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Hope for things which are not seen.

Audie

Veteran Member
How do you handle what cannot be known?

Again, nothing to do with " choosing" to believe-
unless one is successful at self deception.

Since 99x10 to the 50th or so of everything
is unknowable, I think we all find ways to
just live our lives without knowing.

When i want to know, I make an effort
to learn.

Im not a researcher, but its the essence of science; scientists chose their profession because they are curious people who to
discover things.

How anyone can be satisfied to just choose a made up* " answer" is beyond me.

* assuming that even one " revealed" answer
is correct, that leaves the 99x10 to the
whatever of answers that are just fantasy.
Choose one! Then say you believe it!
Sorryah, not for me.
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
No such scenarios make any sense to me, given that I don't hold humans as being in any sense special enough to be worthy of any of this (whatever 'this' might mean) - even the best of us (not me) - and such merely being what we might project or wish as to such things. And hence quite explicable, given that most will desire some particular thing from life, and perhaps from death or what might follow. Just not an area to wallow in, in my view, since it is just such - fanciful projecting. :oops:

All that equal - equal would be incredibly boring. Especially with nothing to learn.

What is there to talk about? Or do?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
A good birth with loving parents, a fulfilled life, a peaceful death. It doesn't get much better than that.
I've never been able to work it out. Either it's Paul's earth with evergrowing billions of dead standing on top of each other (their nourishment and sanitary requirements are rather obscure), or it's a disembodied spirit with no means of sensory input, or memory, or generating emotions, or its an over-the-rainbow autarchic "kingdom" of some kind, or it's the heavily male-oriented Muslim heaven somewhere. The main elements seem to be pleasure, eternity, no say in government, and minimal intellectual content (though perhaps the Jewish heaven has something of the kind?).

I'm content, when my time's up, just to get out of the way, the same as everyone else has done or will do.
Mark Twain had very interesting thoughts
on heaven.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
All that equal - equal would be incredibly boring. Especially with nothing to learn.

What is there to talk about? Or do?
Quite. I can't imagine a more boring life than us all being so equal and so loving - and us just observing all the reality passing by. :oops:
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
For what we cannot know - what comes after death, existence before birth, the origin and eternal destiny of all - what is the best-case scenerio? If you could define heaven, what would it be?..........

To me, Jesus gives the best-case scenerio because Jesus taught what comes after death.
Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures and both Jesus and the OT teach 'sleep' after death.
( John 11:11-14; Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5 )
As with Adam there was No existence before Adam came to life according to Genesis 2:7.
So, there is No existence before birth for any of us.
As far as destiny for all -> there are three destinies for human creation:
1) Before Christ there was only the physical resurrection hope of being brought back to live life forever on Earth.
2) Christ made possible for 'some people' (like those of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18) to be resurrected to Heaven.
3) At the soon coming Glory Time for Jesus (Matthew 25:31-33,37) the figurative humble ' sheep' can remain alive on Earth and continue to live on Earth starting with Day One of Jesus' 1,000 year reign over Earth.
As for the figurative haughty 'goats' they will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22.
The majority of people are offered as Adam was offered everlasting life on Earth.
As far as to 'define heaven' in Heaven there is No pollution, No crime, No violence, No war, No sickness, No death.
The people resurrected to Heaven I find have two (2) jobs to perform. - Revelation 5:9-10
They will serve with Jesus as being kings and priests over people living on Earth.
As kings they will take care of governmental responsibilities for people living on Earth.
As priests they will take care of spiritual duties towards people living on Earth.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
All that equal - equal would be incredibly boring. Especially with nothing to learn. What is there to talk about? Or do?

There will always be something to learn because mankind will never know all that God knows.
Thus we will never cease learning new things. - Ecclesiastes 3:11
Eden was a sample garden. God's purpose was that we expand that paradisical garden earth wide.
God has not abandoned His purpose for us.
Also, what healthy person wants to pick the day they want to die ______
So, I find under normal healthy conditions the answer would be no.
Eternity is in our hearts for each day we can think of we and think of a next day.
I never tire taking about my favorite foods.
I never tire of seeing favorite people. I always look forward to seeing favorite people.
As far as what we will do: a clue is found at Isaiah 65:21-25
It mentions we will build houses (plural). So, with inheriting the whole earth (Matthew 5:5) we could live various places on Earth and build a house wherever we move and so forth.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
There will always be something to learn because mankind will never know all that God knows.
Thus we will never cease learning new things. - Ecclesiastes 3:11
Eden was a sample garden. God's purpose was that we expand that paradisical garden earth wide.
God has not abandoned His purpose for us.
Also, what healthy person wants to pick the day they want to die ______
So, I find under normal healthy conditions the answer would be no.
Eternity is in our hearts for each day we can think of we and think of a next day.
I never tire taking about my favorite foods.
I never tire of seeing favorite people. I always look forward to seeing favorite people.
As far as what we will do: a clue is found at Isaiah 65:21-25
It mentions we will build houses (plural). So, with inheriting the whole earth (Matthew 5:5) we could live various places on Earth and build a house wherever we move and so forth.
Beats being given everything
 

idea

Question Everything
All that equal - equal would be incredibly boring. Especially with nothing to learn.

What is there to talk about? Or do?

