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Hostility towards Christianity

linwood

Well-Known Member
Mr_Spinkles said:
The only thing I ask in return is that I don't have to be quiet about my atheism. Freedom of speech/religious expression is a good thing. :)
It`s not always that easy.
I`ve been avoiding disclosing my atheism to a neighbor for 2 years.
I am not a closet atheist and never have been.
I keep my silence so my daughter can keep a friend.
I don`t think I can do this forever.

As far as why there is some anti-Christain sentiment in our country...I pretty much agree with No*s. Christianity is the top dog, so of course those in the minority will sometimes feel threatened by it (whether or not there is good reason to feel that way).
With all due respect I think the explaination No`s gave is a cop out.
Why would I care who was "top dog"?
The only serious competition Christianity has for control of my environment is secularism.
Secularism is top dog in this country and I`m a promoter.
I could use the same argument No*s gave for Christianity against Christianity`s disdain for secularism and submit pretty convincing evidence, and alot of it.

In all fairness, linwood, how many Christians claim to be close to following Jesus' example?
Thats a loaded question.
Jesus to a Christian was the perfect man.
No Christian with any respect for their own God would ever claim to even be close to Christs perfection.
They all claim to be trying.
I don`t see it in my immediate surroundings too much though.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
NetDoc said:
Sorry linwood, but I think your %10 estimate is way out of line. You are far too generous.
Well..I don`t know about that.
:)

BTW, did you ever notice that Jesus was only abusive towards religious bigots? Maybe we chould denounce them just as he would?
Don`t forget fig trees.
:)
In all fairness many do Net doc.
I just read a press release from an interfaith group (A large one) condemning the discrimination of homosexuals in the name of their religion.

For some reason these Christians don`t get the same time and opportunities those "other" Christians do.

Thats probably the medias fault but thats another rant entirely.
 

Circle_One

Well-Known Member
EEWRED said:
I have talked alot of atheists and agnostics, and pretty much all of them site past incidents in the name of christianity as a reason they hate christianity now.
My past incidents with Christian bigots (you guys know the ones--I'm burning for eternity because I'm a heathen, etc.) have not pushed me away from Christianity, as I was never close to it in the first place, however, their means of attempting to convert me (ie. condemning me to an eternity of fire, pain and damnation) have not brought me closer to conversion.
 

Quoth The Raven

Half Arsed Muse
I think considering a cross on a hill as havng religion 'pushed in your face' is going a bit far, but when they knock on your door and offer you literature and aren't happy when you say,'sorry, not interested' it goes a bit far. Then despite the fact you're not interested they come back every 2 weeks for several months, just to see if maybe you'll read their magazine after all.
It's just like the telemarketer who wont listen to you when you politely say,'Thank you for calling, but I'm very happy with my current phone service,' and goes on and on until you get rude and hang up in their ear.
I'm sure if there was a Muslim group that went door to door with Quaran in hand pestering people on their day off, people would have similar feelings. (Considering every ignorant bigot in the world thinks all the Muslims are plotting to blow things up, I think they've got enough to contend with through their religion anyway.)
Also, not so much an issue here(Australia) I think, but you guys have the Christian lobby groups who ARE trying to force their religion on everyone by having their beliefs made the law of the land.Being as the squeeky wheel gets the oil, they are the Christians you see in the papers and hear about in the news, and by default are what people think of when they hear the word 'Christian'.
 

Nick Soapdish

Secret Agent
Linwood,

When I first started posting to this site, it seemed our main point of disagreement was the nature of spacetime. Since then I have come to the opinion that we disagree on just about every issue there is. ;)

Having said that, I really enjoy our discussions. It is really valuable for me to get any insights as to where people who disagree strongly with me are coming from. I find that people really don't understand as much about those who are different from them as they think they do. And I am glad that you seem to tolerate me, as cross as my opinions are to what you believe.

linwood said:
Christians for the most part are so far from following Jesus`s example the hypocrisy is enough to make one wet themselves with laughter.
I am sorry that you feel this way towards Christianity.

I can tell you that the Church, as much as you seem to dislike it, has a positive influence on many people's lives. It is a source of much consolation for these people, and today's churches do a tremendous amount of charity and community service.

When people are stomped into the ground with the heels of tyranny or facing intolerable degrees of strife or suffering, turning to God is often the best path to coping and finding a source of solace.
 

robtex

Veteran Member
As far as hostility towards Christianty in Texas I have found two things

1) they are unrelentless in trying to save my soul and acept Jesus
2) They no so little about their religion it is beyond sad.

