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Homosexuality in the Bible

Adstar

Active Member
sojourner said:
Why are you only here for those who are willing to hear? If you are, indeed, concerned about the plight of the homosexual's eternal soul, shouldn't you be here for "those who have not heard?"

I understand that the vast majority of this world will reject the truth. I am not here to force anyone to believe anything and neither do i wish to try to force belief. Believe it or not it is not a numbers game. I am here for the last few.

I know that out there some homosexuals will hear. They will hear the truth and be cut to the heart and repent. I willingly face this kind of mockery and abuse by false Christians for there sake. If there is only 1 homosexual that reads this thread and is convinced that their sexual practice is an abomination to God then i will be over the moon with joy.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

Pah

Uber all member
Adstar said:
I understand that the vast majority of this world will reject the truth. I am not here to force anyone to believe anything and neither do i wish to try to force belief. Believe it or not it is not a numbers game. I am here for the last few.

I know that out there some homosexuals will hear. They will hear the truth and be cut to the heart and repent. I willingly face this kind of mockery and abuse by false Christians for there sake. If there is only 1 homosexual that reads this thread and is convinced that their sexual practice is an abomination to God then i will be over the moon with joy.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
I really do applaud your efforts within your circle. My contention is that Biblically based opposition to same-sex marriages or sex is not appropiate to society at large. My contention is also that Biblical interpretation is not consistent from individual believer to individual believer let alone from denomination to denomination. That one interpretation should be society's norm is anathma. Pluralism, the religious state of these states, demands acceptance of all interpretations.

Model your life as close to your conviction as possible. But do not expect other, differing convictions to adopt your interpretations.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Evandr2 said:
The belief that homosexuality is ok in the sight of God because a person that God created is driven to prefer and persue is like saying that bestiality, pedophilia, Sadism, racism, and murder (the list could go on) are also OK because a person takes pleasure in it.

You are right about one thing, God did not call homosexuality evil, He called it an abomination.

The scriptures warn against homosexuality. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is a good example. I bring this into your thinking because of the circumstances that justified its destruction. I suggest that you read Leviticus, the seventeenth and eighteenth chapters, and Deuteronomy 23:17, Romans 1:27, and 1 Corinthians 6:9. Homosexuality is the sin that was most abhorred in the sight of God and which brought down the vengeance of heaven upon Sodom and Gomorrah. This horrific story is one that should strike terror to us as we contemplate that similar things are happening among us today in an even greater degree:

God gave a command. "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination"

What justifies the debate of so plain and straight forward a commandment. It is plain that He is talking of homosexuality and the practice of it. To say "Though shalt not" is to command. An abomination is a sin that brings more than sadness to God toward the sinner, but kindles His anger because of its destructive power. The family is the central theme of the great plan of salvation and homosexuality makes a mockery of it.

1 Corinthians 11:11
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

We must love the sinner but abhor the sin. We cannot condone homosexuality in any fashion. We must seek the help of God to know how to deal with homosexuality and those to which is leading down a most sure path to destruction.

Vandr
www.faithandevidence.com

Levitcus 20: verse 13 " If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

What brought down God's wrath on Sodom and Gomorrah was not homosexuality, per se, but sexual promiscuity and socially unacceptable behavior. Neither of you can disprove that homosexuality was a cultural and not a moral issue for the Biblical writers. The "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" arugment just isn't good enough, especially here. It's thin, at best, and a twisting of meaning, at worst. This issue demands deeper understanding.
 

Adstar

Active Member
Pah said:
I really do applaud your efforts within your circle. My contention is that Biblically based opposition to same-sex marriages or sex is not appropiate to society at large.


Yes that is indeed true for todays society. But we Christians who are in this world should not be conformed to the standards of this world. I disagree with what the "society" deems inappropiate.


My contention is also that Biblical interpretation is not consistent from individual believer to individual believer let alone from denomination to denomination. That one interpretation should be society's norm is anathma. Pluralism, the religious state of these states, demands acceptance of all interpretations.

It is my contention that there is one truth and many false interpretations. That One interpretation is right an proper for follower of the Messiah Jesus and all others are wrong. There is one truth and one way to God. If there are 10,000 different interpretations of the Word then 9,999 of them are wrong.