Nothing more to learn, but infinite creative potential - no limit to music, art, poetry, food -worlds without end to infinity create peaceful, joyful, perfectly - formed creations. All-knowing is needed to create perfectly functioning well-formed, beautifully composed creations.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Mark Twain had very interesting thoughtson heaven.
Ah, now and then I miss the days of the desk calendar with a line of wisdom a day waiting for me! Like:

Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
─ Mark Twain​
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Nothing more to learn, but infinite creative potential - no limit to music, art, poetry, food -worlds without end to infinity create peaceful, joyful, perfectly - formed creations. All-knowing is needed to create perfectly functioning well-formed, beautifully composed creations.
What would be the point of it?
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
For what we cannot know - what comes after death, existence before birth, the origin and eternal destiny of all - what is the best-case scenerio? If you could define heaven, what would it be?

For me - no heirarchies, no one better than anyone else, no sexism, no racism, all equally educated, equal and all-knowing, everyone fully present with everyone else.

My opinions:

Hope is always for the unseen or unrealized. If it hasn't happened yet, we can hope that it will.

I never thought of the lower east side of heaven (thinking of Queens, Bronx, New York)--the wrong side of the tracks. Is heaven a place where rough edged but good people sit around smokey poker tables and gamble? It seems to me that Sodom was destroyed because of such gaming, so I would assume that gambling (except for bingo) is not allowed in heaven. How did bingo get an exclusion?

Purgatory is not hell, but it is a place where human vices are purged (hence, the name purgatory). So, when all of the sex talk, pee talk, failing heart, failing liver, and other talk is done, one can move on to a higher plane of heaven. It is a plane where discussing bodies (essentially monkey shells for the spirit) are irritating. In heaven, there are better things to contemplate, and most of the souls are of the same mind, and their thoughts are almost verbatim the same, after an eternity of discussing concepts with other souls.

I don't think that they have poker in heaven because there are no dealers (the ones who deal horrible cards that make us lose). There are no lawyers in heaven (so we can't sue). I wonder if we could phone hell to get someone to represent us....someone who understands sin? Maybe, in heaven, we could have a jury of our peers (axe murderers would have a jury of fellow axe murderers).

We can assume that heaven is not for those who sacrifice others (that is greed). Abraham defied God and exhibited greed when he was about to kill his son in order to obey God. Abraham didn't care what happened to his son, as long as he made it into heaven (very greedy, cold, and murderous). Would such people, who defy God's commandment not to kill, make it into heaven? Would heaven be a place worth going if such people made it in? Even if they thought that they were obeying God, heaven would be a hellish place if anyone was allowed in.

Without bodies, there is no sex or race. However, having lived a life, undoubtedly we take some of our ethnicity with us everywhere we go, including heaven. Maybe we would like to taste ethnic food that we miss (the kind that mama used to make), every now and then? I know that we wouldn't have to eat in heaven, but occasionally it might be nice to have the sensation of eating.

Do we remember our past lives in heaven? Or, are we like a cleared blank slate that can't remember our past. How could we get a reward for being good if we can't remember? Is there reincarnation, and could we remember past lives? Do we meet past spouses? What if they remarried many times? Do we meet our kids, grandkids, and great grand kids in heaven? Is heaven lonely? Would other souls communicate with us, or is there a hierarchy in heaven where we are not good enough to talk to the really cool people? Maybe the soul of George Washington is too busy talking to other important souls to talk to us?

Why would every soul have an equal eduacation? Wouldn't it be more interesting to discuss things with experts in many different fields? Are souls all-knowing, or is that just for God? If everyoine is equally present with everyone else, wouldn't that get tiresome? If you are interesting, there would be a crowd of souls trying to communicate with you all the time. Maybe there is no time in heaven?

There seem to be more questions than answers about the unknown.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Ah, now and then I miss the days of the desk calendar with a line of wisdom a day waiting for me! Like:

Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
─ Mark Twain​

We can find websites of Mark Twain quotations and lines of wisdom from other authors. We have the wisdom of the world, stretching back centuries, at our fingertips. We can communicate with others who share our views and with those who beg to differ (which makes things more interesting). Fortunately, I'm right (joking).
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
In essence, yes. More accurately, how one reacts to pain.

My opinion:

We can train our minds to minimize pain. Some self-hypnotize so they can have major surgery.

The same is true of mental anguish. For example, there is a story about a pessimist and an optimist. The pessimist was given a toy store, and had every toy possible at his disposal. The optimist has locked in a room of horse manure. Two hours later, the pessimist was slumped in a corner and bored. The optimist, on the other hand, had his head in the manure with his feet in the air, and someone asked why. The optimist said that with all this horse manure there must be a pony somewhere, and he was going to find it.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
For what we cannot know - what comes after death, existence before birth, the origin and eternal destiny of all - what is the best-case scenerio? If you could define heaven, what would it be?

For me - no heirarchies, no one better than anyone else, no sexism, no racism, all equally educated, equal and all-knowing, everyone fully present with everyone else.

Some argue that we already know death because before we were born we were not alive. Most people can't remember anything before they were born, and many have a hard time remembering early childhood.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We can find websites of Mark Twain quotations and lines of wisdom from other authors. We have the wisdom of the world, stretching back centuries, at our fingertips. We can communicate with others who share our views and with those who beg to differ (which makes things more interesting). Fortunately, I'm right (joking).
I can recall a few favorites from my desk calendar:

Sympathy is what you offer in exchange for the details.

He who is not handsome at 20, strong at 30, rich at 40 and wise at 50 will never be handsome, strong, rich or wise.

An optimist is someone who thinks he'll feel more like washing up in the morning.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I can recall a few favorites from my desk calendar:

Sympathy is what you offer in exchange for the details.

He who is not handsome at 20, strong at 30, rich at 40 and wise at 50 will never be handsome, strong, rich or wise.

An optimist is someone who thinks he'll feel more like washing up in the morning.

"There is beauty in extreme old age. Do we fancy that we are elderly enough?" Gilbert and Sullivan....Mikado.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
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