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Hoping for some thoughts from mormons

jonny

Well-Known Member
curiouslyminty said:
Thanks :) Your sincerity helps me more than you know. Reading the old mormon texts non stop for a period of time you begin to see the writers as sort of.. well hard hearted. Talking to open people helps change that. I would like to ask some questions about when you think your prophets are speaking divine truth and when its fallible.. but its late! haha
In the LDS church no one is ever expected to simply accept the prophet's word with blind faith. We sincerly believe that the heavens are open and that we can receive direct revelation from God to assist us in finding truth. I have always been taught to follow the prophet, but I have also been taught that it is my right to pray and ask for understanding and knowledge.

As a general rule, I don't like to doubt the words of the prophets, but there are certain statements that they make which are obviously personal opinion and those are statements for which I find no support in the scripture. If new doctrine is introduced to the church there is a process. This process is seen in the announcement I posted on the priesthood above.

First, revelation from God was sought in the temple by the prophet. He then presented his revelation to the Aposles, who sustained it unanimously. The doctrine was then presented to all general authorities, who also sustained it unanimously. Finally, the doctrine was presented to the entire church, which also accepted it unanimously.

Statements like the ones you posted are the exception, not the rule. They are the statements that tend to get the focus. '

Knowing if something is inspired requires the spirit of God in my opinion. If it does not edify, it is not from God.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
curiouslyminty said:
Or is prophet just a title in LDS? I never even questioned if the use was different than the Old Testiment... :(
No it isn't just a title. The first presidency and apostles are all sustained as Prophet, Seer and Revelators. I don't really believe the use is different than in the Old Testament, but some may disagree with me.

Even the Old Testament prophets were imperfect. The bible is filled with mistakes they made and God chastizing them. I'm sure if we had as much from them as we do from the prophets today there would be plenty to critisize.
 
What I think on that subject curiouslyminty, I believe that prophets are falliable, and they may say some things that aren't true and aren't divine inspiration, but we are taught in the Church to pray over something when it is given and if we feel it is right then we do it and know it is right. That's a quick answer for now, I'm tired and I start school tomorrow!
So when he says something... we pray and personally decide the truth for ourselves? Thats allows alot of room for error.

I found a site that It making some pretty bold accusitory claims AGAINST the mormon church. So if your not in the mood for that I wouldn't recommend it. Found it searching for 'considering mormonism' lol http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm - I can't vouch for any validity in the statements but I am going to the our library tomorrow to do research. Be back in a day or two.. better informed :)
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
curiouslyminty said:
So when he says something... we pray and personally decide the truth for ourselves? Thats allows alot of room for error.

I found a site that It making some pretty bold accusitory claims AGAINST the mormon church. So if your not in the mood for that I wouldn't recommend it. Found it searching for 'considering mormonism' lol http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm - I can't vouch for any validity in the statements but I am going to the our library tomorrow to do research. Be back in a day or two.. better informed :)
Better to trust the Church's site, what I think is, if you want information, go to the source, usually(99.9% of the time) they are aren't hiding anything. It's like people want to believe that we(or any other faiths) are hiding things, like it's some big consipiracy theory. Oh well, just my two cents on the issue.
 
jonny said:
No it isn't just a title. The first presidency and apostles are all sustained as Prophet, Seer and Revelators. I don't really believe the use is different than in the Old Testament, but some may disagree with me.

Even the Old Testament prophets were imperfect. The bible is filled with mistakes they made and God chastizing them. I'm sure if we had as much from them as we do from the prophets today there would be plenty to critisize.
Deuteronimy 18 says that if a prophet makes even 1 incorrect claim. He's not a prophet. I think its understood that noones perfect. But when CLAIMING that God is speaking through you, GOD is.
 
beckysoup61 said:
Better to trust the Church's site, what I think is, if you want information, go to the source, usually(99.9% of the time) they are aren't hiding anything. It's like people want to believe that we(or any other faiths) are hiding things, like it's some big consipiracy theory. Oh well, just my two cents on the issue.
haha i trust no organization. I do trust my own eyes looking at the earliest documents in a library. If the mormon church says 'this is what it says' and i go found out that it doesn't... well I would trust the document.

