1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Hoping for some thoughts from mormons

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by curiouslyminty, Jan 8, 2006.

  1. curiouslyminty

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    63
    Ratings:
    +3
    Actually Testimony from the initial trial (if im reading correctly because its sort of hard to read) is that he disavowed what he was doing and promised to start working for his money.

    But this is after he was supposed to have had the vision.

    I would like to add that saying 'what matters' is the good things that were done, or mistakes by the government, is irrelevent. The government has never claimed to be a divine revelation. Good people imo can go to hell. Its about the truth and simply the truth.

    Accusations are a dime a dozen? When first hand accounts are what you are basing a belief on I believe it of the upmost importance to take any eyewitnesses account as seriously.

    And saying noone was accused of the murder.. was he not killed in a mob? thats a little tough to pinpoint.
     
  2. curiouslyminty

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    63
    Ratings:
    +3
    Thanks for the links again!
    http://restorationbookstore.org
    especially has some interesting articles that I hadn't seen yet.

    Joseph Smith understands at least what its like :) I dunno if anything has changed since then... but I relate.
     
  3. benjosh

    benjosh Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    133
    Ratings:
    +18
    I think what you are missing in my reply is that truth must be a very relative thing to you.

    What is more important. . . . alleged "money digging" or burning peoples homes down and taking their land away while ridiculing them because they might make the slaves unruly or the Indians think they have some value?

    My point is that when it comes to some things, folks strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

    So, let's get back to square one.
    You read the book of Mormon and you liked the thought that God might still reveal his will. Your initial response to the book was somewhat positive but you read some commentaries that wised you up. I'm telling you there is a mountain of information against the book and the prophet because most people do not seek revelation , in fact they hate it.
    Jesus had revelation and it wasn't that well received by religious people.
    The idea that God would speak in our modern era blows the mind of people who have to have their religion rationalized and codified.
    So, you can find all the "evidence" you want on both sides, but in the end it all boils down to do you know the Father through his Son, Jesus Christ?
    Knowing Jesus is a revelation not a religion.

    If you do know Jesus, then how do you get to know him better? And, how do you do his will?
    If the Book of Mormon spoke to your spirit that's good.
    It can also greatly expand your intellect as well, but you have to settle down and see where it fits with the plans of God which began in the testimonies o fthe Old Testament, then the New Testament.
    Much of what is on this site is words about, words about, words about God.
    The word of God is closer to our hearts and mind than that.


    BenJosh
     
  4. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    6,260
    Ratings:
    +639
    You still have not responded to the fact that I personally had an ancestor (who was not Emma Smith) who was married to Joseph Smith. Her sister was married to him also. I will agree with you that the marriages to Joseph Smith were not the same as those to Brigham Young (as far as I know Brigham's wives were not already married when he married them), but he was married to more than one woman. Even if she lied, why on earth would she do so in a personal journal?
     
  5. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    6,260
    Ratings:
    +639
    Here is a post I made in another thread:

    Joseph Smith and his father, in 1825 (age 20), worked for a man who believed that he had located the site of a Spanish mine in New York. After a few weeks Joseph Smith convinced them to abandon the project and returned home.

    This was at the same time that Joseph Smith was having the visions regarding the Book of Mormon and the man who had hired Joseph learned of his "gift." Joseph Smith had what he believed was a seer stone and people asked him to help them find lost property using the stone. The man who had hired them earlier asked Joseph Smith to assist them with locating the Spanish mine using the stone.

    One mistake that many people make when looking at history is that they judge people by the standards that we have today. People were looking for treasures back then - look at the Gold Rush. There is an interesting chapter on this in Joseph Smith's new biography by Richard Bushman.

