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How Absolute is an Absolute Truth ?

kreeden

Virus of the Mind
This question came to me a few days ago . I have a friend with whom I discuss Spiritual matters and with her believes , one would have to be quite open minded { or one would think :) } . However , I often upset her with what to me is a very general and innocent statement . It only took me three years to realize that she believes in absolute truths , where I do not . To me , even if a truth was absolute , once our subjective minds got a hold of it , it would cease to be so . Everything has a fuzzy area , in my opinion .

I believe that this is also the reason why many can't accept other's beliefs . If you believe that your truth is absolute , then any other truth has to be lacking , doesn't it ?

I noticed a short disagreement on another thread , that I am happy was settled . :) And I wondered if that was the cause ? What do you think about absolute truths ? Do they exist ? And just how absolute are they ?

Edited to Add : I'm not really interested in a debate over rather God's truth is absolute or not . :) I'm more interested in how you feel that the concept effects the way you see other believes .
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
kreeden said:
What do you think about absolute truths ? Do they exist ? And just how absolute are they ?
Sure, I absolutely believe that absolute truths exist. And they're absolutely absolute. That doesn't mean all truth is absolute. But truth as God sees it is. For us, here on earth, the goal is to recognize and come to accept the truths that are absolute and be willing to concede that others are simply subjective. I'm totally fine with the idea that God manafests Himself to some people in one way and to others differently. I have no trouble accepting that, when seen from your perspective, something I believe is outlandish. But I can't go along with "everything's true, we're all the same, and God doesn't care what you believe."
 

ChrisP

Veteran Member
Katzpur said:
Sure, I absolutely believe that absolute truths exist. And they're absolutely absolute. That doesn't mean all truth is absolute. But truth as God sees it is. For us, here on earth, the goal is to recognize and come to accept the truths that are absolute and be willing to concede that some truths are simply relative.
One of the things that drew me to Taoism, is that it recognises the lack of absolute truth in this world. Of course that said, the statement "There are NO absolute truths" is an absolute truth in itself.

So there must be at least one; To prove the exception if you will. But then there is an absolute truth, and we have Absolute truths exisiting. This becomes a paradox.
 

kreeden

Virus of the Mind
Of course you believe that God's Truths are Absolute Katzpur . :) I'm not questioning that .

I guess what I'm asking is that if you believe that you know that your truth is ... truer then , lets say mine , then how can you have an open mind about my truths ? And I do believe that you do have a very open mind . Most here do . :)
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
Katzpur said:
But I can't go along with "everything's true, we're all the same, and God doesn't care what you believe."
Lol, i'm the exact opposite - this, in a sense, is exactly what i believe.

Kreeden - for me, i find my open minded approach to understanding deity allows me to view others beliefs as equal to my own. And, although sometimes i question the validity of anothers beliefs concerning the history of the universe and of the world - when it comes to their concept of deity i accept entirely the validity of it. Even if sometimes i don't quite understand it.
To some it up, see my sig :) .
 

kreeden

Virus of the Mind
ChrisP said:
One of the things that drew me to Taoism, is that it recognises the lack of absolute truth in this world. Of course that said, the statement "There are NO absolute truths" is an absolute truth in itself.

So there must be at least one; To prove the exception if you will. But then there is an absolute truth, and we have Absolute truths exisiting. This becomes a paradox.
A Truth can sometimes be Absolute . But like everything else , truth changes . So there is no paradox , or is the truth really absolute . :) Or that is how I see it . ;)
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
kreeden said:
Of course you believe that God's Truths are Absolute Katzpur . :) I'm not questioning that .

I guess what I'm asking is that if you believe that you know that your truth is ... truer then , lets say mine , then how can you have an open mind about my truths ? And I do believe that you do have a very open mind . Most here do . :)
Well, maybe if you were to give me an example of something that I might see as an absolute truth, kreeden, I could express my feelings on the subject a little bit better. When I say that certain truths are absolute, I guess I'm thinking in terms of Christian doctrines and the differences between them. I'm thinking of things like the nature of God, whether He is a Trinity or not, things like whether baptism is required of us or not, whether the Lord's Supper should be understood to be symbolic or literal. In terms of these kinds of things, I don't see how diametrically opposed opinions can both be true. I guess that's what I was getting at.
 

kreeden

Virus of the Mind
I can't be answering very post here . :) But I believe that your your approach is very close to mine Halcyon .

Now I'm going to be quiet for awhile ...
 

kreeden

Virus of the Mind
Ok , I lied . :) I have to respond to you Katzpur .

I don't want this to become a debate , so it is very hard to point at any one thing as an excample . I would assume that most people with strong traditional believes would believe in Absolute Truths , to some degree at else . What I am wondering is how you think those views effect your view of other's views .

Hmmm ? I appear to be leading you Katzpur . And that isn't my intent . You see , to me everything is both symbolic and literal at the same time . Or at lest a symbolic truth is no less then a literal truth .