If a state tried to impose One interpretation then i have no doubt that it would be the wrong one. The kingdoms of this world are not yet the Messiah's kingdom they have another master. So i do not support religion enforced by state power.

There is no way that anyone should be forced to accept anything that they believe is a lie. No matter what the state may demand. Wether the state allows me to express my belief or not makes no difference, As a Christian i must obey Gods call to me.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days




All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

Pah

Uber all member
Adstar said:
...It is my contention that there is one truth and many false interpretations. That One interpretation is right an proper for follower of the Messiah Jesus and all others are wrong. There is one truth and one way to God. If there are 10,000 different interpretations of the Word then 9,999 of them are wrong....
How is one to pick from the 10,000? Your intrepetation? Please..... that would be a misplaced, unfounded arrogance in the sight of God. That you would assume the authority and spokesman of God's word and not bow to God himself is error.

...There is no way that anyone should be forced to accept anything that they believe is a lie. No matter what the state may demand. Wether the state allows me to express my belief or not makes no difference, As a Christian i must obey Gods call to me.
The applicable call is to honor Ceasar. The way to God is through Christ. The words of Jesus commands you to accept the earthly world as ruled by Ceasar.

Are you confusing acceptance and adoption? The "coat" hangs in your closet but you don't have to wear it! Your wife's clothes are (or will/may be) in the same closet. Would you wear those?
 

Adstar

Active Member
Pah said:
How is one to pick from the 10,000? Your intrepetation? Please..... that would be a misplaced, unfounded arrogance in the sight of God. That you would assume the authority and spokesman of God's word and not bow to God himself is error.


I am either right or i am wrong. Either the sexual act of homosexuality is an abomination to God or it is Not an abomination to God, It is either sin or not sin. There is no room for me to say It is a sin and then to turn around and say to those who say it is not a sin that they are also correct. That is madness. There can only be one true position regarding this issue. I certainly do claim to speak for the Word of God as it pertains to this issue. Let others agree or disagree.

The applicable call is to honor Ceasar. The way to God is through Christ. The words of Jesus commands you to accept the earthly world as ruled by Ceasar.

Are you confusing acceptance and adoption? The "coat" hangs in your closet but you don't have to wear it! Your wife's clothes are (or will/may be) in the same closet. Would you wear those?

There has never been a call to honour Caesar. But a call not to resist Caesar, or to seek to overthrow Caesar. The life of Jesus give us a model to go by. Jesus did not resist the authority that executed Him. He went like a lamb to the slaughter. I do not seek to overthrow any Government on earth be they democratic or dictatorships whatever they be. And if the state declares me guilty for standing up for my faith then i will not resist their judgement upon me whatever it may be. The Laws of God are above the laws of caesar and will always be. Where caeser and God are in disagreement i will follow Gods will on the matter regardless of the cost.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

Dentonz

Member
Adstar said:
[/color]

I am either right or i am wrong. Either the sexual act of homosexuality is an abomination to God or it is Not an abomination to God, It is either sin or not sin. There is no room for me to say It is a sin and then to turn around and say to those who say it is not a sin that they are also correct. That is madness. There can only be one true position regarding this issue. I certainly do claim to speak for the Word of God as it pertains to this issue. Let others agree or disagree.



There has never been a call to honour Caesar. But a call not to resist Caesar, or to seek to overthrow Caesar. The life of Jesus give us a model to go by. Jesus did not resist the authority that executed Him. He went like a lamb to the slaughter. I do not seek to overthrow any Government on earth be they democratic or dictatorships whatever they be. And if the state declares me guilty for standing up for my faith then i will not resist their judgement upon me whatever it may be. The Laws of God are above the laws of caesar and will always be. Where caeser and God are in disagreement i will follow Gods will on the matter regardless of the cost.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

It's refreshing to see people that will actually stand up for what they believe nowadays.

May God bless you in Jesus name.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Adstar said:
[/COLOR]

I am either right or i am wrong. Either the sexual act of homosexuality is an abomination to God or it is Not an abomination to God, It is either sin or not sin. There is no room for me to say It is a sin and then to turn around and say to those who say it is not a sin that they are also correct. That is madness. There can only be one true position regarding this issue. I certainly do claim to speak for the Word of God as it pertains to this issue. Let others agree or disagree.
Again, abomination is not sin - it is impurity. Impurity is not sin.

