Homosexuality

[Jeremiah Ames]

i came across a report about the newly elected president of the Southern Baptist Convention. Apparently he used part of a sermon from another pastor. (He was given permission, but did not credit the other pastor).
big deal

but the topic was eye opening


here is a portion taken from the article, which was written by Bob Smietana, from the Roys Report:


“I want you to turn to your neighbor right now. And I want you to say, I know this sermon is going to be really tough for you,” he says.

The two pastors also say very similar things about homosexuality, which both believe is sinful.

But they each say Christians have erred by treating sexual sin as if it is worse than other sins — and singling out LGBT people as the worst of sinners.

“Homosexuality does not send you to hell,” says Greear. “You know how I know that? Because heterosexuality does not send you to heaven.”


Quite interesting statement at the end there.


this is a good start in the right direction, imo.


i believe the Christian religions crusade against homosexuals is the result of serious biblical misinterpretation, but what do I know?


the Bible has over 31000 verses with a specific theme summarized by Jesus when he answered the question “what is the greatest commandment”?


yet Christianity and many within the religion have treated the Bible as if it had only two messages:

don’t be homosexual and don’t abort babies


strange, that those two things aren’t even found in the Bible, and NOT in the words of Jesus. imo


your thoughts on this statement?:


“Homosexuality does not send you to hell,” says Greear. “You know how I know that? Because heterosexuality does not send you to heaven.”


Greear was the previous SBC president, and Litton is the new president as of last week
it does seem a big deal when you see people at the top of an extremely conservative religious organization sending a message that deviates from the narrative that has been so strongly pushed for decades in Christianity.
could it be a response to their declining numbers ?



link to article:
New SBC President Apologizes for Using JD Greear Sermon Without Credit

 

[fantome profane]

i believe the Christian religions crusade against homosexuals is the result of serious biblical misinterpretation, but what do I know?

It is not that simple. It is not just a matter of misreading a few words in a text.

There is in many people a deep fundamental need to hate. Hate the Jews, and when that goes out of fashion hate the Blacks. Hate the gays till you can’t do that anymore so you hate the trans.

There will always be someone to hate, a different religion, a different ethnicity, a different political party, doesn’t matter.

And you can always find an interpretation of the text to help you hate. Or you can just write a new scripture if you need to.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

your thoughts on this statement?:


“Homosexuality does not send you to hell,” says Greear. “You know how I know that? Because heterosexuality does not send you to heaven.”

They still have Mormons and Catholics and Jews and Muslims and atheists and abortion amd happy holidays and xmas and empowered women and so many other things they hate and condemn and renounce that even if they cut down on homosexuality they'll still have plenty of hate to go around.

 

[SigurdReginson]

It is not that simple. It is not just a matter of misreading a few words in a text.

There is in many people a deep fundamental need to hate. Hate the Jews, and when that goes out of fashion hate the Blacks. Hate the gays till you can’t do that anymore so you hate the trans.

There will always be someone to hate, a different religion, a different ethnicity, a different political party, doesn’t matter.

And you can always find an interpretation of the text to help you hate. Or you can just write a new scripture if you need to.

I disagree. The fact change is happening is hopeful and exciting, I think.

Nothing happens over night. Baby steps.

 

[fantome profane]

I also feel this is a step in the right direction.

I think a focus on the loving nature of Christ is going to resonate with people more tha


I disagree. The fact change is happening is hopeful and exciting, I think.

Nothing happens over night. Baby steps.

What change?

Yes, some are more tolerant and loving, and some less. As it has always been and always shall be.

This is not new. Read the story, it is literally an old sermon. What change?


(And they are still saying homosexuality is a sin, just not the worst sin. How generous)

 

[Brickjectivity]

i believe the Christian religions crusade against homosexuals is the result of serious biblical misinterpretation, but what do I know?

In the USA in the 1960's we had something called the 'Free Love' movement. We also had a proposed amendment to our constitution called the Equal Rights Amendment. Films also began to question ideas about sexuality. These brought to the forefront ideas about homosexuality.

All of this new thought and public discourse about sex, all of this media, all of this discussion about legislation became a basis to feign righteous indignation. Once in the public mind it became useful to talk about on stage in the new TV church medium. The issues became a segway to get Christians, previously inactive, voting. The new Religious Right was born.

