Paraprakrti
Custom User
...and so is incest.
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Homosexuality is found in nature...
- Thread starter Paraprakrti
- Start date
Paraprakrti
Custom User
I just wanted to make sure we all understood that. So we can consider that next time we think of rationalizing homosexuality by saying that it exists in nature. Furthermore, I think that there is something in the body that makes one attracted to incest. People are born incestual (if that's a word), they do not choose to be.
Pah
Uber all member
Paraprakrti said:
It existed in the Bible too. Sooooooo?
You make the mistake of not understanding that we have and are correcting the immorality found in the Bible. You make the mistake of thinking that homosexuality needs rationalizing. Eventually we're gonna correct the Biblical mistake of making homosexuality immoral.
A rather bold and bald assertion you make there.
-pah-
meogi
Well-Known Member
I just want to point this out to people: Incest is not a bad thing. Recessive traits are only passed to the child, if both family members have the same recessive genes (which is usually likely... but not always). You can read up on it... http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00203.htm - here's one article... but there are loads of them out there.
I've never heard of that either... all I can think of is grouping it with homosexuality, pedophilia, etc... which are genetic in origin (normally). But does this help the fight against gay-rights? I wouldn't think so; if you admit that things are genetic in origin, how can you say it is a choice?Paraprakrti said:
linwood
Well-Known Member
Paraprakrti is not serious with the gentic incest opinion.
He/she is trying to catch us in a moral bind by using the same arguments for incest that are used for homosexuality hoping to post an "I told you so" in about 4-5 posts.
His/her miscalculation was that as people who base their morals on whether or not harm is caused in a particular situation the argument won`t work since we probably can`t find incest morally wrong by this standard.
Because we haven`t had our ethics handed to us in a book we are free to discern what is harmful from what isn`t instead of just taking Gods word for it.
Those non-believers who have added to this thread so far anyway.
He/she is trying to catch us in a moral bind by using the same arguments for incest that are used for homosexuality hoping to post an "I told you so" in about 4-5 posts.
His/her miscalculation was that as people who base their morals on whether or not harm is caused in a particular situation the argument won`t work since we probably can`t find incest morally wrong by this standard.
Because we haven`t had our ethics handed to us in a book we are free to discern what is harmful from what isn`t instead of just taking Gods word for it.
Those non-believers who have added to this thread so far anyway.
Paraprakrti
Custom User
linwood said:
I haven't seen evidence to support genetic homosexuality. I have only heard and read things that supposedly claim to have evidence for it. Also, I don't think there is enough research about incestuality. You see, the incestuals are treated worse than the homosexuals. They are more afraid to come out and take a stand against their oppressors. This is why incestuality hasn't been given much thought.
By the way, in nature, the female praying mantis devours the male's head while they are mating. Well ladies, there you go. The perfect reason to go ahead and do what you always wanted to do during sex!
Paraprakrti
Custom User
pah said:
Rationalizing is always necessary for rational creatures.
pah said:
Not really, it just hasn't been researched enough. There isn't as big of an issue with incest as their is with homosexuality. You know, they have an incest survivors support group. They should also have a homosexual survivors support group for those who were raised by homosexual parents.
But it doesn't seem that you could offer any rational grounds for rejecting the evidence for a genetic cause to homosexuality. So, I'm begining to think that perhaps the word that best describes your attitude towards evidence, Paraprakrti, is "irrational".Paraprakrti said:
By the way, would you say that being irrational is more fun than being rational? For one thing, it sure seems less work to be irrational than it does to be rational.
I also think you have made a fundamental error in assuming that the evidence for homosexuality in nature was being presented in support of the notion that since homosexuality is natural it is morally OK. Rather the evidence for homosexuality in nature was being presented as a counter to the claim that homosexuality was "unnatural". The distinction is subtle, but crucial.
Are you speaking from experience here? I mean, do you have experience with both surviving incest and "surviving" homosexual parents --- and thus find yourself in a position to make such a comparison? Or, perhaps you have seen some valid scientific studies that suggest children raised by homosexual parents are prone to the same kinds of trauma as children who are the victims of incest? Is that it?Paraprakrti said:
What is your evidence for such a quaint claim?
Lightkeeper
Well-Known Member
Are you sure incest exists in nature? Other animals don't make judgements about sex with siblings in fact it's one way they procreate. If this wasn't supposed to happen, "God" would have made it impossible to happen.
There is a lot to learn about homosexuality and it is better to do that before passing judgment and making wierd assumptions.
