horrors of religion

[richardlowellt]

Although an extreme case this certainly points to the danger that religion plays when a belief is taken to the extreme. A father prayed instead of taking his 11 year old to the hospital because he couldn't seek medical help without disobeying God. "I can't do that because biblically, I cannot find that is the way people are healed. If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God. God promises in the bible to heal, for that to take place in our lives we have to live on God's instructions. His daughter had diabetes and at the time could not walk, talk, eat , or speak. She died on the floor as people surrounded her and prayed. If this is not an example of how religion can be a poison, please tell me why.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Religion has also inspired alot of good in people. You don't, and shouldn't need religion to be a better person, but for many it does help.

 

[Quagmire]

***Mod Post***

This Thread has been moved to Religious Debates.




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[Riverwolf]

Although an extreme case this certainly points to the danger that religion plays when a belief is taken to the extreme. A father prayed instead of taking his 11 year old to the hospital because he couldn't seek medical help without disobeying God. "I can't do that because biblically, I cannot find that is the way people are healed. If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God. God promises in the bible to heal, for that to take place in our lives we have to live on God's instructions. His daughter had diabetes and at the time could not walk, talk, eat , or speak. She died on the floor as people surrounded her and prayed. If this is not an example of how religion can be a poison, please tell me why.

That's not religion. That's the father being an idiot.

 

[dogsgod]

No, that's religion being religion.

It doesn't even come as a surprise anymore.

 

[Willamena]

No, that's religion being religion...

...being a father being an idiot?

That's a lot of being.

 

[dogsgod]

We be being.

 

[Willamena]

Although an extreme case this certainly points to the danger that religion plays when a belief is taken to the extreme. A father prayed instead of taking his 11 year old to the hospital because he couldn't seek medical help without disobeying God. "I can't do that because biblically, I cannot find that is the way people are healed. If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God. God promises in the bible to heal, for that to take place in our lives we have to live on God's instructions. His daughter had diabetes and at the time could not walk, talk, eat , or speak. She died on the floor as people surrounded her and prayed. If this is not an example of how religion can be a poison, please tell me why.

I would pray rather than take myself to a hospital, and I'm atheist. Doctors are idiots; "House, M.D.'" exemplifies that (yes, I know it's fiction). We place FAR too much faith in the medical industry; but apart from that, the idea that one shouldn't "put the doctor before God" is as bad as putting oneself before God. If "God" isn't good enough to work through the doctor, then "God" isn't good enough to work through inaction.

I suspect this thread is a strawman.

 

[Riverwolf]

No, that's religion being religion.

It doesn't even come as a surprise anymore.

Show me how this is religion's fault and not the fault of the father, who should have understood that God provided the doctors for this very reason in the first place! (According to this kind of theism.)

 

[Poisonshady313]

In Judaism, the law exists so that we should LIVE by it... not die by it. That is why, in the interest of saving a life (and only for that reason), the law goes out the window (with the exception of three, for which one should be willing to become a martyr ... being forced to murder someone else, being forced to commit adultery, and being forced to commit idolatry.).

For example, using the phone is forbidden on the Sabbath. But if there is a medical emergency, one is obligated to call an ambulance.

Another example. Yom Kippur is a holy day on which one is obligated to fast. Diabetics, or those for whom not eating would present an immediate life threatening situation, are obligated to eat on a fast day.

People who believe in God should trust that God gives people their skills for their profession... that God guides the hand of the surgeon, etc...

 

[dogsgod]

Show me how this is religion's fault and not the fault of the father, who should have understood that God provided the doctors for this very reason in the first place! (According to this kind of theism.)

Theism can be interpreted many ways, it's subjective.

 

[Riverwolf]

Theism can be interpreted many ways, it's subjective.

And that's is the reason why religion is not inherently at fault here.

 

[richardlowellt]

I would pray rather than take myself to a hospital, and I'm atheist. Doctors are idiots; "House, M.D.'" exemplifies that (yes, I know it's fiction). We place FAR too much faith in the medical industry; but apart from that, the idea that one shouldn't "put the doctor before God" is as bad as putting oneself before God. If "God" isn't good enough to work through the doctor, then "God" isn't good enough to work through inaction.

I suspect this thread is a strawman.

"Doctors are idiots" What a statement, someone that devotes 12 years, after high school, studying subjects of unbelievable complexity, in a highly competitive environment, their primary goal is to save lives and ease suffering, and you say they are idiots, yes you are right, you are watching and taking way to serious your television programs. How about this---sever an artery while working around the house, what would you do, pray or get to the emergency room as quick as possible?

 

[richardlowellt]

Show me how this is religion's fault and not the fault of the father, who should have understood that God provided the doctors for this very reason in the first place! (According to this kind of theism.)