BUT that hasn't happened yet. I'm just pointing it out :)
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
curiouslyminty said:
So when he says something... we pray and personally decide the truth for ourselves? Thats allows alot of room for error.

I found a site that It making some pretty bold accusitory claims AGAINST the mormon church. So if your not in the mood for that I wouldn't recommend it. Found it searching for 'considering mormonism' lol http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm - I can't vouch for any validity in the statements but I am going to the our library tomorrow to do research. Be back in a day or two.. better informed :)
Mormons are a favorite target of many evangelical Christian groups. You will find your fair share of anti-Mormon literature on the internet. In fact, it's almost impossible to find good information without having to sort through the bad.

Here are some sites that I would recommend. If you are going to look at the anti-Mormon sites, which is probably the case, please at least give as much attention to the apologetics and official sites.

www.lds.org - official church site - where you should spend most of your time doing research. There is tons of information here
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.shtml - really good site IMO
www.mormon.org - official church site with information for those interested in learning more about the church
www.fairlds.org - discussion and Mormon apologetics
farms.byu.edu - Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies
www.fair-lds.org - more apologetics
Wikipedia.com - most of the information here is pretty accurate and unbiased
http://www.shields-research.org/
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
curiouslyminty said:
Deuteronimy 18 says that if a prophet makes even 1 incorrect claim. He's not a prophet. I think its understood that noones perfect. But when CLAIMING that God is speaking through you, GOD is.
I have something to say to this, but I know it won't come out right, so I'll try tomorrow, remind me tomorrow if somebody doesn't answer it.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
curiouslyminty said:
Deuteronimy 18 says that if a prophet makes even 1 incorrect claim. He's not a prophet. I think its understood that noones perfect. But when CLAIMING that God is speaking through you, GOD is.
Deutronomy is also the Old Testament and the Mosiac Law and the Mosiac Law was fufilled when Christ came.
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
beckysoup61 said:
Deutronomy is also the Old Testament and the Mosiac Law and the Mosiac Law was fufilled when Christ came.
I really don't think that the law of Moses has anything to do with the scriptures that are being referenced. It has more to do with knowing when the prophet is claiming to speak in the name of the Lord and when he isn't.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
jonny said:
I really don't think that the law of Moses has anything to do with the scriptures that are being referenced. It has more to do with knowing when the prophet is claiming to speak in the name of the Lord and when he isn't.
You're probably right, that's just always been my take on it. Thanks for clearing it up.:clap :162:
 

benjosh

Member
curiouslyminty said:




I bought a copy of the book of mormon and read the entire thing in one night actually. (three weeks ago) It sort of caught me offguard. To be honest I could barely believe what i was reading. So i bought a few commentaries and discovered the sort of shocking views on skin color, many Gods, and maybe more interestingly the claim that we all might become Gods.
Did i interpret some verses incorrectly? probably... Thats why im here. :biglaugh:Three questions/points and ill be done.



Curiously,

I am approaching you in my reply as though you are a serious seeker. I am not a Mormon, per se, but I am a believer inthe truth of the Book of Mormon. I would like to point something out to you so that you might reflect on what you have just stated (in the quote above).

You said you read the Book of Mormon. I can understand where you might have a big question about skin color, but the other two things you mention (Many Gods, and all becoming gods) are not found within the Book of Mormon.

Did you read about many Gods in the Book of Mormon or did someone, supposedly, more learned than you, break it down for you so that you would know the evil in the Book of Mormon? The shocking things you discovered only came after you read commentaries.

If you read the Book of Mormon you surely read Jesus' words in 3rd Nephi.


11: 27 And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name, for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.

36 And thus will the Father bear record of me; and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost, are one.


If the many Gods are the three in one of the Book of Mormon then you better straighten out a lot of Protestants. They are believing things plainly taught in the Book of Mormon.

Did the commentaters show you the passages in the Book of Mormon that taught many Gods, and the claim that we all might become Gods?


Don't confuse the Book of Mormon with people's commentaries, opinions or claims of insight. You have within you the intelligence and will to decide your own course in life. Like Adam and Eve you make your own decisions about good and evil.

I think one of the trees in the garden may have been labeled commentaries.


