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How and out of what did God create the universe?

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Have you heard of the fallacy of infinite regression? If we live in a universe that is constantly changing from one state to another, then we live within a framework of time. So if there are events that are happening right now as we speak, these events are proof that the universe had a beginning. If the universe had no beginning, meaning that the universe had an eternal and infinite past, then time as we know it would never get to where we are at.

There is an analogy for this. If there is a bird sitting in a tree and I was getting ready to shoot it, the only way for me to shoot it is if I ask permission to shoot it. So the person whom I ask permission to shoot it also needs to ask permission to someone else for him to give permission to the guy who will allow me to shoot. So this line of people keeps going down, with people asking the next person in line for permission.

If this line keeps going and going infinitely, will the time ever come where I will shoot the bird? It won't.

If a time comes where I am able to shoot the bird, that means that there was one guy all the way at the end of the line who did not need to ask anyone for permission. This means that the universe had a beginning.
Haha...there is no time, except as a mental abstraction from the eternal.

Now God is synonymous with eternity and infinity. Once the human mind has abstracted a sense of his personal existence from the One God of which he is an actual indivisible aspect, he then sees himself as being separate from the eternal God, then the error of duality and finiteness arises in the mind.

Next he sees the relative movement of other apparent separate aspects of the one God, and measures the patterns and cycles and abstracts the concept of time from what in fact is the eternal ceaseless movement of aspects of God.

But from the Divine perspective, there is no duality, there is no time, there is only the eternal oneness aka God in which all apparent conscious entities live , move, and have their being.

Btw, you didn't respond to my questions to you about the state of your creation from nothing God.
 

OurCreed

There is no God but Allah
Haha...there is no time, except as a mental abstraction from the eternal.

Agreed, time is an illusion. But it still exists in our perspective. Technically speaking, if God is eternal and infinite, then everything else besides Him does not exist. He is infinitely beyond whatever He has created, because whatever He creates, is infinitely less than Him.

For your other points, I am not disagreeing with them. My point is just that for the human perspective, there is a time and beginning of everything that has happened, and there will also be an end.

For God, the beginning and end has already happened, but not for us.

And lastly, what question of yours do you want me to respond to?
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Agreed, time is an illusion. But it still exists in our perspective. Technically speaking, if God is eternal and infinite, then everything else besides Him does not exist. He is infinitely beyond whatever He has created, because whatever He creates, is infinitely less than Him.

For your other points, I am not disagreeing with them. My point is just that for the human perspective, there is a time and beginning of everything that has happened, and there will also be an end.

For God, the beginning and end has already happened, but not for us.

And lastly, what question of yours do you want me to respond to?
Yes, I understand and agree with your first two statements...

I don't understand what you mean by....."for God, the beginning and end has already happened"? To my understanding, God is beyond all concepts such as beginnings and endings...God is absolute. Only things of finite form have beginnings and endings.....galaxies, stars, planets, people, cells, etc.. but the underlying source and unity is eternal...

Re questions, I will not pursue it now, if the matter arises again, I will ask again...
 

OurCreed

There is no God but Allah
Yes, I understand and agree with your first two statements...

I don't understand what you mean by....."for God, the beginning and end has already happened"? To my understanding, God is beyond all concepts such as beginnings and endings...God is absolute. Only things of finite form have beginnings and endings.....galaxies, stars, planets, people, cells, etc.. but the underlying source and unity is eternal...

Re questions, I will not pursue it now, if the matter arises again, I will ask again...

It means that God Himself is the beginning and the end. It's two attributes given to the Creator to describe that He is the only one who is, and everything else beside Him is only between Him. He is the first and the last. Of course, He doesn't exist in a temporal state, it's just a description.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
It means that God Himself is the beginning and the end. It's two attributes given to the Creator to describe that He is the only one who is, and everything else beside Him is only between Him. He is the first and the last. Of course, He doesn't exist in a temporal state, it's just a description.
Got it...thank you..:)
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
Besides all this word salad,
going back to the original question,
from what did 'God' make all this stuff.
~
Now...if one believes in Genesis, there was nothing but God.
He had nothing to make anything from.
Now...there was a void, nothingness except God.
But...where was God in all this 'nothingness', all alone Himself.
Looking around the 'void' to find something to make something else from.
A priest says that He found the 'singularity' from where He got the stuff He needed.
And that settles that !
And He made everything !
Only thing I question, from where'd the singularity come ?
Damn.....same old nonsense, I guess he made that also, from nothing.
It must remain circular, now....
someone mentioned an ending, what is going to happen then ?
Nuff Stuff
~
'mud
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Now...if one believes in Genesis, there was nothing but God.
He had nothing to make anything from.

