• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Hot beverages

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
PetShopBoy88 said:
Why does "hot beverages" in the word of wisdom only refer to coffee and non-herbal teas?​
Any answer I might give would be purely speculation. Joseph Smith and other early Church leaders specifically stated that "hot beverages" should be interpreted as to mean tea and coffee. He didn't say why. In other words, he didn't implicate caffeine, although many people (both within the Church and on the outside) assume that this is what he meant.
 

PetShopBoy88

Active Member
So in other words, you are to follow a law for no given reason? (Not trying to be combative, or anything, just asking.)
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
PetShopBoy88 said:
So in other words, you are to follow a law for no given reason? (Not trying to be combative, or anything, just asking.)

The bottom line reason for following this and any law is that it stems from the commandment to Love God. If we love God then we will do everything he has asked us to do.

I also believe you've changed your question: You started be asking "why" hot beverages meant tea/coffee and now you're asking if we follow a law for no reason. If you want a better reason than we do it because we love God, I encourge you to read the Word of Wisdom. I think you'll see there are some health benefits to following the law.
 

PetShopBoy88

Active Member
nutshell said:
The bottom line reason for following this and any law is that it stems from the commandment to Love God. If we love God then we will do everything he has asked us to do.
So do you think that's the only reason it referrs to Coffee and Tea? So you can show love?

I also believe you've changed your question: You started be asking "why" hot beverages meant tea/coffee and now you're asking if we follow a law for no reason.
In the light of new information, sometimes one's questions must change. ;)

If you want a better reason than we do it because we love God, I encourge you to read the Word of Wisdom.
I've read the word of wisdom. :)

I think you'll see there are some health benefits to following the law.
So is that why Coffee and Tea are forbidden? For health reasons?
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
PetShopBoy88 said:
So do you think that's the only reason it referrs to Coffee and Tea? So you can show love?

Loving God is at the root of every commandment, but it is not the only reason, IMO.


PetShopBoy88 said:
In the light of new information, sometimes one's questions must change. ;)

Agreed.

PetShopBoy88 said:
I've read the word of wisdom. :)

And what did you think (beyond coffee/tea issue)?

PetShopBoy88 said:
So is that why Coffee and Tea are forbidden? For health reasons?

Yes, I believe health reasons may be a part of it.
 

PetShopBoy88

Active Member
nutshell said:
And what did you think (beyond coffee/tea issue)?
I thought, "Why would God give this commandment?" Perhaps health reasons... And then I thought" Why only Coffee and Tea?" And then I posted this question. :D
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
PetShopBoy88 said:
I thought, "Why would God give this commandment?" Perhaps health reasons... And then I thought" Why only Coffee and Tea?" And then I posted this question. :D

Perhaps he'll do more -- but for now God just gave us that -- little obdience at first, then big obdience next.

That probably makes no sense, but I tried.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
PetShopBoy88 said:
So in other words, you are to follow a law for no given reason? (Not trying to be combative, or anything, just asking.)
Oh, it's definintely for health reasons. The prohibition against alcohol and tobacco came at the same time - back in 1838, long before medical science had made any statements on either of these substances. It has been shown in medical studies (the one I'm thinking of was at UCLA) that practicing Latter-day Saints have a considerably longer life-expectancy than the general population. I'd have to try to find the numbers for you. It runs in my mind the results of that particular study were published on www.adherents.com. but I could be wrong.
 

PetShopBoy88

Active Member
So what is harmful to health that only coffee and tea have? Why wasn't it caffeinated beverages? Or caffein? Does it have nothing to do with caffein> If not, what is it? Or is it just vague "health reasons"?
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
PetShopBoy88 said:
So what is harmful to health that only coffee and tea have? Why wasn't it caffeinated beverages? Or caffein? Does it have nothing to do with caffein> If not, what is it? Or is it just vague "health reasons"?

We don't know for certain why and caffein, IMO, is irrelevant although I know some LDS who will disagree (and when they do disagree with me I ask them the same questions you're asking now about caffeinated beverages or hot chocolate/cocoa for that matter).

