפֶשׁ אָכָלוּ חֹסֶן וִיקָר יִקָּחוּ אַלְמְנוֹתֶיהָ הִרְבּוּ בְתוֹכָהּ.

    Here's another verse with the same word. The next word, שואג, means "roaring". That simply doesn't fit with digging or "piercing", as you prefer. "Roaring piercing"? Is that it?

    Now, for Karu:

    רֶשֶׁת הֵכִינוּ לִפְעָמַי כָּפַף נַפְשִׁי כָּרוּ לְפָנַי שִׁיחָה נָפְלוּ בְתוֹכָהּ סֶלָה.

    And another:

    כָּרוּ לִי זֵדִים שִׁיחוֹת אֲשֶׁר לֹא כְתוֹרָתֶךָ.

    Try, just try looking for the word כארו in the Bible. You won't find it. It simply doesn't exist.

    You really don't have to take my word for it. It's all on Wikipedia, all the Christian views, everything:
    They have pierced my hands and my feet - Wikipedia
     
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