I disagree. Genesis says in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. It does not specify how he created it. Note also that the word used in the bible for create can be more accurately translated as formed. In Mormon theology God uses the word organized.
In the book of Abraham in Chapter 3 we have the following:

1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods,organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

2 And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters.

3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.

4 And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.

5 And the Gods called the light Day, and the darkness they called Night. And it came to pass that from the evening until morning they called night; and from the morning until the evening they called day; and this was the first, or the beginning, of that which they called day and night.

6 And the Gods also said: Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and it shall divide the waters from the waters.

7 And the Gods ordered the expanse, so that it divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so, even as they ordered.

8 And the Gods called the expanse, Heaven. And it came to pass that it was from evening until morning that they called night; and it came to pass that it was from morning until evening that they called day; and this was the second time that they called night and day.

9 And the Gods ordered, saying: Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the earth come up dry; and it was so as they ordered;

10 And the Gods pronounced the dry land, Earth; and the gathering together of the waters, pronounced they, Great Waters; and the Gods saw that they were obeyed.

A very interesting scenario appears from this version of the creation story: Firstly the words that are used instead of created are "organized" and "formed". Secondly it appears that God spoke and was obeyed. So it appears the materials out of which God created the earth had intelligence inside themselves enabling them to hear God's instructions and follow them.

This is consistent with some of Jesus' miracles: When there was a storm Jesus spoke to the wind and the seas and was obeyed.
39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.

40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?​

So in other words God doesn't magically make things move. Instead, he speaks to matter and the intelligence that is inside the matter hears him and obeys his instructions. One would assume that is how Jesus managed to change water into wine. He communicated with the intelligence that is within the water and told it to reorganize itself in a manner that would make it become wine.

And finally in Doctrine and Covenants section 93 we have the following:

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;​

From this it is clear that there are somethings which, like God, have always existed. They were never created because the cannot be created: they are eternal. But they can be organized and ordered so that from these buildings block many great and wonderful things can be created.
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
hey Thanda,
You disagree with what ?
The word 'made' ?
The rest of it is a sermon based on published mythology.
Interesting format though, but we have heard it all before.
I suggest that you do some reading here and there and everywhere.
But.....pretty good form.
~
'mud
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
hey Thanda,
You disagree with what ?
The word 'made' ?
The rest of it is a sermon based on published mythology.
Interesting format though, but we have heard it all before.
I suggest that you do some reading here and there and everywhere.
But.....pretty good form.
~
'mud

I disagree with what you said in the quote of course. You stated that if one believes Genesis then they must believe that God created the world from nothing. That is untrue.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
I disagree with what you said in the quote of course. You stated that if one believes Genesis then they must believe that God created the world from nothing. That is untrue.
No, not really. If God just assembled the universe from existing material, then he is not the creator - he was just the assembler. It would leave the question of creation unanswered.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I disagree. Genesis says in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. It does not specify how he created it. Note also that the word used in the bible for create can be more accurately translated as formed. In Mormon theology God uses the word organized...

This is not accurate. The word ברא "BaRa'" (used about the creation of the heavens and earth) means to create. The word יצר "YaTZaR" means to form. Look at Gen. 2:7 where man is "formed" from the earth.

Also, there are a number of other grammatical mistakes in your translation. You keep translating "ELoHIM" as "gods". In Hebrew, the form of the verb used indicates properties of the subject. In this chapter, all the verbs associate with "ELoHIM" are in the singular form, indicating that "ELoHIM" is meant to be understood as a singular entity.

The word "ויעש" in Gen. 1:7 means "and He made", not "and they ordered". There are numerous examples of the root word עשה used throughout Scriptures.

Gen. 1:10 does not end with the words "and the gods saw that they were obeyed." The words are "וירא - אלקים - כי - טוב" which translates to "And saw - ELoHIM - that - good" or "And ELoHIM saw that it was good."

Really, whatever you are using for a translation is horrible at it. There are plenty of better translations out there.
 
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Thanda

Well-Known Member
No, not really. If God just assembled the universe from existing material, then he is not the creator - he was just the assembler. It would leave the question of creation unanswered.

It would not: the question of creation was answered. There are some things that were not created and cannot be created - they are eternal and have always existed just like God himself.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
This is not accurate. The word ברא "BaRa'" (used about the creation of the heavens and earth) means to create. The word יצר "YaTZaR" means to form. Look at Gen. 2:7 where man is "formed" from the earth.

Also, there are a number of other grammatical mistakes in your translation. You keep translating "ELoHIM" as "gods". In Hebrew, the form of the verb used indicates properties of the subject. In this chapter, all the verbs associate with "ELoHIM" are in the singular form, indicating that "ELoHIM" is meant to be understood as a singular entity.

The word "ויעש" in Gen. 1:7 means "and He made", not "and they ordered". There are numerous examples of the root word עשה used throughout Scriptures.

