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Homosexuality in the Bible

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by linwood, Oct 7, 2004.

  1. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    In some aspects I would say yes. ;)
     
  2. Adstar

    Adstar Active Member

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    No. You are greatly mistaken. My freedom is in Jesus. freedom only comes when one is willing to face anything for the expression of their beliefs. freedom only comes in this world when one does not fear persecution and death.


    And when the day comes when "Ceasar" demands that you receive a mark either in your right hand or your forehead you will obey. You will obey when they tell you to worship the image of the beast won't you?

    I will take my lead from the early Christians who disobeyed ceasar in his demand for them to renounce their faith. They went to the colosseums and where killed for entertainment because they refused ceasers demands.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  3. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    I was wrong to couch my statement in terms of religious thought - it should have been religious expression for that is what is protected by America's "Ceasar". That is a fact of life and you seem to be ungrateful of it

    There is a more direct secular response and that is revolution. I personally find nothing worthy of worship but I will offer my life, as I have in the past, for those that do. I choose revolution over the martyrdom that you speak of in the next quote.

    You wish for the release from the earthly realm to go to the heavenly world. It's a choice before your time. It reminds me of the suicide bomber who will garner 70 virgins.

    You have yet to show that the biblical meaning of homsexuality is as you think it. I don't want to be distracted from the topic of the thread by a discussion on honor.
     
  4. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Misinformation breeds misunderstanding. The most accurate translation to date is not the King James. The King James scholars didn't have access to the manuscripts and other scholarly support work that we have access to today. The most accurate translation to date is the New Revised Standard, followed closely by the New English. both of these versions take advantage of the best scholarship and resource the oldest and most reliable texts. They also attempt to not be colored by denominational or sectarian agenda. Both are "modern" translations.

    Additionally, every person who reads the Bible reads interpretively. That's why it behooves us to take advantage of the best scholarship we have, in order to make an informed interpretation. Variances of language, culure, and history, as well as each individual's internal history, make a surface reading of the words on the page inadequate for purposes of extracting meaning from the text. While your theory is well-intentioned, it is naive, sentimental and pietistic.
     
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  5. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    While I admire your stance on Bible translation, I dissagree with you about the King James being the most accurate. In fact I think it's the least accurate. Your argument for dissmissing other translations applies to the King James version as well. As Sojourner pointed out the King James scholars did not have the type of resources that we possess today. Which made them extremley limited. Especially by todays standards.

    I personally would rather invest my time, energy, study and trust in the Holy Spirit. I would rather follow and trust the Holy Spirit then follow and trust a book that has been in the hands of men.
     
  6. Adstar

    Adstar Active Member

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    The american caesar ? who said i was american anyway? The american caesar has supported the worst dictators in history they recognised Pol Pot the madman who murdered 5 million people, They support the absolute monarchy of saudi arabia. America supporting freedom??? Don't make me laugh, America supports the interests of its business elites my friend, It is a nation ruled by the rich for the rich. Tell me if you can find one congressman who is not a millionaire? America does not establish or protect freedom it supports corrupt government contracts for companies like Halliburton and its military industrial contractors.



    You do not defeat satan by using satans methods. Once you attempt that then you have been defeated by satan. satan wins when you fight him using methods that Jesus told his followers never to use. Revolution is vanity. No one can ever create Gods kingdom on earth by using the sword.




    :)
    Scriptures have been provided that clearly state that a man lies with a man as a man does with a woman is an abomination to God. People who seek to play with words, to change their meaning, to take the sin out of their actions, are decieving themselves and others.

    Leviticus 20
    13 If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

    Abomination is sin

    Ezekiel 18:24
    “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

    Jeremiah 32:35
    And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’

    Deuteronomy 24:4
    then her former husband who divorced her must not take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the LORD, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.


    No amount of "inventive" word interpretation will change the Word of God. The Word will remain solid to the end.


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
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  7. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    Nobody. And nobody cares when what I presented was a concept. But it is definetly off topic to go into the tirade and I do care about that. Please stick to the topic

    Satan doesn't win when I go to war. Satan, like God, doesn't exist. When I win, tyranny is vanquished and the people win and that's even in the face of theocratic tyranny.