I want to point out that this doesn't happen on this site by the Christians and in fact the opposite are both true. But when I log out and go out my front door rest assured some clue'less christian who has yet to read the bible or look at chrisitan history will make an attempt to convert me.

relentless: This year if the law of averages holds up for me I will

* be asked 10-15 times by strangers to accept christ as my savior
* be asked 5-10 times by friends co workers or someone else I know to accept Jesus
* I will be asked twice a week or over 100 times this year which church I attend. It will be assumed I attend church ( i attend a UU church) and it will be assumed it is a christian church.
* I will be told that I am going to burn in hell by someone on the net reading atheism on my yahoo handle 10 15 times this year. I am up to three since Jan 1 this year.
*I will be told I am going to burn in hell twice in person
* once a month or 12 times this year some stranger will knock on my door and with a with to tell me about the miracles of Christ
* I will be given 2-5 cards with crosses on them this year
* I will be sent 25ish e-cards with Christian versus on them and inviting me to rejoince in Jesus with them.
* 10-20 people will tell me that they personally prayed for my soul in church to protect my non christian soul from damnation
* 1-2 times this year I will give a prepared speech on bowing in martial arts where i compare it to shaking hands because some christian feels uncomfortable bowing to a flag, picture of a deceased teacher or another person.

Knowledge: Of those I decide to talk to about Christanity after they try to "convert" me I will discover, if this year is like the past ones that only 10 % ofthem have actually read the Bible. Even less know the history of their religion including

* which holidays have pagen orgins
* which authors wrote which books and which have unknown authors
* accept date range of writing of the NT
* accepted date range for death of Jesus
* are able to name the 10 commandments (no i am not making this up either)
* who the founder of their branch of christianty was ( cathothics are excepttion to this they always seem to know)
* what makes their branch of christanity different than the rest of them or similar to them
* who the major prophets were of the OT


Outside of that if I ask them why they believe in God if they do not get angered at my even asking such a silly question than they will say abstarct things like

*its complicated
* I dont' know how to explain it
* its my faith
* I talk to God (not making this up either)
* the bible (which of course few have read)
* their preacher is spirtual
* they are sprirtual
* they were raised that way.

Add those three sections up and you get one battered heathen who gets to meet christian zealots daily who are ignornant of their religion, unable to articulate why they accept Christianity but want me to accept Jesus.

again one more footnote.....the christians on this site by and large are very educated in christanity and not hellbent on conversions and in no way does this email personify my interpretation of RF christians.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
linwood said:
It`s not always that easy.
I`ve been avoiding disclosing my atheism to a neighbor for 2 years.
I am not a closet atheist and never have been.
I keep my silence so my daughter can keep a friend.
I don`t think I can do this forever.

With all due respect I think the explaination No`s gave is a cop out.
Why would I care who was "top dog"?
The only serious competition Christianity has for control of my environment is secularism.
Secularism is top dog in this country and I`m a promoter.
I could use the same argument No*s gave for Christianity against Christianity`s disdain for secularism and submit pretty convincing evidence, and alot of it.

If my response is a cop out Linwood, then I can just as easily point out some things. First, I can point out that you contradict yourself within your post. You say you've been keeping your atheism secret so your daughter can maintain a friend, and in the same post deny that Christianity has the status I described. If Christianity weren't as dominant as I said, then you would have no problem here, but you evidently do.

The second thing is that people apparently, as pointed out in this thread, don't take as much offense to the same behavior in other groups. Why is that? If it was the behavior, then the same disdain would fall on everyone with the same behavior, but the point of this thread makes it clear that it doesn't.

Lastly, I would point out that secularism only reigns supreme in some parts of the country. In others, while the law prescribes it, it is pretty much unobserved. If secularism were truly the biggest boy on the block, then it wouldn't matter what religion or gender a political candidate was. It does, however, matter. I couldn't see an atheist or wiccan presidential candidate getting elected.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
No*s said:
Isn't that what you would expect? It's the dominant religion in the West, and well, people feel threatened by the big dog, and the big dog also tends to make its presence known. Christianity is in that position, and it is that which is most proactive in persuading people. As such, people get the most disgruntled with it.

That's pretty much to be expected.
Good response.
 

Halcyon

Lord of the Badgers
Living in england i don't get that many people come up to me on the street, i get some jehovah's witnesses come to the door about every three months, there not too bad cause you can just say 'not interested, thanks' and they just leave.
Rarely, i run into some mormons that have been specially flown over from the states to chat to me (it seems anyway), but i don't mind that cause they're all very nice people, and i find them interesting.

I guess if i was bothered by people constantly though i might start to resent them.
 

Scorn

Active Member
atofel said:
If I tell an acquantance that I hope they will find their way to Jesus, it is likely that I have offended them.
Plain and simple. This is a judgment. Right or wrong, that's how it's perceived. How would a Christian respond if one suggested "I hope you find your way away from Jesus."
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Nothing is ever plain and fewer things are simple.

