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Featured How and why did you reject christ?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Unveiled Artist, Apr 20, 2020.

  1. Tober Canton

    Tober Canton Member

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    If you mean Christianity;

    Well God cannot incarnate, that is antithetical to the Monotheistic/Monistic conception of God as the Absolute Totality, the Creator and Sustainer of All things, which is the root, source, center of all existence manifest and unmanifest.

    Salvation can only come through the internal spiritual process, it does not come through believing that someone died for your sins, that's bad theology (and in contradiction to the Old Testament, which states that God is already merciful and is the only source of salvation).
    Jesus was a man, a very special one nonetheless. He embodied various traits but he was not God-incarnate.
    The term "Son of God" was also a symbolic Jewish term in the Old Testament long before Jesus, so this also cannot be taken literally.

    Salvation is through God-alone.

    All of the thousands of Prophets sent to humanity since earth existed, have always had the same message but it has been understood in different degrees but not always in the totality of it's actual message.
    Jesus was a lot like the son-in-law of Prophet Muhammad (A.S.), Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib.
    Jesus also had his parallels with both Buddha and Krishna.

    The point is that there is always a much bigger picture to consider all of this in.

    I don't reject Jesus, but I do reject Christianity yes.
     
  2. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    A couple of thoughts, if I may:

    1) I read Romans 11 and it says, "All Israel will be saved . . . as the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable." The NT teaches eternal assurance.

    2) I know a lot of Jewish people and all my family is still Jewish--I would gladly debate with you about "prayer lives that shame born agains". I walk regularly with men and women who see miracles. MIRACLES. It sounds like you've not attended a born again church? You'll see ALIVE people there!

    3) God is echad, not yachid, as my WIFE AND I ARE ECHAD (Genesis 2:24) so I'm not sure why you posted echad there. You might as well say, "God is a plural majesty, so I cannot accept the Son as God."

    4) When Jesus was challenged as to whether there is a resurrection, He said I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISSAC and JACOB. I've never left Him, either!

    Tanakh teaches God will become a man, IN Bethlehem was born an eternal ruler (Micah 5:2). A SON was given to govern who is the Eternal Father (Isaiah 9:6), etc.

    I urge you to not only listen to your rabbis and mentors, but to seek God and ask Him re: truth. It was a difficult decision for me to trust Christ (I knew family would sit shiva for me), but I had to go with truth, not just the flow of the crowd.

    After all, I was so zealous I told my now-wife she must convert . . . to JUDAISM . . . before we could marry. Good thing I became born again around that time, made her life a little easier. :)

    Be encouraged! Surely someone with your zeal will find the truth they seek, zealously.
     
  3. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    How could the Jesus story have captured 2/3 of the world if it's not powerful, unique?

    I never said Jesus fulfilled all prophecy--for example, prophecy about His triumphant Return. He DID fulfill HUNDREDS of prophecies about His coming to Earth, IMHO!
     
  4. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Because bull**** captivates the world all the time. Such as psuedo sciences amd debunked methods that are admissible in a court of law. And as for uniqueness, just look at the parade of remakes, reboots, amd endless sequels coming from Hollywood. Amd yetvit captivates
    Thats very easy to do when people wrote your story down a few decades after your death.
    Then it is not possible for him to be the promised messiah of the Jews.

     
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  5. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Hello again. Hope all is well.

    Yes, Paul believed that the remnant of Israel, which did not believe in Yeshua, would be saved. That doesn't translate into eternal assurance. Rebbe Shneerson may be part of the remnant, but I doubt Paul was referring to Jews like Bernie Madoff.

    Are you going to say that your family do NOT have awesome prayer lives? So what. I didn't say that every Jew did. I said I knew many, many Jews that did.

    In every religion, you have those who completely ignore the teachings, those who are nominal about the beliefs, and the core which burns hot.

    It's the same with Christianity. Most of the people I know say they believe in Jesus. Most you would never, ever know it from their behavior. A healthy minority at least go to some sort of church and try to be good people. And then there is the hot core, those highly devout Christians who do indeed have an intimate relationship with God (although it is somewhat fudged by seeing God through the lens of Jesus).

    We've been through this ad nauseam. I see no need to bring it up again. We are simply going to disagree on it.

