Homosexuality / Marriage

[blueman]

Good.


Since we all understand that your version of God is not universally accepted, your position is only valid when the group you are addressing share your views. Picking up a Bible has, unfortunately, not resulted in God speaking to me - about any issue. With no reply from God, ambiguity is a moot point.



You have not EXPLICITY stated that gay partners do not deserve their rights. In posts #34 and #42 you implied very clearly what your position is. You can play semantics all you wish, but you were quite clear on where you stand.



I'm not asking you to agree with that lifestyle. I am only asking you to extend the same rights to gays that the rest of us enjoy.


As I said earlier, offensive statements are not softened by the addition of a smiley icon. I find it condescending to think that we cannot discern the difference.

Thanks,
TVOR

Listen, as I stated before, I've never referred to anyone having their rights infringed upon, gay or not, so please do not put words in my mouth. You have a free will, as others,to choose to believe what you like and I respect that. I am not concerned with other people sharing the same views that I have and I have every right not to share your views. :jiggy:

 

[blueman]

Funny how everything else was just the culture back then, but it's still it's okay to call gays evil. I think the current culture is to be tolerant of everyone else even if you don't agree with them, but that's just me.




I'll put things into a little more context for you, though.

The Bible says not to eat pigs. Christians don't rally for laws against the consumption of pigs. The Bible says slaves are okay, yet there are laws against it. The Bible says it's shameful for a woman to speak in Church- and God forbid she not have her hair covered!- and yet there are no Christians rallying for the complete silence of women in Churches.




All arguments about homosexuality usually fall back onto a religion of some sort. Here in America, it is Christianity, seeing as it is largest religious group (for now at least). Religion and G-d have yet to be fully proved or disproved with no shadow of any doubt, it's a personal choice.

If you don't use religion, which is a very bad thing to base an argument on to begin with, seeing as not everyone is of the same one religious group and even those in a group disagree on certain topics, what have you to say homosexuality is an unnatural and bad and evil thing on?

Could say biology, seeing as males and females have different parts that clearly go together and it's unnatural for two males or two females to be together. But a counter for that is the theory that there might be a homosexuality gene, which is biological too and the fact there are many animals that display homosexual tendencies- monkeys, whales, giraffes, penguins, pigs- all different kinds of animals engage in homosexual sex. In the news recently there were stories about male penguins who would only take male mates. Many think that animals rely only on instinct, so those tendencies must be a natural thing.

To go back to a religious standpoint, no one knows what G-d thinks. You can shove any Holy Book at me and say it's all in there, but did G-d come down and write them itself? No. Humans wrote them. Even if they were inspired by G-d and exactly what he said then, humans translated them and humans changed them, and humans make errors and mistakes. G-d hasn't ordered anyone to make HolyBook v2.0 with all the bugs and mistranslations worked out yet, either.








http://www.truluck.com/html/six_bible_passages.html
This is a very interesting read, also, though I am not sure of it's validity.

Thanks for expounding. As I mentioned earlier, many of these traditional laws and guidelines were ingrained in Jewish culture and there was a tremendous amount of conviction and dependency upon the law during that time. Through Jesus's incarnation, cruxifiction and resurrection, dependency on Christ, rather than an adherence to a rigid and in some instances a discriminatory law, applied. The church had to evolve, mature and grow in a number of areas and that included the disciples and apostles who were leading the churches, some still engrained in the culture they had been brought up in. That is why during the Jesus's cruxifiction, the curtain tore apart in the temple, representing the tearing down of dependency in the law, but faith and trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. We know what God's will is for our lives, by reading the Word of God, written by men who were spiritually ordained by God and some, who had a first hand account or access to people who had a first hand account of God's spirit in the flesh through His Son Jesus Christ. Why would a book that in your opinion was not spiritually ordained by God, have so much staying power and impact on society over the last 2000 years? :jiggy:

 

[jamaesi]

The church had to evolve, mature and grow in a number of areas and that included the disciples and apostles who were leading the churches, some still engrained in the culture they had been brought up in.

There are more verses condemning and putting down women than gays, and yet they have equal rights now. If the Church is evolving, it's funny how they're picking and choosing what to evolve on.

>:{

Why would a book that in your opinion was not spiritually ordained by God, have so much staying power and impact on society over the last 2000 years? :jiggy:

My honest opinion?

Because people are sheep and will tend to believe whatever they are told, especially from a young age. In an unstable world, having the promise of love and eternal life is a very tempting and comforting thing. A lot of religious ideas are made up to explain the unexplainable.