You can see similar, smaller versions of the same thing in fads and church ministry reactions. Rock'n Roll. Rock'n Roll was an amazing thing, became popular and then became a scarecrow for preachers to talk about. Eventually it became something that didn't scare people and lost its utility as a scaring device. So did Evolution. So did the Russians. Homosexuality has remained scary. So has abortion. Both remain useful scaring devices.

 

[SigurdReginson]

What change?

Yes, some are more tolerant and loving, and some less. As it has always been and always shall be.

This is not new. Read the story, it is literally an old sermon. What change?


(And they are still saying homosexuality is a sin, just not the worst sin. How generous)

Oh whoops! I started writing something in response and ditched it, only to have it saved without my notice! I'll go erase it...

Well, the fact that a pastor from the SBC gave it is a pretty big deal to me. Keep in mind, when I was a kid, there were pro segregation positions taught in the SBC centered homeschool curriculum I was raised with. I see this and it actually feels like a bigger step to me if they are willing to concede they might have been wrong on a thing or two... This gives me hope.

 

[sun rise]

The advantage of being as old as I am is that the progress is not only notable but also obvious. I think it's fair to say that there has been more change in the past 50-60 years than in the preceding 1000 years - it's that dramatic.

Of course there are people who have gone off the deep end crazy because they hate that change, but in society as a whole, people now understand and accept that which they once utterly rejected.

And the change is continuing.

 

[AlexanderG]

It is not that simple. It is not just a matter of misreading a few words in a text.

There is in many people a deep fundamental need to hate. Hate the Jews, and when that goes out of fashion hate the Blacks. Hate the gays till you can’t do that anymore so you hate the trans.

There will always be someone to hate, a different religion, a different ethnicity, a different political party, doesn’t matter.

And you can always find an interpretation of the text to help you hate. Or you can just write a new scripture if you need to.

In some ways, I totally agree with this statement. I think studies have shown that about 33% of humanity is predisposed to being uncomfortable or afraid of new ideas, new experiences, and different people, whereas another 33% actively enjoy new experiences, new ways, etc. That's not going to change.

However, what is changing is the way we live. We are inevitably exposed to more people and ideas whether we like it or not, as people are moving around the world, living more within urban cosmopolitan centers, and accessing the internet and all of its varied notions. Whatever your predisposition, it's hard to hate an entire class of people if you actually know some of them personally.

I think we're living at an inflection point, where the old bigots are seeing their culture of hatred and suppression die before their eyes. For example, about 75% of Evangelical youth are walking away from the faith once they leave their parents' roof. Unless they want to kill everyone under 45 or so, there is absolutely nothing they can do to stop it. Will there be disorder or even stochastic violence, when they're corned in their last little rat hole, as I'd argue we saw on January 6th? Very possibly. But we will move on past it in the end, just like their ways will be ground to dust under the inexorable millstone of demographic change. Goooooo progress!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What change?

Yes, some are more tolerant and loving, and some less. As it has always been and always shall be.

This is not new. Read the story, it is literally an old sermon. What change?


(And they are still saying homosexuality is a sin, just not the worst sin. How generous)

We're movin' on up

 

[AlexanderG]

i
“Homosexuality does not send you to hell,” says Greear. “You know how I know that? Because heterosexuality does not send you to heaven.”


Greear was the previous SBC president, and Litton is the new president as of last week
it does seem a big deal when you see people at the top of an extremely conservative religious organization sending a message that deviates from the narrative that has been so strongly pushed for decades in Christianity.
could it be a response to their declining numbers ?

Based on what I've read, the core leadership of the SBC is very concerned about the politics surrounding membership and income. Seen through that lens, I think they're trying to play both sides with these sorts of statements.

1. "Homosexuality does not send you to hell" is a wink to the old guard who understand the often-used equivocation, that feeling gay desires is not sinful but actually engaging in gay sex within a fulfilling, loving gay relationship is a sin that will send you to hell. The

2. "Homosexuality does not send you to hell" can also be interpreted by others as meaning that the SBC is taking a softer position, that they're saying it's not really a sin, or maybe it's even ok to be gay. Honestly, I think this is a smokescreen. It's a political strategy of saying something vague enough to not directly offend anyone while letting everyone personally read into it whatever message they want.