    Here are a couple quotes:

    "Buried treasure was tied into a great stock of magical practices extending back many centuries. Eighteenth-century rationalism had failed to stamp out belief in pre-natural powers aiding and opposing human enterprise. Enlightened newspaper editors and ministers scoffed at the superstitions of common people but were unalbe to erase them. Ordinary people apparantly had no difficulty blending Christianity with magic. Willard Chase, the most vigorous of the Manchester treasure-seekers,was a Methodist class leader at the time he knew the Smiths, and in his obituary was described as a minister. At the time he employed Joseph to use his stone to find Spanish bullion, Josiah Stowell was an upright Presbyterian and an honored man in his community. The so-called credulity of the money-diggers can be read as evidence of their general faith in invisible forces. Christian belief in angels and devils blended with belief in guardian spirits and magical powers."


    If you want to read more, get the book. :D

    Joseph Smith himself admitted that he had problems with seeking treasure, which is why he wasn't allowed to take the Golden plates the first time he saw them. It took him four years to overcome this greed and finally receive the plates.

    Instead of critisizing an imperfect man for his imperfections, we should learn from him. The story of Joseph Smith and the treasure seeking is a great analogy for where we should place our hearts - not on the treasures of this world, but on the treasures of God.
     
  6. benjosh

    benjosh Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    133
    Ratings:
    +18
    Jonny have you read the articles by Richard and Pamela Price that I referenced to curiously?



    Ben Josh
     
  7. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    6,260
    Ratings:
    +639
    You mean those books. :D

    I don't have time to read through those entire books right now. Could you point me out to the chapter that references Patty Sessions not being married to Joseph Smith or that covers a similar topic?
     
  8. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    6,260
    Ratings:
    +639
    I'm glad you don't think there is anything sinister behind the Mormon church. I just thought that you might be interested in seeing what the church teaches and focuses on. The Tender Mercies talk is one of my favorites.

    The purpose of the Book of Mormon is stated on the title page: "...which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord harth done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever-and to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations."

    I don't think that the Book of Mormon was prepared to fracture the church further - that was done before the Book of Mormon ever came around - I believe that the book, along with being a witness of Jesus Christ, is a witness that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God. It is something tangible that can be held, read, and studied. If you believe that the Book of Mormon is true, you have to believe the divine story behind it.

    My personal opinion is that the fractured churches is an indication that the Bible wasn't enough to unify everyone together. Too many questions were left unanswered and instead of depending on the knowledge of God, people depended on the knowledge of man. Man's knowledge is imperfect. Joseph Smith sought knowledge from God and the result was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
     
  9. nutshell

    nutshell Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    7,140
    Ratings:
    +672
    The best way to know of the truthfullness of the Book of Mormon is to get on your knees and ask God if it is true. Research and these discussions will not reveal the truth. When Jesus asked his apostles "Whom say ye that I am," Peter answered, "You are the Christ." Jesus then stated it was not flesh, but the Spirit of the Father that revealed this to Peter. All revelation takes place this way -- it does not come from empirical evidence. I encourage you to continue reading the Book of Mormon and then approaching God in sincere prayer. He will answer you.
     
  10. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    29,695
    Ratings:
    +5,556
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    Here's a very good rule of thumb:

    We have an official canon comprised of four volumes of scripture:

    The Holy Bible (KJV)
    The Book of Mormon
    The Doctrine and Covenants
    The Pearl of Great Price

    If you can find a teaching in one of these four volumes of scripture, it's doctrine. Period. We are taught that we are to measure everything that we hear taught against what is said in these four books, which is why we refer to them as "The Standard Works." Our leaders frequently speak on topics found in one or more of these books. They clarify these doctrines and offer insights into how we can understand them and incorporate them into our daily lives. We believe that they are inspired to do so.