    I'm not going to spend time trying to convert you back to Judaism. But I'm sure you know what Judaism teaches. I'm sorry this is harsh. I'm not trying to be mean. But we need to be honest here about what Judaism teaches, don't you think? Going to God through Jesus is considered by Judaism to be Shi-tuf, or an association. Halakha considers this acceptable for non-Jews, but absolutely forbidden for Jews. As a priestly people, we have responsibilities that others don't have. Those Jews who choose to go this route are guilty of avodah zarah, and this is why they are considered apostate by us, and lose all rights as Jews.

    Tanakh never teaches that God will become a man.

    Micah 5:1 (I think you misreferenced) never says the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem.

    You are correct that Isaiah 9:5 (9:6 in Christian Bibles) is in perfect tense (meaning it happened in the past, not the future, from when the words were written). Thus it cannot possibly be a messianic prophecy. It is about Hezekiah, and his virtually miraculous victory over Syria in the 14th year of his reign.

    Deuteronomy 17:8-13 gives the scholars of the law (Levites and Judges and their descendants, the Pharisees and rabbis) God-given authority. Thus when I listen to the rabbis, I am listening to God through them. That doesn't mean they are "inerrant." But yes, they have authority.

    I know I have said some tough things in this post. Again, I'm not trying to convert you -- I'm only trying to present to you the Jewish position. I'm surprised you don't know it already.

    I also don't really expect my posts to influence you. Your beliefs are of the heart, not of reason. My posts are really for those who are seeking.
     
    #365 IndigoChild5559, Jun 1, 2020
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  6. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Well, Jesus offers something interesting then, having "captivated" most of the planet for millennia! And being the personal underpinning/guarantor of our rights in most free nations!

    It's not as easy as you said to deceive the world by writing a story decades after a death, after all, all those Israelites could have made counter claims, "But I lived in Jerusalem 30 years ago and Jesus didn't visit on Passover to do miracles and preach to crowds of 10,000 people! I was there!" Indeed, non-Christian Jewish documents testify to the truths of the NT.

    It is certainly possible to be the Jewish Messiah--trust me, I'm Jewish. I encourage you to add goodness and faith to your broad knowledge.
     
  7. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Whom did Hezekiah "wonderfully counsel"? How was he the "Prince of Peace" when Solomon had peace through his reign and Hezekiah fought the Assyrians? Etc.

    My beliefs are of both the heart and reason. All Jewish people will be saved in that day, Bernie or whoever else, praise be to Yeshua!

    Tanakh absolutely teaches that God will become a man. There are at least eight or nine appearances of God to people in some kind of human form.

    And Yeshua lies at the heart of all we believe and hold dear. For example, just this morning I was reading where Abraham told Issac "God will provide Himself the lamb for sacrifice," and a few verses later, a RAM was given. For God would provide Himself, the Lamb, for sacrifice.
     
  8. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Please, please look into who and what King Hezekiah was. He was the most righteous of all the Kings. Kings did things like judge and offer counsel, go to war or rule in times of peace, etc. Hezekiah won a tremendous, near miraculous victory over the Assyrians, which was followed by an era of peace and prosperity in the final years of his reign.

    Hezekiah is called “the ruler of peace” because this name is predictive of God’s fatherly kindness toward him. Punishment for lack of faith in the Almighty will be postponed and peace will prevail during the last years of his rule. “Then said Hezekiah to Isaiah: ‘Good is the word of the Lord which you have spoken.’ He said moreover: ‘If but there shall be peace and security in my days’” (Isaiah 39:8). Fulfillment is found in Isaiah 9:6, when, following the Assyrian defeat, Hezekiah’s prominence increased and peace reigned for the rest of his life (2 Chronicles 32:23). Archaeological evidence shows that there was a sudden population increase in Judah following the fall of the northern kingdom. Apparently, many refugees fled south, thus bringing to fulfillment the statement “that the government may be increased.” This is followed by “and of peace there be no end” (‘ein ketz), a hyperbolic description of indefinite amount concerning the rest of Hezekiah’s reign (cf. Isaiah 2:7, Ecclesiastes 4:8, 16; 12:12).

    Chapter 19 WHO IS THE CHILD?
     
  9. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    No, Tanakh does NOT teach that God will become a man. You have not shown this. You have offered verses NONE of which say that God will become a man.

    There have been times when God has sent an angel to speak for him. This is not a man. This is, as the text says, a מַלְאָךְ "malach" which means messenger, usually translated as angel. Again, God has never come as a man.

    "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor the son of man that he should repent." Numbers 23:19.

    You refer to the story of the near sacrifice of Isaac. So? There is absolutely nothing about Jesus here.
     