 

[Martin]

"Love thy neighbour as thyself" is pretty clear, isn't it?

 

[AlexanderG]

"Love thy neighbour as thyself" is pretty clear, isn't it?

The problem is, while conservative Christians are insisting their actions are done out of love, for so many of us their "love" looks and feels like hatred.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

i came across a report about the newly elected president of the Southern Baptist Convention. Apparently he used part of a sermon from another pastor. (He was given permission, but did not credit the other pastor).
big deal

but the topic was eye opening


here is a portion taken from the article, which was written by Bob Smietana, from the Roys Report:


“I want you to turn to your neighbor right now. And I want you to say, I know this sermon is going to be really tough for you,” he says.

The two pastors also say very similar things about homosexuality, which both believe is sinful.

But they each say Christians have erred by treating sexual sin as if it is worse than other sins — and singling out LGBT people as the worst of sinners.

“Homosexuality does not send you to hell,” says Greear. “You know how I know that? Because heterosexuality does not send you to heaven.”


Quite interesting statement at the end there.


this is a good start in the right direction, imo.


i believe the Christian religions crusade against homosexuals is the result of serious biblical misinterpretation, but what do I know?


the Bible has over 31000 verses with a specific theme summarized by Jesus when he answered the question “what is the greatest commandment”?


yet Christianity and many within the religion have treated the Bible as if it had only two messages:

don’t be homosexual and don’t abort babies


strange, that those two things aren’t even found in the Bible, and NOT in the words of Jesus. imo


your thoughts on this statement?:


“Homosexuality does not send you to hell,” says Greear. “You know how I know that? Because heterosexuality does not send you to heaven.”


Greear was the previous SBC president, and Litton is the new president as of last week
it does seem a big deal when you see people at the top of an extremely conservative religious organization sending a message that deviates from the narrative that has been so strongly pushed for decades in Christianity.
could it be a response to their declining numbers ?



link to article:
New SBC President Apologizes for Using JD Greear Sermon Without Credit

As long as there is "love the sinner not the sin," change won't happen soon. Christians would need not feel they are compromising their beliefs by saying that people can have sex with those they love. Without that tip of the iceberg, I'm not sure what moral view would change. Politics, sure. Tolerance. Even now churches who accept you with a clause.

I don't know how a Christian would react if there they experience cognitive dissonance between someone's life and their own faith. The only few ways I read and listen of change is if a Christian finds out they are homosexual, they have a child who is, or crisis in faith. I saw a video of a old man break down crying on a TED Talk cause, as a conservative fundamentalist minister, he experienced first hand how teachers told his trans child to "lift up her skirt" to see which bathroom his child should go to.

I'm not really a hope person or faith person. It's hard for me to be motivated on possibilities when I won't see the results in my lifetime.

If I see christians at PRIDE, I smile. If someone said they are LGBT and, say, catholic I smile. People who know Who they are despite adversity.

I don't believe we need a huge flag to change. A lot of it starts in your head and heart not just by verse and color.

 

[SomeRandom]

i came across a report about the newly elected president of the Southern Baptist Convention. Apparently he used part of a sermon from another pastor. (He was given permission, but did not credit the other pastor).
big deal

but the topic was eye opening


here is a portion taken from the article, which was written by Bob Smietana, from the Roys Report:


“I want you to turn to your neighbor right now. And I want you to say, I know this sermon is going to be really tough for you,” he says.

The two pastors also say very similar things about homosexuality, which both believe is sinful.

But they each say Christians have erred by treating sexual sin as if it is worse than other sins — and singling out LGBT people as the worst of sinners.

“Homosexuality does not send you to hell,” says Greear. “You know how I know that? Because heterosexuality does not send you to heaven.”


Quite interesting statement at the end there.


this is a good start in the right direction, imo.


i believe the Christian religions crusade against homosexuals is the result of serious biblical misinterpretation, but what do I know?


the Bible has over 31000 verses with a specific theme summarized by Jesus when he answered the question “what is the greatest commandment”?


yet Christianity and many within the religion have treated the Bible as if it had only two messages:

don’t be homosexual and don’t abort babies


strange, that those two things aren’t even found in the Bible, and NOT in the words of Jesus. imo


your thoughts on this statement?:


“Homosexuality does not send you to hell,” says Greear. “You know how I know that? Because heterosexuality does not send you to heaven.”