    You keep compunding your errors. Before Jesus, there was God in the Old Testament and the sword was quite evident.

    And yet you can not prove, you can not provide the word in the origional language along with its meaning. This is all meaningless babble until you do.

    I'm sure you think so, but the fact is you have not supplied any evidence that what you call the word of God is in fact the Word of God. You have not supplied any evidence that scholars agree with your interpretation. It is a cyclic argument giving no proof what-so-ever when you take your evidence from the English Bible. At least provide the words in question in their original form.


    I give you Lev 20:25 KJV for illustration of the meaning of "abomnation"
    Notice that the abomination is "unclean". I said earlier, I believe, "impure".

    You want to equate what you believe is today's same-sex sex to something as petty as eating an unclean fowl???? Shame on you for your inappropiate emotional reactions.

     
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  8. s2a

    s2a Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator

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    Hello again Evandr2,

    You said:

    Understood. My personal priorities often influence my own prudential replies as well. ;-)

    OK. Is there a lone authoritative body that can definitively make such assessments? To whom, or where does one look to determine which "original" and subsequent "rewritten" translation of Scripture is THE "word of God"?. Named source(s) please.

    Agreed (in principle). Why do you suppose this is so (re: the KJV)? Is this a byproduct of indoctrination, or a result of some revelation of "truth"?

    "Who's to say"? I don't know, but you seem pretty well assured in claiming that: "it [KJV] is the surest collection of documented writings of the prophets of God that we have access to."

    I have "access" to numerous translations of the BIble. Many differ subtly - to significantly - in their "interpretations" of Scripture. Can a (or any) specified/particular version/translation be demonstrably falsified/disproved? If so, by what (or from which) definitively authoritative body/source? ScripturalAuthenticators.org? InerrantSpiritualRevelations.com?

    "Subversion" is a particularly inflammatory accusation. Can you delineate (or list) which translations/versions of Scripture that you consider (as presumably errant) "personal interpretations" that evince/illustrate scriptural "subversions"? What compelling testimony/evidence do you offer in support of such conclusions?

    Perhaps, but the Bible doesn't have to be the starting point - nor a considered and validly relevant reference to any contemporary perspective. Newton was a great published scholar/scientist of his day...but if we exclusively referenced his dated observations today as contemporary (and unmitigated/unexamined) fact/"truth", we'd never have successfully travelled to the planets, or to our own moon (or enjoy DirecTV with TiVo).

    Strangely enough, each "guided" revelation of Scripture seems to be unique to the individual, regardless of any acceptably written "interpretation". Maybe the first step is to get the Holy Ghost working from the same page, every time...;-)

    Which is...which source again?

    OK. How do we objectively test a personal revelation from God and the Holy Spirit (to determine it's accuracy within a personalized revelation/interpretation)? What is the comparative and definitive standard established as a universally applicable baseline measure of unequivocal validity/veracity? Which version/translation of Scripture (available today) gets God's official critical review of "Two (opposable) Thumbs Up"?

    As both an unbeliever and skeptic - and if I'm otherwise willing to accept (on face value) any self-professed/self-attributed claims of piety, belief, faith, and spiritual revelations of God's "Word" and/or "Truth" - then how (or where, or of whom) am I to measure and test such personalized claims in order to ascertain their objective validity and merit?

    If someone claims to be "the greatest major league home-run hitter of recorded history (and modern stats)", there are numerous authoritative and corroborating reference sources I can consult to either substantiate or refute such a claim "beyond a reasonable doubt".

    When a Christian claims to speak/know/understand/interpret their revelation as to the "Word" and "will" of their professed God as "the Truth"; which authoritative and corroborating source(s) should I look to as empirical confirmation beyond a reasonable doubt? Who vouches for that authority and accuracy, and what is/are their credentials as experts?
     
  9. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Two problems with your statement:
    1) The words may clearly state, but the meaning is more obscure and demands deeper research.
    2) We do not "seek to play with words to change their meaning." We seek to provide contextual meaning that pulls us into relevancy with scriptural intention.
     
  10. Adstar

    Adstar Active Member

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    "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink"


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
     
  11. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    First you should make sure that the water is potable...
     