Gen. 1:10 does not end with the words "and the gods saw that they were obeyed." The words are "וירא - אלקים - כי - טוב" which translates to "And saw - ELoHIM - that - good" or "And ELoHIM saw that it was good."

Really, whatever you are using for a translation is horrible at it. There are plenty of better translations out there.

You don't seem to understand that the text I used was not from the bible. It was from the Book of Abraham: LDS (Mormon) scripture.

Secondly in Genesis 3:22 it is written: And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:.

The Lord is obviously speaking to someone. Someone, who is like him, (or perhaps some people) is there with him. My belief is that the God the Father (Elohim) was speaking to Jehovah (Jesus). In Hebrews chapter 11 we get the same sentiment:
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
You don't seem to understand that the text I used was not from the bible. It was from the Book of Abraham: LDS (Mormon) scripture.

Secondly in Genesis 3:22 it is written: And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:.

The Lord is obviously speaking to someone. Someone, who is like him, (or perhaps some people) is there with him. My belief is that the God the Father (Elohim) was speaking to Jehovah (Jesus). In Hebrews chapter 11 we get the same sentiment:
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

My mistake then. I didn't realize you were quoting from a different book altogether.

Your point from Gen. 3:22 is not valid. There is also no discussion of the creation of the angels. Yet we find them throughout Scriptures. G-d is talking to the angels that He had already created.

Hebrews is not in the Jewish cannon.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
My mistake then. I didn't realize you were quoting from a different book altogether.

Your point from Gen. 3:22 is not valid. There is also no discussion of the creation of the angels. Yet we find them throughout Scriptures. G-d is talking to the angels that He had already created.

Hebrews is not in the Jewish cannon.

You are correct. There is no mention of the angels and when they were created. It is clear therefore that there is much that we are not told in the Genesis about the creation. Or more tellingly, the term "in the beginning" does not mean quite what we think it means. Perhaps it does not mean the beginning of eternity. Perhaps it simply referencing the creation of this earth and its heaven. For example, in explaining how a car was made, a manufacturer might begin by saying "In the beginning we had to decide on the color we wanted...". The term in the beginning in this instance in no way suggests the beginning of time: just simply the beginning of the creation of the car.

So likewise we can draw no conclusion about the state of the universe before God created the Heaven and the Earth from Genesis. We cannot say there was nothing.

Secondly the word create, even if it means create and not formed it still means form! Why do I say that? If I create something it means it was not there before. However it does not mean it was made out of nothing. So if I create a statue - that statue was not there before; however I did not create it out of nothing; there were materials I used to create it. The materials are not the statue but they are also not nothing. So God creating the heavens and the earth does not signify that he created it out of nothing. But if he created it out of something then we may as well say he formed the Heaven and the Earth.

And lastly, I am not a Jew: It is not relevant to me what they do or do not consider cannon.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
You are correct. There is no mention of the angels and when they were created. It is clear therefore that there is much that we are not told in the Genesis about the creation. Or more tellingly, the term "in the beginning" does not mean quite what we think it means. Perhaps it does not mean the beginning of eternity. Perhaps it simply referencing the creation of this earth and its heaven. For example, in explaining how a car was made, a manufacturer might begin by saying "In the beginning we had to decide on the color we wanted...". The term in the beginning in this instance in no way suggests the beginning of time: just simply the beginning of the creation of the car.

So likewise we can draw no conclusion about the state of the universe before God created the Heaven and the Earth from Genesis. We cannot say there was nothing.

Secondly the word create, even if it means create and not formed it still means form! Why do I say that? If I create something it means it was not there before. However it does not mean it was made out of nothing. So if I create a statue - that statue was not there before; however I did not create it out of nothing; there were materials I used to create it. The materials are not the statue but they are also not nothing. So God creating the heavens and the earth does not signify that he created it out of nothing. But if he created it out of something then we may as well say he formed the Heaven and the Earth.

And lastly, I am not a Jew: It is not relevant to me what they do or do not consider cannon.

Regarding your first point. The first word in Genesis doesn't mean "In the begining." It means "In the beginning of."

Regarding your second point. The reason why "create" does not mean ex nihilo in a human context is because we can't, not because it doesn't. But we don't have that problem when discussing G-d.

Thirdly, you are correct. I was only pointing out that your quote of Hebrews means little to me.
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
There was not a 'void', so God organized and formed everything.
There were no angels, just Jesus and God and the waters.
And everyone obeyed what the Gods commanded, especially from Jesus.
And the winds blew and man was there forever and more obedience.
And they drank the wine and got sloshed and got some spirit.
And once again, you forgot about where the water came ?
That's why I can't believe all this crap !
~
'mud
 
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