There is is nothing wrong with being religious or nonreligious.


I can't prove G-d doesn't exist.

You can't prove G-d exits.


Because of that, saying "this is the REAL G-d despite there being many others with many other holy books backing them up and this is what the REAL G-d thinks" is silly.





*exits, humming*

o/` Never trust a man who puts his words in the mouth of God and says that it's absolute truth- It's lies and it smells like death... o/`

 

[Seeker of Solomon]

I really liked the letter to Doctor Laura Jamaesi, can you tell me where you got that from so I can quote and use it ?

One of the problems that I have with accepting the argument that homosexuality is simply wrong and evil is that I believe that homosexuality is not a choice. Sure, I think its entirely possible that there are a few exceptions and some people may make a choice, but for the most part, I think people do not choose. I have a girlfriend right now, and when I spend time with her, it makes me very happy. It can almost be compared to love. It just feels right to sit next to her holding hands, head on her shoulder. How can you simply say that those who's sexuality is different than yours should not enjoy that feeling? Should not ever feel love? Essentially what you are saying is that their love is wrong, they should not feel it, they must not act upon those strong feelings, they should never have a partner in life that they are attracted to emotionally and physically, they should suffer through life, alone, in pain, with no one to help them through the world? How can anything that suggests that be correct? I think that everyone should be able to feel love for anyone they want. Isn't one of the Christian ideas that there is someone out there for everyone? A mate put on the earth by God for them? So then why are these people whom have different sexuality left out? Or are they left out? I can't imagine that they would be. I would have to guess that they just have different "soulmates" than us.

One of the reasons that I have not decided upon a religion is the treatment that I have received by different groups. Sure, I felt safe and secure in a church once, praying, singing away my trouble. But then I realized that such a feeling was just me becoming complacent. If you sit in a church with your friends all day, then nothing gets done. I decided that I didn't need the church. I didn't need a God. I would go out, and live my life as well as I could, and try to be a good example to people. I would help others when I could. Thats something that drove me away from the baptist church. I was left out by the other children at youth group and other events. No one wanted to know me, and they made me feel like an outsider. That is what I saw being taught in sunday school. A lack of tolerance for anyone. And I learned to hate that. That seems to go completely against what the church is supposed to stand for and yet.... That is what I have seen in all the churches I have been to... Erm, so that is kinda off topic, but I felt the need to say it lol

 

[Draka]

The main problems against homosexuality are usually religious doctrine based. As the this thread has seemed to highlight. As mentioned before if you take religion out of it there seems to be no arguement against homosexuality in regards to marriage or anything else.

In regards to it destroying the sanctity of marriage, can someone tell me how "John" and "Eric" nextdoor getting married ruins the sanctity of your heterosexual marriage? I have never in my life seen a homosexual person try to "convert" a heterosexual, tell heterosexuals that they think their way of life is perverse, or condemn them to some fiery pit of eternity according to their religious beliefs.

Not all religions have some tenent against homosexuality, in fact very few do. My religion is very accepting of all ways of life and love. "My law is love unto all beings" "Let My worship be in the heart that rejoices, for behold, ALL acts of love and pleasure are My rituals." - excerpts from the Charge of the Goddess and words of the Star Goddess. I just kind of figured others seemed to quoting in here...why not kick in .

 

[Pah]

The sanctity of marriage. There is a sanctity of bread when it symbolizes or becomes the body of Christ. Does selling bread in supermarkets destroy that sanctity? or is it the religious ceremony that gives bread its religious character? Would you favor a "defense of bread" law?

 

[Draka]

The sanctity of marriage. There is a sanctity of bread when it symbolizes or becomes the body of Christ. Does selling bread in supermarkets destroy that sanctity? or is it the religious ceremony that gives bread its religious character? Would you favor a "defense of bread" law?

:biglaugh: Down with Sunbeam and WonderBread! How dare they mass market the sanctity of bread!

 

[Melody]

Because people are sheep and will tend to believe whatever they are told, especially from a young age.

And you were doing so well up to this point. We do not believe because we are mindless followers. I think it's pretty apparent from many of the participants on this forums that we are constantly questioning. To consider us as mindless lemmings shows a lack of respect.

 

[Pah]

And you were doing so well up to this point. We do not believe because we are mindless followers. I think it's pretty apparent from many of the participants on this forums that we are constantly questioning. To consider us as mindless lemmings shows a lack of respect.