    #369 IndigoChild5559, Jun 2, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2020
  10. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Thou shalt worship no other gods beore me is inherently and fundamentally incompatible with our first amendment. God wants apostates dead. Our modern freedoms have greater freedons than what your god allows.
    What about King Arthur? Robin Hood? They likely werent real, but still they live and inspire today.
    Not of that time and decades later.
    And? Im not usually corrected by Jews when I speak about what Jews believe (but I only actually feel confident discussing a few aspects of Judaism with that certainty). Of this, it is impossible for Jesus to be Messiah. He did not create an Isreal state, he did not bring all the Jews home, he did not free the Jews, he did not bring an end to war and bring about the Messianic Age.
     
  11. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Hezekiah was counseled by Isaiah. He counseled no persons in Tanakh, and so cannot be "Wonderful Counselor".

    I know what "no end of peace" means, and it refers to Messiah's return.

    Most of the Gentile world know Him as Prince of Peace, Wonderful Counselor, Everlasting Father, Mighty God.
     
  12. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Double-check your Tanakh references, please, after all, sometimes when people saw the angel, they then said, "We have seen G_d".

    You might also look at the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:22.

    Regarding Issac:

    1) The wood was laid on Issac's shoulders, like Yeshua carrying the cross-beam of His cross

    2) Abraham spread/laid Issac on the "arranged" wood, again like the cruciform shape

    3) Abraham said God would provide a LAMB and then a RAM appeared, specifically, Abraham said, "God will provide HIMSELF, A LAMB"

    4) Issac was the unique, only son of Abraham, Ishamel counting differently, Yeshua was the only begotten Son of the Father, full of grace and truth

    5) Issac means laughter/joy, Yeshua bring us joy

    6) Abraham was despondent to sacrifice his only son, but after three days of travel toward Mount Moriah "lifted his eyes as he saw the mount". The spot where he lifted his eyes, south of Jerusalem, would be looking DOWN on Mount Moriah--Abraham knew by faith that Issac could be restored from the dead (a type of Yeshua)

    7) Abraham resolved to kill his only son, received him back from the dead

    8) Ha Shem said, "I KNOW you reverence me for you did not withhold your ONLY SON from me as sacrifice", THIS is reverence for God, says God in Tanakh

    9) Abraham sacrificed Issac upon Moriah, later, Ornan's threshing floor there was purchased, becoming the altar just outside Solomon's Temple--Yeshua died and rose at The Garden Tomb, also on Mount Moriah

    10) Abraham is the Father, who sent his Servant Eliezer to fetch a bride for his only Son Issac, the Father sends the Ruach to bring us to become the bride of Yeshua

    That's all I have off the top of my head.
     
  13. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Huh? The first amendment is predicated on "God, who created all men equal, endowed us with inalienable rights..."

    Yes, King Arthur and Robin Hood were inspiring fictional characters. We have evidence for Jesus, though:

    1) Archaeology
    2) History
    3) Fulfilled prophecy
    4) Life changes
    5) Human biology
    6) Cosmology
    7) Bible accuracy
    Etc., etc.

    I'm Jewish. I just recently returned from another tour I was helping to lead in Israel! The modern Israeli State wasn't created by Messiah, it is a secular state as prophesied--so you missed something there.

    Messiah WILL bring all the Jews home, freeing them, ending Armageddon.

    It's simple, after Armageddon, Messiah will come--we Jews think it's His first appearance here and not His Second Advent. Biblically, Armageddon in large part is resultant from a rejection of Messiah and the martyrdom of Messiah's people!

    The Bible predicts the Second Jerusalem Temple would be more glorious than the First--but the First had manna, the Moses tablets, Aaron's rod, the ark, etc. so JESUS was there to make it MORE GLORIOUS.

    Daniel 9 predict that 483 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, MESSIAH THE PRINCE WILL BE CUT OFF, FOR HUMAN SIN. You guessed right if you guessed that 483 years past the decree was 33 AD, PASSOVER!

    I'm Jewish. I no longer go by what every Jewish teacher tells me on the Internet but by truth.
     