You did read what I wrote about the fathers response in court. "I didn't take her to the hospital because biblically, I cannot find that is the way people are healed." In seeking help, he felt he would be disobeying God. The bible makes no statements about God providing doctors, or that somehow God controls the hands of these doctors. He goes on the say "God promises in the bible to heal" This is a religious belief that killed the poor 11 year old. If you want to say the father is an idiot, go right ahead, I prefer to say that religion has blinded this man to understand the realities of life. His belief in God and what the bible have to say is so extreme he literally murdered his own daughter. No he is not an idiot, religion has made this man mentally ill.

 

[Riverwolf]

You did read what I wrote about the fathers response in court. "I didn't take her to the hospital because biblically, I cannot find that is the way people are healed." In seeking help, he felt he would be disobeying God. The bible makes no statements about God providing doctors, or that somehow God controls the hands of these doctors. He goes on the say "God promises in the bible to heal" This is a religious belief that killed the poor 11 year old. If you want to say the father is an idiot, go right ahead, I prefer to say that religion has blinded this man to understand the realities of life. His belief in God and what the bible have to say is so extreme he literally murdered his own daughter. No he is not an idiot, religion has made this man mentally ill.

Then why has this same religion not stopped the majority of believers from taking their sick children to the hospital?

I would like to see the verse where "God promises in the Bible to heal," because, especially after reading what poisonshady wrote, I propose to you that this father has misread the context.

 

[Riverwolf]

"Doctors are idiots" What a statement, someone that devotes 12 years, after high school, studying subjects of unbelievable complexity, in a highly competitive environment, their primary goal is to save lives and ease suffering, and you say they are idiots, yes you are right, you are watching and taking way to serious your television programs. How about this---sever an artery while working around the house, what would you do, pray or get to the emergency room as quick as possible?

I do agree with you here, though.

I do perform a facepalm at people who are overly dependent on medicines and are under the impression that medicine will solve all their problems. But doctors themselves do what they do because they want to help, even if they suck at it. And I don't mean suck at the scientific aspect of it, but at the interaction with their patients part of it.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I am also reminded of the story of the man in a flood... a truck comes along to take him to safety, and he refuses saying "I have faith that God won't let harm come to me. He will save me from peril."

The water rises.. this time a boat comes to take him to safety, and he refuses saying "I have faith that God won't let harm come to me. He will save me from peril."

The water rises some more... a helicopter comes to take him to safety, and still he refuses saying "I have faith that God won't let harm come to me. He will save me from peril."

The man dies... and he's very upset. He asks God "Lord... why would you allow me to die in that flood, after I put my complete faith in you?"

And God responds "I sent you a truck, a boat, and a helicopter. What more could you have wanted?"

 

[Riverwolf]

I am also reminded of the story of the man in a flood... a truck comes along to take him to safety, and he refuses saying "I have faith that God won't let harm come to me. He will save me from peril."

The water rises.. this time a boat comes to take him to safety, and he refuses saying "I have faith that God won't let harm come to me. He will save me from peril."

The water rises some more... a helicopter comes to take him to safety, and still he refuses saying "I have faith that God won't let harm come to me. He will save me from peril."

The man dies... and he's very upset. He asks God "Lord... why would you allow me to die in that flood, after I put my complete faith in you?"

And God responds "I sent you a truck, a boat, and a helicopter. What more could you have wanted?"

Exactly.

This guy just wanted a miracle, not realizing that there was no need for one.

 

[richardlowellt]

Then why has this same religion not stopped the majority of believers from taking their sick children to the hospital?

I would like to see the verse where "God promises in the Bible to heal," because, especially after reading what poisonshady wrote, I propose to you that this father has misread the context.

Do you expect all people to act in exactly the same manner when given the same set of circumstances? You would be foolish to believe that.

That he misread the text, or read into it what he wanted, it is still RELIGION and his belief that caused this tragedy.

There are plenty of situations like this if one cares to do some research. Not long ago a couple consented to have their baby aborted because it had reptilian features to it, and being creationists saw, in their own words, "an abomination of evolution growing inside her"

 

[Riverwolf]

Do you expect all people to act in exactly the same manner when given the same set of circumstances? You would be foolish to believe that.

I know and I don't. (I'm stupid for different reasons.) Please show me where I said I did or implied that I did.

That he misread the text, or read into it what he wanted, it is still RELIGION and his belief that caused this tragedy.

There are plenty of situations like this if one cares to do some research. Not long ago a couple consented to have their baby aborted because it had reptilian features to it, and being creationists saw, in their own words, "an abomination of evolution growing inside her"

Again, more fools. I still fail to see how this is religion's doing and not the people misusing it.

This isn't religion's doing; this is idealistic and naive children trying to be parents. (I don't care if they're in adult bodies; they're still children.)

I tell you that if this was religion's doing, these kinds of people would be the majority of believers and not a small minority.