BenJosh


mispellars of the wurld untie
 
Well to be honest I don't find the book of mormon, self containted, as a dramatic change of thought from classical christianity. AND I would like to add, if Joseph Smith had merely recorded the books and let them be what they may. Then I would study that only. But the mormon church is imo closer to being set up catholic.. in terms that someone is ALWAYS the supreme prophet. Heirarchy(sp?) setup of a church leads to suspicion on my part, much like I had while attending mass.

Actually many God's are clearly evident. Mormon's believe in eternal progression. In other words we all can become like God.. --

Joseph Smith -King Follett Discourse, Journal of Discourses 6:3-4: it's also in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 342-345: God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know...that he was once a man like us.... Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves,... the same as all Gods have done before you...
Joseph Smith -Times and Seasons, vol. 5, pp.613-14: First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heavens, is a man like unto one of yourselves, that is the great secret.... I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity.... God himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did.... You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves.... No man can learn you more than what I have told you.
Brigham Young -Journal of Discourses 3:93: The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like himself.
Apostle Orson Pratt -Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.345: If we should take a million of worlds like this and number their particles, we should find that there are more Gods than there are particles of matter in those worlds.
If you want more 'prophet' writings on eternal progression I'll be glad to look for you later tonight. These were all found using reference software at the Atlanta city library.

I've been also looking up things on the mormon view of the virgin birth. Again it leads me back to the prophet and his almost comical rendition. Brigham Young once stated: This statement is in conflict with both the Bible and the Book of Mormon. In Matthew 1:18 and 20 we read: "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.... for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." The Book of Mormon agrees with the Bible on this point because in Alma 7:10 we read: "And behold, he shall be born of Mary, ... she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God."

Ok.. then why does Joseph Smith deny that the Book of Mormon and the Bible teach that Christ was begotten by the Holy Ghost:
They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches no such thing! Neither does the Bible- Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.19.
And-
"Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost- Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p.51.
And I don't think this counts as a virgin birth-
"These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp.546-47).
I have countless other examples from about 3 hours of reference searching for words, then finding the original writings on microfiche. And I think I'm about done :) I find it very intriguing when a large group proclaims something, but I don't see reasonable evidence to continue the search.


Let me ask a last question I hadn't gotten to yet. Are there many mormons that DONT attend the 'official' church or believe the extra writtings? Maybe a group that only holds to the scriptural book of mormon? That would be a key factor for me now.
 
BTW I did find it suprising that ya'll are saying you don't believe that LDS's believe what i originally posted. I thought it was just doctrine since its found in the teachings. :\ I was really wondering WHY you believed it. Not trying to argue WHAT you believed :) this post has strayed from what I intended i guess. I apologize for taking too big a bite at once.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
I'm just going to add a little thought:

I wonder how surprised we would be if we were able to have more of the personal discussions/writtings, etc of people like Paul, Peter, Moses, etc. Pretty much everything we have from them is from when they were speaking in their capacities of Prophets and Apostles, so it is easy to assume that they never were not acting in that capacity. I don't know how good of an assumption that is. They might have had some strange ideas of their own, but we don't know about them. Just a thought.
 
But do we (christians) not consider the writings from the apostles we do have to be infallible scripture? If we had another book from paul It would be added to the bible I would contend.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
curiouslyminty said:
But do we (christians) not consider the writings from the apostles we do have to be infallible scripture? If we had another book from paul It would be added to the bible I would contend.
And there is the debate. If another book was found that had anything strange in it, people would automatically say that it wasn't really from Paul. Take a look at the Gospel of Thomas for example. Thomas was an apostle, but most Christians will tell you that his Gospel is not scripture.

I really don't know much about the subject. I'm just throwing out ideas to stir the pot a bit.
 

benjosh

Member
curiouslyminty said:
I've been also looking up things on the mormon view of the virgin birth. Again it leads me back to the prophet and his almost comical rendition. Brigham Young once stated: This statement is in conflict with both the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

Curiously,

If the immensity and effect of Brigham Young's fraud were not so far reaching, it would of itself be a great comedy. Joseph Smith was not in conflict with the Bibel or the Book of Mormon. And, to show you the truth of my statement I will shift from virgin birth to ploygamy because this is where Brigham is himself exposed as the one in conflict with Biblical Christianity.