  12. Evandr2

    Evandr2 Member

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    Thank You, your comments have cleared up your intention and I am grateful to have a better understanding of your meaning. I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

    I must concede to your point of view. In order to progress we must seek out and search the best sources of knowledge.

    I believe that there is a lot of information to be had and, unfortunately, for every piece of information you can find someone who will try, right or wrong, to contradict it.

    The point upon which I pivot all that I say is "Do not take the word of man, any man including a real prophet who speaks with real power from a real God without taking what you learn to God for confirmation. It is our right to do so and the Lord delights in confirming truth to our soul.

    I cannot tell you all the times that I have felt the burning in my bosom when the Holy Spirit Speaks and by contrast I have felt the "stupor of thought" when what I have learned is in error.

    So how does one know the difference between what to believe and what not to? There is only one sure way. Direction from the Holy Spirit who will lead a person through the mire of uncertainty and doubt and point out the jewels that are of worth.

    I can't give you a sure knowledge of anything by my words but if what I say has value the Holy Spirit can tell you with certainty if you seek to be humble before God and ask to be shown wisdom.

    I promote the King James version of the Bible. Not so much that because I believe it has all the answers to all our ills, but it does give me something to inquire about when on my knees before my maker.

    The Lord has said that faith without works is dead. If I simply decide to believe in Jesus Christ and then sit back and expect God to do the rest - I believe I would be less than wise - That is my personal opinion and I hope that I have not offended anyone by it.

    Vandr

    P.S. This is great! It is by mature back and forth dialog like this where these forums can really provide rich food for thought. It is clear that personal passion can get in the way of understanding and I am as guilty as any of falling prey to that nasty habit. It never has been, and never will be, my intention to insult or deprive any the right to have their opinions respected, regardless of what that opinion is. Thank You All
     
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  13. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    I am guilty as well. And agree whole heartedly that this type of approach is great. Frubals to you.
     
  14. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I'm not saying that the KJV isn't a great translation -- it is one of the best examples of literature we have. In the end, each individual is responsible for determining what is right or wrong for them. I firmly believe that, if one is in tune with the Holy Spirit, one will receive correct answers to questions -- provided it's something one should know. Sometimes the answer is "not yet."
     
  15. Evandr2

    Evandr2 Member

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    Amen to that my friend.

    Vandr
     
  16. Evandr2

    Evandr2 Member

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    and to you!

    Vandr
     
  17. s2a

    s2a Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator

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    Hello Evandr2,

    When sojourner suggested [to you]:
    You generously offered:
    I must concede to your point of view. In order to progress we must seek out and search the best sources of knowledge.

    How methodologically scientific of you. to lend in perspective. ;-)

    Whilst personal courage may be evidenced upon earnest concession, acknowledgment of error may lend greater meaning in the instruction of others. It's one thing to say "You are right". It's yet another, much bolder step to say, "I was wrong".


    You said:
    The very same ancillary point that I was suggesting you consider. Modern translation/versions of Scripture are arguably "best-intentioned", in that they seek to ideally serve the most accurate and "faithful" transcriptions of ancient tests derived of differing tongues. Are these works manifest of men, or of/from divine inspiration? How does a pious and ardent believer identify the difference?
    As you opine/inquire...

    And so, in essence, there is no universally applicable translation/version of Scripture you can or would claim as THE definitive "Word of God"? Only a personalized revelation (compliments of the Holy Spirit) reveals just which specific translation/version of the Bible is to be construed as inerrant and His "truth"? If I was God, I'd authorize just one biography as inerrantly accurate, and discount the rest as "interpretively" false. But...I ain't God with a good publishing agent.

    Does God challenge His believers in tests of faith? Perhaps those that adhere to a specified version/translation of Scripture are being tested (by means of the Holy Spirit) to open their minds and hearts to another "penultimate", and unequivocally inerrant testimony of His Word?

    Used car salesman says:
    "I can't tell you where the car came from, nor would I testify to it's ultimate reliability, but I believe it's a good car - and with the proper down payment and easy [long] terms, it could be yours today!".

    Um...No Sale
    .

    How come? Shall we blame the salesman, the car for sale, or the skepticism of the prospective buyer in not trusting the claims of salesman, or of the product he's offering?