  14. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    No. The freedom of religion he prohibited. Freedom of speech he prohibited. Freedom of association he prohibited. And no, he allows for slavery--and they are considered property accordimg to the Bible--so he did not bestow all people are created equal or endowed by their creator (mine is Nature, not Jehovah) with certain unalienable rights. Its not all men are created equal with the Bible. They are equal before god. Then it goes his prophets, and there is the kings and nobles. Then men. Amd you have slaves. Adults and children. Eunuchs are not equally entitled. And then low on the rungs we have women.
    We have at best scant evidence there was probably someone who inspired the stories. 4, 5, and 6 give no such evidence. 3 and 7 havent been proven or adequately deminstrated. 1 and 2 do not suport much of the Bible. It supports many of the locations, some kf the people, but not much else.
    No, you apparently did because the Messiah is supposed to create a Hebrew state. Jesus did not do this.
    Yes, according to Jewish prophecy. Jesus failed to fulfill this.
    Is so Christian in base that it's fundamentally incompatible with Judaism.
    Threescore amd two weeks is a year and a few months.
    So? No other Jew I've talked to would agree agre with you.
    Again, that is so Christian it can't be Jewish.
     
  15. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Most of the Gentile world sees him through lenses that have Jesus printed on them. Of course they see Jesus in error. Your objections above are moot. The answers I've already given are satisfactory. You simply cannot accept them because they go against your religion.
     
  16. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    BB, BB, BB.... The story stands on its own. It is not meant to be a foreshadowing of the Messiah. You are seeing bunny rabbits in the Rorschach ink blots. It's like Catholics seeing the Virgin in patterns on tiles or even on their toast. When something is the focus of your life, you tend to see it everywhere.

    And by the way, the place where Abraham went to sacrifice Isaac had a Temple on it. Jesus was not crucified there.

    A LOT of your points are really stretching. For example, saying that Isaac means laughter and Jesus brings you joy. Or... you have no idea whether Isaac was laid out in cruciform shape or not. It's just desperation on your part.
     
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  17. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    There are many issues here. Most important IMHO:

    1) There IS a Jewish State NOW, so your argument that Messiah has to make Israel Jewish is clearly a misunderstanding of the Hebrew scriptures

    2) Daniel predicts 69 "shabuas" or sevens would pass, in context, years - PRECISELY 483 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem was . . . Passover 30 AD, the DAY Jesus died!
     
  18. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Interesting, you know for sure that Hezekiah was the Prince of Peace and Wonderful Counselor, but that MIGHTY GOD WAS JUST A NAME, HE REALLY WASN'T THE MIGHTY GOD, BEING A MAN, SINCE GOD WOULD NEVER BE A MAN. Likewise, Hezekiah was granted a stay of execution and more years, but never was THE ETERNAL FATHER.

    Where did you learn to split prophecies in half...?
     
  19. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    No, the place where Abraham sacrificed Issac had an ALTAR on it. The Temple was just west of the altar.

    Jesus was crucified on Mount Moriah, which mount contained the Temple and Altar. He died outside the city, just as the scapegoat who bore our sin was driven out from the Temple courts.

    I've read most of Genesis and Exodus this week. Cruciform and cross signs are prevalent.

    Where did Moses meet God the first time? A burning bush, yet not consumed--Jesus received the fire of Heaven upon and old tree.

    How did Moses sweeten bitter waters? Throwing a TREE on the waters.

    How did Moses destroy the Amalekites in their first battle? Holding up his staff from an old TREE, with Aaron and Hur holding his arms as they raised and lowered, and as he tired, he sat upon a ROCK--Hur being from Judah, like Messiah--Moses was a perfect picture of the crucified Christ elevating and lowering his arms to breathe, with the Roman "mercy seat" on the cross (meant to lengthen the agonies of the cross).

    How did Joseph resemble Jesus Christ?

    He is the object of his father’s special love.
    He had promises of divine exaltation.
    He was mocked by his family.
    He was sold for pieces of silver.
    He was stripped of his robe.
    He was delivered up to the Gentiles.
    He was falsely accused.
    He was faithful amid temptation.
    He was thrown into prison.
    He stood before rulers.
    His power was acknowledged by those in authority.
    He saves his rebellious brothers from death when they realize who he is.
    He is exalted after and through humiliation.
    He embraces God’s purpose even though it brings him intense physical harm.
    He is the instrument God uses at the hands of the Gentiles to bless his people.
    He welcomes Gentiles to be part of his family.
    He gives hungry people bread.
    People must bow their knee before him.

    And...

    He foretold dreams for a baker and cup bearer, Jesus gave the Last Seder's bread and wine with berakoht

    He had the bread of life, when all came to him for bread

    He was second only to Father Pharoah

    His brothers first rejected him, then bowed to him

    His father took him for dead before he was restored to him

    Etc., etc., etc.
     
  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    it's called context
     
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