Given your choice for me to pick, you are wrong, it is not an abomination to God in today's term and in todays practise, it is not sin. You leave yourself no room because of ignorance of original scripture. You don't know the word of God and only spout some others interpretation.

You presume to speak for God and yet there was only one other that could. I think that's a profanity to usurp God and his son. You can only rightfully listen to God and not the word adulterated by man.

The plurality that gives you the freedom of religious thought is what gives you room.


There has never been a call to honour Caesar. But a call not to resist Caesar, or to seek to overthrow Caesar. ....
Honor is the paying of an obligation and that is the sense in which taxes are rendered. Laws of Ceasar are honored for you do not live in the kingdom of Christ. When the law of the land denied the criminality of same-sex sexual acts, those acts could no longer be considered sin in the realm in which you live. Honor the laws of Ceasar. When Christ tells you his kingdom is not of this earth, honor the words of Jesus and leave Ceasar his world. I live in Caesar's world and you dishonor me, one of the least of his brethern, thereby dishonoring Jesus.
 

jeffrey

†ßig Dog†
I also believe that what might be a sin for one would not be a sin to another. If God made you a certain way, and for you to go against what you are naturally, to me would be the sin. Be who you are. Be proud of who you are. We are all individuals for a reason. And to say that someone is different then you is sinful, is in itself a sin.
 

Dentonz

Member
sojourner said:
What brought down God's wrath on Sodom and Gomorrah was not homosexuality, per se, but sexual promiscuity and socially unacceptable behavior. Neither of you can disprove that homosexuality was a cultural and not a moral issue for the Biblical writers. The "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" arugment just isn't good enough, especially here. It's thin, at best, and a twisting of meaning, at worst. This issue demands deeper understanding.

So you don't think homosexuality was socially acceptable to the Romans when Paul wrote his letter to them? From what I've read, it was pretty much common place and accepted by just about everyone in Rome. Yet God sought it proper to guide Paul's hand when he wrote "though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. "(Rom. 1:32 ESV) That is exactly why Jesus never mentioned it. Because he only taught the Jews which knew the law. Therefore, when God sent his message to the gentiles who saw sin as common, they had to be told what was acceptable to God and what wasn't. It might not have been culturally acceptable when Leviticus was written, but it definately was at the time of Romans and 1 Cor 6:9 and 1 Tim 1:10.
 

jeffrey

†ßig Dog†
So God moved paul's pen? Well God is typing for me and stating "Don't question what he made and why. "
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
You don't see any pettiness and envy in Paul's faulting the Greeks and Romans for their morals, Dentonz? To me, Paul's behavior looks suspiciously like that of those Muslim clerics of today who castigate the West as decadent -- because they cannot rival it in wealth, power, quality of life, or accomplishment.
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
Dentonz said:
It's refreshing to see people that will actually stand up for what they believe nowadays.

May God bless you in Jesus name.
This works on the other side of the coin as well.
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
Sunstone said:
You don't see any pettiness and envy in Paul's faulting the Greeks and Romans for their morals, Dentonz? To me, Paul's behavior looks suspiciously like that of those Muslim clerics of today who castigate the West as decadent -- because they cannot rival it in wealth, power, quality of life, or accomplishment.
It's seems as though people follow Paul more than they follow Jesus. Maybe they should start praying to Paul.
 

Evandr2

Member
s2a said:
Woohoo!

Perhaps you'll be the first (all others previously entreated have evaded lending any specificity in reply) to name which version/translation of Scripture as THE definitive version. (I can't promise any valued door prize, but you may earn a bit of due credibility and respect in so doing).

By your quoted commentabove , you obviously regard (by amorphous implication) some "older" version of Scripture as [being] definitive and ultimately authoritative.

In order to fairly rebut your faith-based perspective/rationale, it would be only fair (and incumbent upon you) for you to qualify which translation/version (name names please) of the particular BIble you deem as authentic "Scripture".

I hope you won't disappoint, or evade in lending specificity. I just want to insure that we're all playing on the same level field. I anxiously await your declaration/qualification as to which version/translation of Scripture you deem as valid and "true".

If you will, we'll progress from that point...