I agree in large part with you Melody but the explaintion of your and jamaesi's comment is a good topic for another thread. I had to say that becuase I was about to go into the expaination. Would one of you like to do the honors?

Bob

 

[blueman]

There are more verses condemning and putting down women than gays, and yet they have equal rights now. If the Church is evolving, it's funny how they're picking and choosing what to evolve on.



>:{




My honest opinion?

Because people are sheep and will tend to believe whatever they are told, especially from a young age. In an unstable world, having the promise of love and eternal life is a very tempting and comforting thing. A lot of religious ideas are made up to explain the unexplainable.

There is is nothing wrong with being religious or nonreligious.


I can't prove G-d doesn't exist.

You can't prove G-d exits.


Because of that, saying "this is the REAL G-d despite there being many others with many other holy books backing them up and this is what the REAL G-d thinks" is silly.





*exits, humming*

o/` Never trust a man who puts his words in the mouth of God and says that it's absolute truth- It's lies and it smells like death... o/`

First off, I don't put words in the mouth of God, I point to scripture which is sustaining, contrary to your opinion. I would ask you to objectively look around you to see the depths of the sky, water, mountains and nature to determine if there is validation that there is a God that was and is the master architect of what you see and enjoy each and everyday. Secondly, I never referred to gays as evil, but once again pointing to scripture in regards to that issue. God loves you and wants to have a real and personal relationship with you through His Son, Jesus Christ. He is not some mystical, spiritual energy, power or source, but a real Spiritual Person with a mind and a will. I am not imposing this on you, but want you to know that I may not agree with you about this issue, but love is still extended to you through Christ. Thank you for your feedback.

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

I am Jedi/Jedi Realist.

Homosexuality: a perfectly natural thing, many men in the past practiced it, and some say it is an inborn trait. personally, i dont like it, because im as straight as moleculerally straightened $60,000 paper, but who am i to say who others should love and what they should be able to do?

gay marriage: it should be legal, no matter what some religious zealot has to say

 

[jamaesi]

And you were doing so well up to this point. We do not believe because we are mindless followers. I think it's pretty apparent from many of the participants on this forums that we are constantly questioning. To consider us as mindless lemmings shows a lack of respect.

You're taking offense where I mean none. I was not saying to be religious you'd have to be a mindless lemming; I was saying that in response to why something that was not " spiritually ordained by God" could have so much staying power. I don't, and am sure no one else, really knows if the Bible- or anything else- is exactly now G-d wanted it. In 2,000 years you can have plenty of mistranslations and edits. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

 

[Harmonious]

Ok, I'm working on a research paper for a class in school concerning gay marriage.

Good luck on your paper.

I want to know people's opinions on Homosexuality, gay marriage, and the goverments role in defining marriage. I would really appriciate it if you would take some time to explain your opinions in detail, and perhaps post your religious affiliation so I can better understand your beliefs and why you believe that way. Thanks.

I am an Orthodox Jew. I believe that homosexual sex is forbidden and an abomination. Standing purely by my concept of religion, I think that it would be wrong for two people of the same sex to be romantically involved, and sexually involved would be exponentially worse.

But... I realize that my thoughts and feelings on this matter are based on my religion. I recognize that I have the freedom of religion in this country to live as an Orthodox Jew, which - until the advent of the United States of America - was never a guaranteed thing, anywhere, EVER.

Considering the fact that I appreciate my freedom of religion, I respect the rights of others to not believe in my religion. Therefore, I really don't see my way clear to suggest that homosexuals CAN'T get married or whatever, as my only real objections are completely religious in nature.

Just as I would not want someone else's religion forced on me, I would not want my religious convictions forced on anyone else. While I would personally be against such a thing as homosexual marriage, I can't see a way to legally disallow it.

 

[Harmonious]

Funny how everything else was just the culture back then, but it's still it's okay to call gays evil. I think the current culture is to be tolerant of everyone else even if you don't agree with them, but that's just me.




I'll put things into a little more context for you, though.

Sigh. You quoted the letter.

You know what that means? Now I have to go and ANSWER the QUESTIONS therein.

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that
Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

There would be no place to burn the bulls as a sacrifice, as the Temple is destroyed. So you should not be "burning bulls on an altar as a sacrifice." But the smell would be the same if you had a simple barbeque. And no one gets smited for simply objecting to a smell.

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would
be a fair price for her?