    The Doctrine and Covenants is the only one of the four volumes that is occasionally -- although infrequently, even so -- added to. It contains revelations given by God to our Prophets. Almost all of the writings in the D&C are revelations Joseph Smith, Jr. received when restoring the Church. A mere hanful were received by other of our Prophets, including Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith (not the same person as Joseph Smith, Jr.), Wilford Woodruff and Spencer W. Kimball. Very little is added today simply because most of the "new" doctrines were "restored" by Joseph Smith. However, if President Gordon B. Hinckley, the Prophet who presides over the Church today, were to receive a new revelation from God, He would present it to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and to the other General Authorities of the Church. They would pray together for guidance and for confirmation through the Holy Ghost that this new revelation was, in fact, from God. This doctrine would then be presented to the general membership of the Church. They would vote to sustain the Prophet and the leadership of the Church in making the doctrine official. It would more than likely be added to the next edition of the Doctrine and Covenants, which is what happened when the revelation was given that all worthy men, regardless of color, should be eligible -- based on their worthiness -- to receive the priesthood of God.

    The President of the Church is the only individual authorized to receive revelation on behalf of the Church as a whole. No individual Apostle may do so. In fact, the only time that all twelve of them together are authorized to receive revelation on behalf of the whole Church is upon the death of the Prophet, when the keys of authority are transferred to them as a body.

    Can the President of the Church state his own opinions on things of a spiritual nature without those things automatically becoming official doctrine? Of course. They can and they do. President Ezra Taft Benson was President of the Church in the early 1980's. He was very, very politically conservative, having served in Dwight D. Eisenhower's Cabinet. All members of the Church knew that he held some very strong opinions on political issues and didn't think much of the Democratic Party. He rubbed some Democrats in the Church the wrong way. But it didn't really matter in the end, because his opinions were his opinions and nothing more. They weren't doctrine when he led the Church and have not been doctrine since then. Most of his more politically charged statements were actually made when he was an Apostles, incidentally. By the time he was the President of the Church, if he hadn't mellowed some, he was at least less outspoken.

    Most of our leaders today are pretty careful about expressing their opinions when then can't back them up with writings from the Standard Works. I think they probably learned a lot from Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Brigham was a prolific writer and President of the Church for nearly 30 years. Obviously, he had his fair share of things to say during that time. I suspect that if either one of them had realized that a hundred and fifty years in the future, their remarks would have been taken out of context as they so often are today, they might have been a little bit more careful in expressing their personal opinions. I can't imagine for a minute that a person who was genuinely wanting to learn about Catholic doctrine would take the time to delve into every remark every Pope has said over the past 2000 years. If they were to do that, I can assure you they'd have second thoughts about Catholic Doctrine. I don't suppose that a serious study of Lutheranism would require an individual to analyze everthing Martin Luther ever said. I don't know if you've read much of what Luther had to say, but he had a few pretty off-the-wall opinions himself. What about the words of the ancient prophets like Moses and Abraham? Well, what was "official" came to be recorded and is now a part of the Old Testament. If you think they never said anything they wouldn't want to have people read and judge them on today, you can think again!

    Joseph Smith once said that "a prophet is only a prophet when he is acting as such." When he speaks on behalf of God, we believe him to be inspired. When he is speaking his own mind -- regardless of the topic -- and when his words cannot be backed up by scripture, we can assume that he is simply a man who has an opinion. The problem with anti-Mormon websites is that they don't seem to want to play by the rules we have established to define our own body of beliefs. It's very frustrating for us to have people tell us what we believe and then quote Joseph Smith as evidence that they understand our doctrines better than we do. The word "doctrine" means nothing more than "teaching." We teach our doctrines. A discussion of our doctrines is found on our Church's official website. People who believe that they can trust us to tell them the truth about what we believe can learn a lot about the Church by visiting our official website (www.mormon.org) or by reading material published by the Church.

    I hope it hasn't appeared that I'm accusing you of anything. At this point, you certainly haven't come across as beligerent or condemning. I'm just attempting to give you some guidelines for future use.

    I talk too much. Sorry.

    Kathryn
     
  11. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8,762
    Ratings:
    +604
    How often do you think it gets "changed?" :eek:
     
  12. benjosh

    benjosh Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    133
    Ratings:
    +18
    Jonny you assume that Joseph Smith had more wives than Emma, when the only history that states that is the one written in Utah. Unless your ancestor was Emma Smith she was not married to Joseph.