The response is their PRIDE talking and has nothing to do with one person judging another. They might use judgmental as a smokescreen, but probably they don't understand what that means.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
No*s said:
You say you've been keeping your atheism secret so your daughter can maintain a friend, and in the same post deny that Christianity has the status I described.
You judge a situation you`re ignorant of.
I don`t care about social acceptance, I care about how I`m raising my kid.
Not to mention that not everything is about ME.
In fact the situation is another bit of ignorance by Christianity that I have to deal with.
The neighbor is a Southern Baptist preacher who knows less about the Bible he thumps 5 times a week than I do.
My daughter and his son have been playmates since my daughter was born.
he is 5 and she is 4.
He would stop all contact between our families if he knew of my belief.
The contact between our familys is considerable and goes well beyond my daughters friendship.
If I were to tell this ignorant man of my beliefs I would have to explain to my daughter that her friends God thinks we`re evil, bad, and , working for Satan.
She would ask why she wasn`t allowed to play with him anymore.
That will breed tolerance at an early age won`t it No*s.
Telling a four year old that her best friend thinks her father is destined to burn in hell is not a good way to teach your kids about religion.

Christianity in so many ways is the cause of it`s own derision.


The second thing is that people apparently, as pointed out in this thread, don't take as much offense to the same behavior in other groups. Why is that? If it was the behavior, then the same disdain would fall on everyone with the same behavior, but the point of this thread makes it clear that it doesn't.
I`m sorry, I missed those posts.
I have never seen the same behaviour in any other religious group.
Never.
Please point out another religion that has the same traits of "Pushing itself" on those who don`t want it.
Just one please.

Lastly, I would point out that secularism only reigns supreme in some parts of the country. In others, while the law prescribes it, it is pretty much unobserved. If secularism were truly the biggest boy on the block, then it wouldn't matter what religion or gender a political candidate was. It does, however, matter. I couldn't see an atheist or wiccan presidential candidate getting elected.
Then apparently I`m in one of those parts.
I`ll stay here if thats the case, I`ve been thinking about moving to the NW though.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
atofel said:
Linwood,

When I first started posting to this site, it seemed our main point of disagreement was the nature of spacetime. Since then I have come to the opinion that we disagree on just about every issue there is. ;)
At least we were able to meet some consensus on spacetime.
:)

Having said that, I really enjoy our discussions. It is really valuable for me to get any insights as to where people who disagree strongly with me are coming from. I find that people really don't understand as much about those who are different from them as they think they do. And I am glad that you seem to tolerate me, as cross as my opinions are to what you believe.
I don`t tolerate you Andy.
I`m happy to know you, you and the dozen or more other Christians who regularly post to these forums who DO NOT fit the categories I`ve listed above.
I did not say I had hostility towards Christian, I do towards Christianity itself.
The Christians themselves each get their own chance to show me how they are as I should them.

I am sorry that you feel this way towards Christianity.

I can tell you that the Church, as much as you seem to dislike it, has a positive influence on many people's lives. It is a source of much consolation for these people, and today's churches do a tremendous amount of charity and community service.
I know that and have no problem with that.
I don`t want it to have an influence on my life, and I have to work at that lately.
Keeping it`s influence out of my life is becoming difficult.

When people are stomped into the ground with the heels of tyranny or facing intolerable degrees of strife or suffering, turning to God is often the best path to coping and finding a source of solace.
When that tyrant or suffering is caused by Christianity those people turn elsewhere.
 

Scorn

Active Member
NetDoc said:
Nothing is ever plain and fewer things are simple.

The response is their PRIDE talking and has nothing to do with one person judging another. They might use judgmental as a smokescreen, but probably they don't understand what that means.
Come on, you can't dress this up into something it's not. So pride is a bad thing? As is my/our ignorance of what judgemental means?

How is this not judgemental in itself?

If you are to tell me that you hope I find my way to Jesus then you are suggesting that the path I am on is less the the path of Jesus. That is a judgement. That's how it's perceived. You may not see it that way but I'm certain that the guy trying to hard sell me a time share in Mexico thinks he's just giving me a great opportunity as well.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
linwood said:
You judge a situation you`re ignorant of.
I don`t care about social acceptance, I care about how I`m raising my kid.
Not to mention that not everything is about ME.
In fact the situation is another bit of ignorance by Christianity that I have to deal with.
The neighbor is a Southern Baptist preacher who knows less about the Bible he thumps 5 times a week than I do.
My daughter and his son have been playmates since my daughter was born.
he is 5 and she is 4.
He would stop all contact between our families if he knew of my belief.
The contact between our familys is considerable and goes well beyond my daughters friendship.
If I were to tell this ignorant man of my beliefs I would have to explain to my daughter that her friends God thinks we`re evil, bad, and , working for Satan.
She would ask why she wasn`t allowed to play with him anymore.
That will breed tolerance at an early age won`t it No*s.
Telling a four year old that her best friend thinks her father is destined to burn in hell is not a good way to teach your kids about religion.