    I retain neither belief or faith in your God, nor do I hope to receive some "ultimate" payment in full of His promises.

    I do "works" because my conscience and personal values will not abide insouciance and inaction regarding the plights and needs of others.

    In 30+ years of notable observation that your God doesn't do a damn thing about: homeless children; crushing poverty; sustained (and religiously imposed) ignorance and (political/social) oppression, and; preventable disease and starvation.

    If a human were indifferent to such needs and concerns, we would deem them indeed cruel and perhaps, evil. I don't expect your God to to anything, because it's always the most ordinary men and women that make the only palpable difference for change (regardless of their faith, or lack thereof). The only "miracle" I've ever witnessed is in actually getting people to give a damn about their fellow humankind in need.

    What "works" did Jesus preach of most in the NT? Something about the poor...

    What do many prominent self-professed Christians concern themselves with today? Homosexuality in (prospective) marriage, adoptions, and promiscuous "lifestyle"? Was this something that Jesus Himself was overly concerned about? Whom did He condemn, or shun from HIs sight (or salvation) for being queer?

    Sex and violence on TV? Jesus mingled with whores, adulterers, unbelievers, and criminals. Did He seek to amend or censor the laws of Rome, or did He seek to have others look within for change? I recall no metaphorical instructions from Jesus that ever suggested that the world's woes were attributable to either Rome, it's laws, it's violent "games", or homos....

    Matthew 7:12 -
    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."

    Persecution. Judgment. Separation. Condemnation. Hate.

    "...do to others what you would have them do to you..."?

    How coincidental.

    "Do not do unto others what angers you if done to you by others."
    - Isocrates 436-338 BC

    "He should not wish for others that which he doth not wish for himself, nor promise that which he doth not fulfil."
    - The Book of Certitude

    "What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow men. That is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary."
    - The Talmud

    "Hurt not others with that which pains yourself."
    - Udana-Varga

    "This is the sum of duty: do naught to others which if done to thee would cause thee pain."
    - The Mahabharata


    Jesus said [in Matthew 5:21-47]:

    "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.,,anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

    "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.

    You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
    "

    Of course, I could be quoting from an errant translation/version of His Word, which might explain why some Christians utilize their own (as revealed by the Holy Spirit) "interpretive" wisdom in expression and exercise of their faith.

    I know that Christians never claim to be "perfect" (just "forgiven"), but it would be nice to see more of their efforts lent in deference to the teachings of their proclaimed Savior, instead of evincing their own "personal revelation" of "God's Word".
     
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  18. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    While I agree wholeheartedly with the last 5 paragraphs of your post, I don't necessarily agree with how you got there. Refer to the paragraphs I've highlighted in blue. God does work in in the world. God works through the faithful. We are God's hands and feet in the world. And, usually, the most common of us do the most. My denomination (which is small) gave hundreds of thousands of dollars and hours and hours of labor to relief efforts following Katrina. We gave hundreds of thousands of dollars to relief efforts in Sri Lanka following the tsunami. We give hundreds of thousands of dollars per year to world relief and to fight racism and sexism. Habitat for Humanity is largely funded and empowered by religious organizations. Looka t all the good work done by Mother Teresa and her sisters. And these are just a few examples of the millions of dollars and hours of manpower given to world relief on behalf of the Church, who works in God's Name.

    God does care, and God uses God's people to do the work of caring, whether they realize they're being used, or not. If there's caring in the world, it's because of the love of God for God's people, which inspires humanity to do the same.
     
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  19. Jerrell

    Jerrell Active Member

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    Opinion is not over the Bible, stop trying to treat your opinion as if it is in the Holy Sciptures. The BIble is clear on the Subject, Homosexuality is wrong.

    But of course People have their Opinions of It, they will deny what the bilbe said plain and clear...and even blot out some parts of the law...and some of what Paul said...and some of what Jesus said...It's called Selective Christianity, pick and choose what to beleive out of the Bible. Stop lying to yourself and Accept the BIble for What it says.
     
  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    That's the point of these threads. It is your opinion that the bible is plain and clear on the subject of homosexuality being a sin. Not everyone reads the Bible the way you do.
     
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