Greear was the previous SBC president, and Litton is the new president as of last week
it does seem a big deal when you see people at the top of an extremely conservative religious organization sending a message that deviates from the narrative that has been so strongly pushed for decades in Christianity.
could it be a response to their declining numbers ?



link to article:
New SBC President Apologizes for Using JD Greear Sermon Without Credit

As my “Church of God” Christian attending family would say to anyone condemning gay people or atheist or whoever, “I hope you’ve removed that mote in your own eye.”

 

[Nimos]

i believe the Christian religions crusade against homosexuals is the result of serious biblical misinterpretation, but what do I know?

I don't think I would agree with that, it is not really difficult to make a case for why God think homosexsuality is wrong according to the bible. There are some verses in it that are difficult to defend, if that weren't the case.

And it shows the stupidity that religion can bring to people i think. Throwing the bible and all other religious text aside for just a second, and then ask the question again. "In which way is homosexsualily wrong? what reasons are there for holding such belief?"

Normally when people are asked to make a judgement about, whether something is right or wrong. It is fairly easy to give a sound reason for it, such as "Because it is harmful for someone or something", that is not exactly easy to do with homosexsuality, because no one is harmed by it.

So usually people will have to give a reason, like "I think it's unnatural", because what other reason could there be when the religious texts are out of the picture? But we already know that it is not unnatural, in fact we see it in nature all the time amongst other animals.

To me, why this is added to some of the religious text, is for that very reason, some people thought it was "weird", so it had to be wrong. And Im not trying to be a saint here, because I also get thoughts flowing when I see it, because in some cases, seeing a gender take on the role of the opposite one, make them stand out. Which I think is only a natural reaction, especially if you are not used to seeing it. But it also doesn't take long for me, to reach the conclusion that they are doing absolutely nothing wrong and that its me, which have the issue. I think it boils down to the saying that "People fear what they don't understand".

So again, those two people that you reference in the OP chatting about it, are completely ignorant and suffers from the same issue as many religious people do, when they try to justify something from their religious text. Rather than asking the question "Is this actually wrong?" the question turns into "How can I best explain this so the religious text appear reasonable?"

your thoughts on this statement?:
“Homosexuality does not send you to hell,” says Greear. “You know how I know that? Because heterosexuality does not send you to heaven.”

It's a statement based on ignorance and lack of thinking all together.

 

[Brian2]

Greear was the previous SBC president, and Litton is the new president as of last week
it does seem a big deal when you see people at the top of an extremely conservative religious organization sending a message that deviates from the narrative that has been so strongly pushed for decades in Christianity.
could it be a response to their declining numbers ?

It takes being pushed for some people to reconsider their position. Christians can spend years doing and believing the wrong thing until they are led, or pushed closer to what the Lord thinks. Whole congregations can be in the same boat and not even want to listen to other opinions and interpretations. It can take a while to turn a big boat around and head in another direction.
I am not saying that the ways of the world are right but the ways of God's people can also be astray.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I disagree. The fact change is happening is hopeful and exciting, I think.

Nothing happens over night. Baby steps.

What's changing other than they may not hyper focus on homosexuality? That doesn't mean they are changing or accepting it or even tolerating it.
What's changing is they are probably accepting gay marriage is here to stay, so they'll just save condemning homosexuality when they get to other sexual sins and perversions and those who will not inherit the Kingdom.

 

[SigurdReginson]

What's changing other than they may not hyper focus on homosexuality? That doesn't mean they are changing or accepting it or even tolerating it.
What's changing is they are probably accepting gay marriage is here to stay, so they'll just save condemning homosexuality when they get to other sexual sins and perversions and those who will not inherit the Kingdom.

I suppose you're right, but what would you suggest be done about it (realistically)? Nothing that really can be done except to just continue pulling these people into the 21st century kicking and screaming via the natural progress of society, as far as I can tell.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

The problem is, while conservative Christians are insisting their actions are done out of love, for so many of us their "love" looks and feels like hatred.

i have tried to explain that concept to some Christians when they use the “we’re doing it out love” statement, but they cannot comprehend it