The fact that selling a daughter into slavery involves serious legal ramifications, including giving up rights to call said child a daughter anymore, and the fact that a father who would wish to do such would be forbidden to do so unless they were at a level of poverty that NO ONE in America is familiar with in order for it to be permitted, so that would be one explanation for the fact that this could never happen.

Also, and much more simple and to the point... Slavery is against the law of the land. Owning slaves is not a commandment. The idea is that IF SLAVES ARE OWNED, there are very strict laws for how to treat them. SO... If the law of the land says that slavery is illegal, then Jewish law agrees that slavery is illegal. And therefore, selling your daughter into slavery would be forbidden. So no price would be suggested as fair.

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Unless you are married to her, it really would be irrelevant. If you are taking THESE laws seriously, you should also be taking into account that a man should not casually touch a woman he is not related to, certainly not sexually.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

Because American law forbids slavery. End of story. Not even Mexicans can be owned as slaves. (I know... the whole illegal immigration seems to allow for that type of thing, but ethical living would forbid such things.)

e) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

Unless your neighbor is a Jew, your neighbor has NO obligation to observe the Sabbath whatsoever. Further, it is not up to a neighbor to kill a person who Jewish law says is deserving of the death penalty. Without the Temple and a Sanhedrin in Israel, there is no way an ecclesiastic case can be tried as a capital offense. So no, you are not only NOT OBLIGATED to kill him, you would be ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN to do so.

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination (Lev. 1:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Eating shellfish IS a lesser abomination than homosexuality. First of all, non-Jews are permitted to eat any seafood (or any other animal they wish, as long as it is dead first). So for a non-Jew, it is not at all an abomination. It is only called such a thing if a JEW eats them.

Further, the punishment a Jew would get for such a thing (after due process and whatnot) is lashes. The punishment homosexual sex would get the offenders (after due process, which is INSANELY hard to come by) would be capital punishment and being spiritually cut off from your people in the next world.

Hmm... full permissibility for a non-Jew and lashes for a Jew, death and spiritually cut off. You tell ME which is the lesser abomination.

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Considering that the person involved is most probably NOT a Cohen serving in the Temple, the question is completely irrelevant. If the querent is indeed Jewish, and a Cohen (priest descended from Aaron, Moses' brother), come back and we'll re-evaluate the situation.

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed,including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

NO ONE GETS KILLED FOR CUTTING HAIR! Good golly, what is wrong with you people?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

Last time I checked, regulation footballs are NOT actually made of actual pig leather. But if it is cold, you should wear gloves. Otherwise, don't bother.

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Oy.

First of all, two different crops in the same field is not even forbidden. It is two seeds in the same hole. So there is nothing even forbidden here. Second of all, there is nothing wrong with a cotton/polyester blend, except, perhaps, personal taste. The forbidden combination is linen and wool. And neither of these sins is punishable by death.

I'm sure that the cursing and blaspheming is not precisely what was intended by Jewish law, so no... Further, even if it was, the Temple is destroyed, so no capital offenses can be tried as such. As such, there would be no stoning said people to death.

Good God, you don't burn these people! Certainly not as a "private family affair!" Not even people who sleep with their in-laws get burned, although some people might desire it. So no killing of any of these people.

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan,

Janat

I've answered Janat (and anyone else who is interested) on behalf of Dr. Laura and anyone to whom Biblical law has any meaning.

 

[darkendless]

Religion crushes the rights of homosexuals by refusing them marriage in most countries. Apart from faith, no other substantial arguements have been presented. If we took away the faithfuls right to marriage they'd whinge the house down, so why are they allowed to do it to other groups?

The bible continues to have a negative impact on society, God's people claim the preach love, when in reality their love is conditional. What a sad world we live in.

 

[DallasApple]

What destorys the "sanctity" of marriage is each individual in each individual marriage period..What destroys family values is indivduals who devalue/neglect their family period.

You respect and put priortiy on your marriage and your marriage partner or you dont..You value and are devoted to your family or you arent..Period..

It has nothing to do with what anyone else is doing..

Love

Dallas

 

[The Voice of Reason]

What destorys the "sanctity" of marriage is each individual in each individual marriage period..What destroys family values is indivduals who devalue/neglect their family period.

You repect and put priortiy on your marriage and your marriage partner or you dont..You value and are devoted to your family or you arent..Period..

It has nothing to do with what anyone else is doing..

Love

Dallas

Very well said.