I guess that your answer was a good one . :) Sorry about that .
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
kreeden said:
I would assume that most people with strong traditional believes would believe in Absolute Truths , to some degree at else . What I am wondering is how you think those views effect your view of other's views .
Well, I try to respect other people's opinions for one thing. I don't think that being wrong on one point of doctrine makes everything else someone believes wrong. I have also never said that I believe that God condemns anyone for getting "truth" mixed up with "error" occasionally. I've never said that because I don't believe it. I also don't think that my saying, "I believe I'm right about this" means "Therefore, I am a better person than you are." Am I making any sense?
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
The professor said, "There is no such thing as absolute truth!"
The student asked, "Are you sure?"
The professor replied, "Absolutely!"

Believing that there is no absolute truth in itself is an absolute truth to one who absolutely does not believe in absolute truth. I myself, believe there are absolute truths. I may say, hey, watch out, a truck is coming toward you, and someone may say I do not believe it. Well, they are welcome not to, but the truck is still gonna hit them. As in the physical world there are absolutes, or laws, (of gravity, thermodynamics, etc.), so too, I believe in the spiritual world there are spritual absolutes that, not only exist, but that we can also discover and know.

How does this effect my views of other beliefs? For me, I believe all man is given some light and can search for more. The creation, and our conscience, in the Bible, these things show us that there is a creator, and that he wrote his laws in our hearts. I believe that to be interested in spiritual things, no matter what the religion is very good, for many people are not interested in spiritual things at all. As we begin to examine and experience our religions, and if we are truly seeking to know 'the truth', the Bible says you will find God if you search with all your heart, that you can know the truth and it will set you free. Of course Jesus says, "I am the truth." I feel that spiritual truths can be found in all religions, and I believe there are falsehoods in religions. To make a statement, for example, one religion says Jesus did not die on the cross, another says he did not rise again in a physical body. Well, he either did or did not die on the cross, and he either did or did not come back to life in his physical body. One is either absolutely true, and one is absolutely false or in error. So, we may examine statements of religions and then come to the truth if we search and think and honestly want to know what is the truth.

I will say, that my believing in certain absolute truths would come into conflict with someone who did not believe in absolute truths or believed opposite of what I believed was the truth. I look at the great moral character of Jesus, who said he was the truth, and think, he cannot be a liar, and I think, he is not crazy, he put to silence his opponents with everything he said, so I have to believe he was telling the truth. I believe God, who said he would preserve his word to us from, "this generation, forever." and so I believe the Bible, and measure all other 'truths' by it.

As humans, if we do believe in absolute truth, we are not perfect, we will disagree. But I believe if we really want to know the truth, we will find it. "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. He who the Son sets free is free indeed!"
 

Pah

Uber all member
ChrisP said:
Taoism ... recognises the lack of absolute truth in this world. Of course that said, the statement "There are NO absolute truths" is an absolute truth in itself....

So there must be at least one; To prove the exception if you will. But then there is an absolute truth, and we have Absolute truths exisiting. This becomes a paradox.
"This is NOT a pipe"

I hope this is not too subtle
 

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nightwolf

Member
I think our truths are brought on by values and faith. Of course there are truths that are common to all like the example with the truck, that is a truth, you will be hit. I think we adopt certain things to be our own absolute truths. I try not to make my own personal absolute truths, I think it helps keep me open minded. Only truth I hold is if someone hurts my family, they will suffer.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Devil's advocate time, or class dunce, whatever...

Forgive me, but isn't, "All livin beings are born to die", an absolute truth?

At some point in their life all humans will laugh and smile. (absolute truth?)
Go ahead. Prove it wrong.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
mr.guy said:
Not in the instances of stillbirth.
Ok, maybe I am not getting this. Wouldn't a stillborn child be precluded from "All living beings are born to die" as they were not born alive in the first place?
 

kreeden

Virus of the Mind
Katzpur said:
Am I making any sense?
You are making more sense then I . :) I must apologize . I have came to a few conclusions within the friendship I spoke of and tried to apply them to life in general . Now that I have thought a little depper about it , it appears to have been little more then my own arrogance . Of course the simple act of believing in an absolute truth doesn't make one intolerant of other's beliefs . That would depend more upon the " truth " and how it was applied .

Once I listened to what I had been saying , I started to realize where I was headed with this . I do apologize to everyone , specially to you Katzpur .
 

mr.guy

crapsack
YmirGF said:
Ok, maybe I am not getting this. Wouldn't a stillborn child be precluded from "All living beings are born to die" as they were not born alive in the first place?
You're challenge didn't stipulate that, as being living was the qualifier, not being born alive. It required them to be living (at some point), to be born and to die after being born. If one is dead before being born, they can't be "born to die" without dying again.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
kreeden said:
You are making more sense then I . :) I must apologize . I have came to a few conclusions within the friendship I spoke of and tried to apply them to life in general . Now that I have thought a little depper about it , it appears to have been little more then my own arrogance . Of course the simple act of believing in an absolute truth doesn't make one intolerant of other's beliefs . That would depend more upon the " truth " and how it was applied .

Once I listened to what I had been saying , I started to realize where I was headed with this . I do apologize to everyone , specially to you Katzpur .
There's absolutely no need for an apology at all. ;) I think you understand what I was trying to get at, and I'm glad I was finally able to explain it the way I wanted to.
 
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