You describe it as vague health reasons, but the harmful effects of coffee and some teas are well documented...effects, of course, Joseph Smith had no knowledge of at the time the Word of Wisdom was recorded.

Also, the health benefits seem fairly specific if you read the Word of Wisdom again.
 

PetShopBoy88

Active Member
nutshell said:
We don't know for certain why and caffein, IMO, is irrelevant although I know some LDS who will disagree (and when they do disagree with me I ask them the same questions you're asking now about caffeinated beverages or hot chocolate/cocoa for that matter).
Fair enough. Thanks for the answer.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
PetShopBoy88 said:
Fair enough. Thanks for the answer.
One other quick note: I'm not sure Joseph Smith even knew what caffeine was. When he received the revelation, the words given to him were "hot drinks." At that time, there probably weren't any cold drinks that contained caffeine. If he had prayed for guidance in interpreting the revelation, God would more than likely told him that he could go ahead and have his chicken noodle soup. Caffeine may very well have been the harmful ingredient that God was speaking of. Undoubtedly, it's not good for us. But no prophet since Joseph Smith has made a specific determination as to whether Coke, Mountain Dew, etc. are prohibited.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
And it's just as likely caffeine has nothing to do with it or that it is a portion of the problem with tea and coffee.

There are certainly enough other harmful ingredients in tea/coffee to justify not drinking them even if they were caffeine free.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
I think the key to understanding the Word of Wisdom can be found in two key phrases at the beginning of it.

One is "...adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints...". The key here as I understand it is that commandment was based upon the weakest of the community. Plenty of people are strong enough to drink without becoming alcoholics, but for the sake of the few, we all abstain. As Paul said, "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak." (Rom. 14: 21)

The second key phrase is, "In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days...". The point here is to emphasize that this was in preparation for these "designs" whereby people would make money off others' weakness. A likely thing considering the subject would be that people would identify the addictive elements and increase them, as has been done with caffeine in coffee products.

With these in mind, I'd propose that the focus here--in tea and coffee as well as the rest--is about the potential for addiction. Are there other addictive substances not included? Sure, but I think it points us in the right direction. As it says elsewhere in the D&C, "it is not meet that [the Lord] should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant".

You've asked a great question, I hope that answers some of it. Please continue asking if this raises any more questions or leaves anything unanswered.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
nutshell said:
And it's just as likely caffeine has nothing to do with it or that it is a portion of the problem with tea and coffee.

There are certainly enough other harmful ingredients in tea/coffee to justify not drinking them even if they were caffeine free.

I've heard it blamed on tannic acid, but then I suppose green tea should be okay, which it's not.
 

PetShopBoy88

Active Member
Deep Shadow said:
With these in mind, I'd propose that the focus here--in tea and coffee as well as the rest--is about the potential for addiction. Are there other addictive substances not included? Sure, but I think it points us in the right direction. As it says elsewhere in the D&C, "it is not meet that [the Lord] should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant".
That really helps explain it. Thanks.
 

groovyable

Member
So God warns you not to drink coffee and tea...

Stick to coca cola and Shark then :drunk:

Only messing, yet coffine is an addictive substance, so i can see why it benefits to stay away from it. Yet why then did Jehovah God create caffine buds, leafs etc...? And how much of a sin is it if you drank coca cola within the LDS Church?
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
groovyable said:
Yet why then did Jehovah God create caffine buds, leafs etc...?

In Section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants--the section that explains this health code--God explains that some things in the world, such as tobacco, have good "uses" that are separate from the bad "abuses." For example:

D&C 89 said:
7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

So if these things have good uses, then the real issue is not whether we should use them but how we should use them. It's a test of responsibility.
 

PHOTOTAKER

Well-Known Member
just like all things they have there good and bad uses according to medical professions, why do you thank that all things are bad for us, yet we need them to servive?

coffiee for example has some nutrition for the body, but the addiction, depression, head-eaks, and could couse heart attacts, out way any good that it can possibly do... all things in this earth has a use for good, but to use it for bad and evil and harmfull things is to abouse that use is a sin, evin in the olden-days (old testament) there was a set deit that was used, even Jesus said some deit things like not to drink strong wine (accahol)
 
Top