There is a lot to learn about homosexuality and it is better to do that before passing judgment and making wierd assumptions.
meogi
Well-Known Member
Of course! The human genome is still being mapped, studied, and interpreted though. Also, there is no single 'gene' that determines if you have a certain behavior or not. It is usually a combination of themSo nothing is guaranteed at this time.linwood said:
First off: http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/behavior.shtml - General overview of behavioral genetics. There is a link to homosexuality near the bottom, under "Where can I learn more about certain behavioral traits?"
http://www.nuffieldbioethics.org/go/ourwork/behaviouralgenetics/publication_311.html - Chapter 10 of the report (you can download the pdf) discusses sexual orientation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6470698&dopt=Abstract - Preliminary study... on pedophilia.
I guess pedophilia doesn't fall under 'normal sexual behavior' right now though, as it is still listed as a mental disorder. So behavioral genetics hasn't dealt with it much.
But, eh, I guess there is no 'hard' evidence for any of this... it's all just 'educated' speculation still. Until we understand the genome better, the nature vs. nurture debate is never gonna end. I don't know what kind of citations you were looking for linwood, but I hope those 'help.' Please, disregard whatever statements I made about the genetic connection for now. I'll do some more diving later, but right now I'm tired, and have an oral japanese midterm in the morning... good night!
Oh, my statements on incest still stand though.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
ok, some quick facts on incest.
1) first generation insect often produces normal healthy offspring. (no genetic harm)
the problem comes with repeated, cronic inbreeding wich exagerates genetic anomalies.
Examples of this include, white tigers, All purebreed dogs, Hemophilia in the old Russian nobility and the Kentucky 'blue' people.
2) in nature if incest can be avoided it will. Longterm inbreeding is normally the result of a small stressed population, not a healthy one. Look at the lions of the Ngorongoro crater, who are trapped without any additional genetic influx. Thanks to a plague in the 70's All the current lions are the result of only fifteen survivors, wich were the result of a small number of survivors from a previous population drop. One bonus of inbreeding is that the lions are still with us, one down side is that the lions are more prone to disease, which is thier largest limiting factor in the crator, and lower viability in thier sperm counts.
3) Historically incest wasn't always seen as a bad thing. Look at any line of nobility where to keep the 'bloodline pure' they resorted to inbreeding.
4)The problem with incest in society is that it often leads to the sexual abuse of a child by a parent. That is why incest is a problem with humanity, it is usually a form of rape firstly, and incestuous secondly. Homosexuality is not like this, it is the result of two concenting adults being in love. To compair the two shows little understanding of either.
wa:do
1) first generation insect often produces normal healthy offspring. (no genetic harm)
the problem comes with repeated, cronic inbreeding wich exagerates genetic anomalies.
Examples of this include, white tigers, All purebreed dogs, Hemophilia in the old Russian nobility and the Kentucky 'blue' people.
2) in nature if incest can be avoided it will. Longterm inbreeding is normally the result of a small stressed population, not a healthy one. Look at the lions of the Ngorongoro crater, who are trapped without any additional genetic influx. Thanks to a plague in the 70's All the current lions are the result of only fifteen survivors, wich were the result of a small number of survivors from a previous population drop. One bonus of inbreeding is that the lions are still with us, one down side is that the lions are more prone to disease, which is thier largest limiting factor in the crator, and lower viability in thier sperm counts.
3) Historically incest wasn't always seen as a bad thing. Look at any line of nobility where to keep the 'bloodline pure' they resorted to inbreeding.
4)The problem with incest in society is that it often leads to the sexual abuse of a child by a parent. That is why incest is a problem with humanity, it is usually a form of rape firstly, and incestuous secondly. Homosexuality is not like this, it is the result of two concenting adults being in love. To compair the two shows little understanding of either.
wa:do
linwood
Well-Known Member
Paraprakrti said:
You shouldn`t believe everything that you read.
Thats a good point.
Are there any laws that might deter these people from voicing their position?
If there are it could be the reason they fly under the radar as far as legislative politics are concerned.
I wouldn`t want to advocate murder.
Just because something is natural doesn`t mean it is harmless for society.
Thats the end question in this debate and the reason while there will never be an amendment against homosexuality.
because at the end of the day those that promote such an amendment will have to answer the question that no believer has been able to answer so far.
Is there any basis for such an amendment that is not rooted in the Bible or revealed faith?
If those proponents have no answer to that question they cannot achieve their goal.
Feathers in Hair
World's Tallest Hobbit
Paraprakrti, unless you have been a survivor of incestual abuse or such trauma, please don't make such statements. (Edited to tone down tone of post! 
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