I didn't judge the situation. I judged your statement, which in its turn testifies to what I described, and this isn't a part of it. The dominant philosophy/religion in a land is the one most resented by minority groups, because it seeks to preserve itself and uses its position of dominance. What you are describing is exactly what belief systems tend to do. Do I like it? No, but it's the way people in general behave.

linwood said:
Christianity in so many ways is the cause of it`s own derision.

And every philosophy will find itself in that exact situation if it becomes dominant. It will remain for a time, and then, it will be abandoned with disgust later. If society adopted yours, it would maintian itself, and then would be "the cause of its own derision."

linwood said:
I`m sorry, I missed those posts.
I have never seen the same behaviour in any other religious group.
Never.
Please point out another religion that has the same traits of "Pushing itself" on those who don`t want it.
Just one please.

That was specified and explained in the very first post. It even contained an example: Islam. Islam is just as missionary as Christianity, but it's not dominant here. The thread-starter specified all of this, and it certainly qualifies as one.

For my part, I add atheism and agnosticism. It's quite a missionary philosophy that seems to have some impetus toward persuading people to believe in it. I've had the experience of people trying to persuade me to unconvert many times. Usually with more than a little disgust in their voice. I find it very pushy.

I can add ancient paganism's intolerance of sects and persecution of people within their borders (Socrates, Druids, Christians, etc.). They tended to force conformity on anyone they had power over.

In recent days, we have Scientology, the UFO sects, and any number of others.

I think that is a sufficient list. All of these push their beliefs on others, and do so regularly when they can. Christians, though, are simply the dominant group.

linwood said:
Then apparently I`m in one of those parts.
I`ll stay here if thats the case, I`ve been thinking about moving to the NW though.

That is probably the case.

For the record, I don't condone the actions you're dealing with.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Hi Linwood;

PART QUOTE[The neighbor is a Southern Baptist preacher who knows less about the Bible he thumps 5 times a week than I do.
My daughter and his son have been playmates since my daughter was born.
he is 5 and she is 4.
He would stop all contact between our families if he knew of my belief.
The contact between our familys is considerable and goes well beyond my daughters friendship.
If I were to tell this ignorant man of my beliefs I would have to explain to my daughter that her friends God thinks we`re evil, bad, and , working for Satan.
She would ask why she wasn`t allowed to play with him anymore.
That will breed tolerance at an early age won`t it No*s.
Telling a four year old that her best friend thinks her father is destined to burn in hell is not a good way to teach your kids about religion.]

I agree with every single motive of yours that you have quoted above; what is more, you have done an incredibly moral deed :-You have denied expressing your own beliefs in public for fear of the effect on your daughter.
Now that is what I call admirable parenting!-Looks like fruballs.................
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Come on, you can't dress this up into something it's not. So pride is a bad thing? As is my/our ignorance of what judgemental means?
Sure it is... If you are not a Swede and I say that you are not a Swede will you be offended? Would you be offended if I said "I wish you were a Swede like me"? Probably not. I am not judging you to a Swedish hell.

So how is it when I tell a non-Christian, I wish they were a Christian that I am being judgmental? I am not. Their negative response is merely due to pride. As if I said they were inferior or something.
 

Scorn

Active Member
NetDoc said:
Sure it is... If you are not a Swede and I say that you are not a Swede will you be offended? Would you be offended if I said "I wish you were a Swede like me"? Probably not. I am not judging you to a Swedish hell.

So how is it when I tell a non-Christian, I wish they were a Christian that I am being judgmental? I am not. Their negative response is merely due to pride. As if I said they were inferior or something.
Then I have to ask. What might your motive be if you said to me that you wished I was a Swede? Or if you said you wished I was a Christian? What meaning am I to derive from that statement. And believe me NetDoc, I've learned not to take offence to the comment, so my remarks should not be taken as such.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Well, lets make it more personal...

I would wish everyone were a Floridian. The summers are hot and the winters are not. What would be my motivation? I LOVE FLORIDA! I do not judge the people living up North. They have chosen their own frozen hell. I would love for them to be able to live as I do, in a wonderfully warm climate. Nothing nefarious, and nothing judgmental at all.

It's the same with Christianity. I would that all would be able to experience the love and forgiveness that I have in Jesus. But they enjoy their hell too much.
 
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