I apologize for taking so long but I am happy to clarify my stance about New versions of scripture.

Scripture is the word of God so long as it is written and then rewritten correctly.

A person must have a starting point. For a vast number of Christians that point is prayer and the King James Version of the Bible.

Granted, who's to say that this text has not suffered some distortions down through the ages by the hands of it's translators but it is the surest collection of documented writings of the prophets of God that we have access to. The free will of man gives him that right to subvert scripture to fit personal interpretations as evidenced by the numerous re-written interpretations of the Bible floating around the world today, one of which you chose to reference.

But by the same token we have to start somewhere. The versus of the Bible can be confusing enough without the guidance of the spirit. To set aside the Bible for a modern interpretation is to set aside the written word of God as best we have it in the Bible for the wisdom of mortal man.

Thanks but NO-Thanks, If I need interpretations of the written word of God I will let the Holy Ghost impress it upon my heart after I have searched the best source we have.

I believe that no man has the right to re-write the Bible according to their own interpretation. The wisdom of man is just too lacking. To do so is to make a mockery of the word of God. Only by revelation from God can his words be known and then accurately written with truth and power to the world and then only by the mouths of His servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7)
Being worthy of salvation is far too critical a task to be left to the interpretations of mortal man.

Vandr

Its late so I will return tomorrow evening
 
jeffrey said:
I also believe that what might be a sin for one would not be a sin to another. If God made you a certain way, and for you to go against what you are naturally, to me would be the sin. Be who you are. Be proud of who you are. We are all individuals for a reason. And to say that someone is different then you is sinful, is in itself a sin.


This is pretty right...the debate is all about hormone structure. Developmental psychology plays an interesting lesser role although hormone structure is the driving force behind all decisions. Just because many people cannot think of the concept themselves physically does not mean that it might magnetically fit in some others, as the orgasm is an electrical action, as is a brain cell firing. there is a spice from vietnam containing female hormones that if taken by males causes the penile cord to pull back into the anus and the seam to melt open, also much less semen to be made. "mabye they just drank too much spiced cider. " :bonk:
 
Since I didn't mention the Bible enough Leviticus tells us what foods to eat (not insects etc) and the Adventists take this to mean no shellfish, being arthropods themselves, insects from a parallel dimension of less oxygen and more hydrogen. They made no mention of south asian poison wood and spiced cider is traditionally drank at christmas, the center of this "debate" licorice also contains an estrogen isomer, and steroid hormones are common plant alkaloids. Clams are the pinnacle of this quandry, quite androgenous and could serve to at least keep this in a sort of stasis.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Mister_T said:
It's seems as though people follow Paul more than they follow Jesus. Maybe they should start praying to Paul.

Someone once told me Pauline Christianity was a contradiction in terms. Do you think that's right, Mister T?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Dentonz said:
So you don't think homosexuality was socially acceptable to the Romans when Paul wrote his letter to them? From what I've read, it was pretty much common place and accepted by just about everyone in Rome. Yet God sought it proper to guide Paul's hand when he wrote "though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. "(Rom. 1:32 ESV) That is exactly why Jesus never mentioned it. Because he only taught the Jews which knew the law. Therefore, when God sent his message to the gentiles who saw sin as common, they had to be told what was acceptable to God and what wasn't. It might not have been culturally acceptable when Leviticus was written, but it definately was at the time of Romans and 1 Cor 6:9 and 1 Tim 1:10.

Actually, it wasn't acceptable in that culture then, and it's still largely not today. Inthe Middle East there are still remnants of the socio-sexual roles of honor/shame.

Paul wrote out of his own sense of culture. Paul was a Jew and a Pharisee. Because Paul was a Pharisee, religious law and cultural mores were all wrapped up in the same package. Paul, by virtue of who he was, could not segregate the two. Israel was a religious state. The Sanhedrin were religious leaders, as well as civic leaders.

Possibly the gospelers don't have Jesus mention homosexuality because Mark and Q were written to largely Jewish communities, where homosexuality was not prevalent. Paul mentions it because he is a Jew living in cultures where homosexuality is practiced. Being unable to segregate social more from religious righteousness, Paul was compelled to address what he regarded as sin...as sin. so we see how God's truth becomes filtered through the lens of human expectation and experience.
 
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