Let me lay out a simple response to your comment or posit a possibility you may have not considered.
When you are reading Brigham Young or anything from the LDS church you are reading commentary on Joseph Smith Jr.
Many of the things taught by the Mormon church have no connection with the teachings of the Book of Mormon or the life of Joseph Smith.
Polygamy is one example.
Ether 10:5 And it came to pass that Riplakish did not do that which was right in the sight of the Lord, for he did have many wives and concubines, and did lay that upon men’s shoulders which was grievous to be borne; yea, he did tax them with heavy taxes; and with the taxes he did build many spacious buildings.

Jacob 1:15 And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old, desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son:

Jacob 2:23-24 For behold, thus saith the Lord, This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures: for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son. 33 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives, and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord,

The difference between Brigham Young (and the LDS) and Joseph SMith is that Joseph SMith believed the Book of Mormon was a book from God. Therefore, it offered direction for his life, as well as the Bible.
Though the Bible records the fact that David and Solomon had many wives and concubines, no direct statement is made about what God thinks about it.
In the Book of Mormon a direct statement is made about God's view of the practice of polygamy and the man who was God's instrument to bring that record forth is accused of it.
Personally, I am going to go one step further than Bible and Christians and say, God condemns polygamy. (And, I've got scripture to prove it.)
ANd most Christians will respond in a way that demonstrates their brains aren't fully functional.
Let's see. . . . . . . if a book claims to be the word of God condemns polygamy and people say they believe polygamy is okay but also say they believe the book is of God .............. where is the contradiction? Is it in the book? Is it in the person who lives and teaches contrary to the book?
And if the person who says God gave him the gift and power to bring forth the book does not practice polygamy himself. . . . . but someone who is living the contradiction stated above, spreads polygamy to the point the US government has to intervene . . . . . should say a lot of things about Joseph Smith as untrue as his own life is to the teachings of the book. . . . . would you think something might be awfully fishy here?
And if the wife of Joseph Smith and Christians who knew Joseph Smith closely stated that the only polygamy practiced was among those whom Joseph was seeking to expel fromthe church . . . . who would you believe?
There are some big contradictions here. But they are not in the life of Joseph Smith. Joseph was true to the Book of Mormon.
Curiouslyminty, like other sincere people come along, and they investigate and the subject of Joseph Smith and his supposed craziness are so rampant that the statitistical mountain is so huge that it is almost considered blasphemy to suggest that the size of the mountain has nothing to do with its validility.
The true story is buried in a mountain of lies.

You also said,

Let me ask a last question I hadn't gotten to yet. Are there many mormons that DONT attend the 'official' church or believe the extra writtings? Maybe a group that only holds to the scriptural book of mormon? That would be a key factor for me now

Yes, there are quite a few. I do not consider myself Mormon, but I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the book of Mormon is true. Church structure and organization is a different matter.
You mentioned tha you were in Liberty, MO at one time. Did you attend William Jewell? What were you doin' in my neck of the woods?

Looking foirward to your reply, BenJosh
 

benjosh

Member
curiouslyminty said:
And I understand that it is not just ONE man. But his wife and close friends. I still see it as jump of faith of monstrous proportions. A clarifyer(sp)- upon reading the book of mormon for the first time, did you immediately believe? or were you pursuaded by God or Man over time?

If it helps, I won't respond but merely read :) I don't want to seem like im attacking.. however much it might look like it. I want to know why I do or don't believe!



I was persuaded by God in spite of man.

BenJOsh
 

SoyLeche

meh...
benjosh said:
Curiously,
Jacob 1:15 And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old, desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son:

Jacob 2:32 (should be verse 23) For behold, thus saith the Lord, This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures: for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son. 33 (should be verse 24) Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives, and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord,
Ben,

I don't want to turn this into a discussion about whether or not God is okay with the whole Polygamy thing, but I do want to point out that you have done what most people do when they bring up this passage of scripture: you've ignored what it says next.

Oh, by the way, it looks like you've got your verse numbers wrong, at least according to my book.

Okay - Verse 30 of chapter 2: For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
 
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