    I am including a link to a page that clearly shows where Joseph stood on the issue of polygamy. You may branch out to other pages on the site if you want more details.

    http://restorationbookstore.org/articles/nopoligamy/jsfp-vol1/chp11.htm
    Once you get there you may navigate from chapter to chapter using the arrows at the bottom of the page.

    In your first presidency's attempt to present Mormonism as Christian, realize that no one is going to buy it as long as you hold on to polygamy as God- sanctioned.

    Sorry, to be so blunt.

    Your friend, BenJOsh
     
  13. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    2,780
    Ratings:
    +200
    I like that, but have been taught the opposite, in a way. That we can take the promises of the Bible and because the Bible says it, then we can believe it, even though our emotions get in the way. Like, when it says Jesus paid for our sins, and then the Devil comes and says, did he really? Is he really God's son? Yea, hath God said? And we doubt. We doubt if the Bible is true, if Jesus paid for our sins, if God was satisfied with the payment, etc. But then we look to the word, and it says God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. And we say, Oh, yeah, there it is in black and white. (and red, lol), Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so. So, I do not base my salvation on a feeling or my goodness, but on the promises of God in the Bible. I guess thats why I measure anything strictly by what the Bible says, so if something new comes along and contradicts the Bible, I have to examine it a bit. Probably a bit off-topic, but I was just reading, so, I typed. God bless you all.

    Mike
     
  14. nutshell

    nutshell Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    7,140
    Ratings:
    +672
    Thanks for your post, Mike. Will you share with us how you came to know the promises of God in the Bible were true?
     
  15. benjosh

    benjosh Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    133
    Ratings:
    +18

    Mike,
    I do not think you realize what you are saying about yourself in this post. And, I do not mean this as a put down. I mean it as an uplift.

    Your salvation does depend on your goodness. IN the Bible we read,

    1 Peter 1:15
    15. But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
    16. Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

    If you have a Christian religion that says your actions have nothing to do with your salvation you have been sucked in by a cult that says it worships Jesus but doesn't.

    If you do not have goodness (on your path towards holiness) you are lost. THe BIble is clear on this point.

    1 John 4:2
    2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    Jesus' coming in the flesh is more than a mental grasping of the historical fact of Jesus' virgin birth. The Christ anointing must come in your own flesh.
    Your confession is that many times you don't feel good. You have posted and removed yourself because you didn't feel good. Don't you know that a relationship with Jesus CHrist makes you feel good? In fact, did you know that if you continue in a path of righteousness, you can go all the way to feeling holy? And, in that you will find that when Peter says, be ye holy it is something you may find in cooperation with God's Holy Spirit.
    You cast aside a great helper because you think of emotions as something getting in the way.

    Mark 12:30
    30. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

    Do you have an emotionless mind?
    You have come on this site as one with the mind of a warrior. You were armed with the Bible and you were here to set Mormons straight. You have modified your approach a lot, and that is greatly appreciated. I think we are getting to know you now.
    Your warrior persona has emotion. (and in this you are correct when you say our emotions can get in our way).
    This warrior persona is an enemy to your relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
    You use the Bible as a sword not as healing ointment. If Mormons are in such a terrible situation, bring out some healing balm.
    You, like many prominent Christian teachers have brandished your swords and cut Joseph Smith's memory in shreds.
    Did you know that there is a scripture that points to this happening?

    Psalms 50:16
    16. ¶ But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth?

    17. Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.
    18. When thou sawest a thief, then thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers.
    19. Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit.
    20. Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother's son.
    21. These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.
    22. Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver.
    23. Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God.

    This is the word of God to you this day MIke.


    Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God.

    This is a Bible promise you may claim if you will do it.

    If you do , your salvation will rest in Jesus Christ and you will understand the Bible in it's truest sense.

    Praying you will take this in the spirit of love in which it is given, BenJosh
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. curiouslyminty

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    63
    Ratings:
    +3
    Benjosh- Everything you say only works if we assume the BoM to be inspired revelation. I put it against the test of a false prophet, It fails. I see if it trys to persuade me to something different than the God of the bible, and again I see that It does.

    I could say the same things to you.

    There is to be a test for prophecy,
    1 Cor.14:29: "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge."
    l Thess. 5:19-22 "Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies. Test all things; hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil."
    Matt.7:16-24 vs.15: "Beware of false prophets that come to you in sheep’s clothing."

    The Greek word for “judge” is “diachronic” and means “to doubt, discriminate, or separate thoroughly.

    Acts 17:11 tells us that when Paul came to the Berean's, they reacted to his teachings by searching the Word of God to see if Paul was preaching the truth. Paul called them more noble than the Thessalonians because they were concerned with discerning Truth, using Scripture as the standard. Paul did not discourage them from questioning his teaching even though he was an apostle. He approved of it.

    Training ourselves to hear the Shepherds voice, his word keeps us from harm. When the Bereans heard what seemed like new truth from Paul, they went directly to the word. Not just prayed, they searched the word. THAT my friend is the ultimate test. And I believe it to fail.

    Rom.16:17-18: “Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.”

    I say the current mormon apostles dont act like the biblical ones at all. They would say If ANYTHING I say doesn't match up whats already there, Its false. But now mormons believe they have something new, something better. I don't think mormon's clarifyed and expounded, they created something new. A true apostle would not have had to seperate into a different group with a heirarchy setup of the church. He would have brought it, it been tested by the word of God, and found to be true.

    I would believe you are the one who is deceived. For God would never leave a billion people who follow his word to a less than perfect ending. I don't see how mormons can believe that they are the only ones with a complete version of the scripture.
     
  17. curiouslyminty

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    63
    Ratings:
    +3
    Let me give you some FALSE prophecy of Jospeph Smith. Remembering that even ONE that fails denotes someone not of God.
    The Mormons were forced to flee Missouri due to persecution and a temple was never built on the "temple lot" in the lifetime of Joseph Smith or within the generation of his contemporaries.


    That means he was just wrong. Let me give you another.

    Joseph Smith made this prophecy in May 6, 1843. However, the United States Government did not redress any of the wrongs committed against the Mormons in Missouri, and now over 150 years later, the U.S. Government still stands.


    Or maybe you need another.

    This prophecy was made on April 17, 1838. David W. Patten died in October of 1838 and thus never went on a mission the following spring.


    Another from the Doctrine and Covenants-

    No treasure was ever discovered, nor did Salem ever fell into the hands of the Mormons.

    How many times can God be wrong LDS members? Check the bible and you will see.
     
  18. curiouslyminty

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    63
    Ratings:
    +3
    Over the last 200 years a number of people have claimed to be religious prophets with special spiritual authority from God. These include Charles Taze Russell (Jehovah’s Witnesses), Ellen G. White (Seventh-day Adventists), Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Science), and Joseph Smith (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). Each started an organization which claimed to be the one true Christian Church, each had unique teachings, and each appealed to the Bible to some degree as their basis for spiritual authority. Yet, each "prophet’s" teachings contradict those of the others.

    Even David Whitimer (one of the eyewitnesses of the creation of the book of mormon) writes something VERY interesting.
    hmmm... so joseph sometimes spoke things from the devil? You can't say he is a reliable eyewitness to the creation of the book of mormon (read the front of you BoM) and then say hes not reliable here. Remember you only get 1 strike when it comes to prophecy. And there are many many well documented strikes. We don't need any more.

    I do not believe blind faith is endoresed anywhere in the bible. And that is what is required of mormons.
     
  19. benjosh

    benjosh Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    133
    Ratings:
    +18

    Wow, looks like you 've got all the answers. No need for me to say anything else.

    BenJosh
     
  20. benjosh

    benjosh Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2005
    Messages:
    133
    Ratings:
    +18

    You've come a long way in a short time. And, I thought we were having a discussion. But, I can see that you have become both a lwayer and a judge.

    So, I will let you have your court and not bother you.


    BenJosh
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...