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Homosexuality and the Church


jeffrey said:
This chapter describes how two angels visited Sodom and were welcomed into Lot’s house. The angels were sent to warn Lot that God was displeased with wickedness of the city’s residents and had decided to destroy the city. The men of the city gathered around the house and demanded that Lot send the strangers to the mob so that they might "know" the angels.
The Hebrew verb which is commonly translated as "know" is yada. Its meaning is ambiguous. It appears 943 times elsewhere in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). In only about a dozen of these cases does it refers to sexual activity - all heterosexual. It is not clear whether the mob wanted to rape the angels or to meet with them, and perhaps attack them physically. Perhaps they were concerned that the strangers were spies who were sent to the city to determine its defensive fortifications. From the context, it is obvious that their mood was not friendly.
Of the 12 times yada appears in Genesis, 10 of them refer to sex. You say that it is "unclear" whether the men wanted to have sex (translated "know" typically in English) with the angels, yet Lot immediately responds to their confrontation by saying, "See now, I have two daughters who have not known (Hebrew yada) a man;" Gen. 19:8. Are you really going to try to claim that these daughters had never been acquainted with any man before? At the very least they were acquainted with one man, their father. The obvious Hebrew meaning of the verse is that they were virgins who had not had sex. How could you possibly claim that yada means one thing in one verse, and then three verses later with no change in context, claim it means something else? It is obvious that the men had sexual intentions, and were referring to having sex with the angels.

FerventGodSeeker
 
jeffrey said:
FerventGodSeeker said:

By useing your own reasoning, then wearing clothing made from more then 1 type of fiber is on a par with homosexuality. Check the tag on your shirt. Me thinks it's a good bet you be sinning. ;)


Let me check: "Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor theives, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Cor. 6:9 I'm not seeing "people who wear clothing made from one than one type of fiber" on that list. Yet that was the verse I was referring to...so how did you get such an idea "by using my own reasoning"?

FerventGodSeeker
 

jeffrey

†ßig Dog†
FerventGodSeeker said:
jeffrey said:
Of the 12 times yada appears in Genesis, 12 of them refer to sex. You say that it is "unclear" whether the men wanted to have sex (translated "know" typically in English) with the angels, yet Lot immediately responds to their confrontation by saying, "See now, I have two daughters who have not known (Hebrew yada) a man;" Gen. 19:8. Are you really going to try to claim that these daughters had never been acquainted with any man before? At the very least they were acquainted with one man, their father. The obvious Hebrew meaning of the verse is that they were virgins who had not had sex. How could you possibly claim that yada means one thing in one verse, and then three verses later with no change in context, claim it means something else? It is obvious that the men had sexual intentions, and were referring to having sex with the angels.

FerventGodSeeker
It apperars, yada, 943 times in scripture. It's obvious it is NOT about homosexuality. It's obvious you chose to pick and chose which parts of the bible you want to believe and trash the rest.
 

jeffrey

†ßig Dog†
FerventGodSeeker said:
jeffrey said:
Let me check: "Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor theives, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Cor. 6:9 I'm not seeing "people who wear clothing made from one than one type of fiber" on that list. Yet that was the verse I was referring to...so how did you get such an idea "by using my own reasoning"?

FerventGodSeeker
Qouting Paul. Please quote Jesus saying someting like that... But wait... He didn't! He talked about, for one, the sin of remarrying, which you choose to ignore. The ot called it an Abomination. Along with wearing clothes with only 1 fiber, which you choose to ignore.
 

pdoel

Active Member
Jerrell said:
I am already saved. I cannot be Re-saved. I am in God's Grace that is how i overcame my sin. By his grace. Now i would rather that you overcome your sin, cause in the Name of Jesus you can do all things.

Hmmm. So you are trying to tell me that you are already saved, that you have overcome your sin, and will sin no more?

Wow. Congrats. You are officially, the only human in the existence of the species (including Christ himself) to do this. Congrats. I applaud you.

(Is sarcasm a sin?)

:biglaugh:
 

jeffrey

†ßig Dog†
pdoel said:
Hmmm. So you are trying to tell me that you are already saved, that you have overcome your sin, and will sin no more?

Wow. Congrats. You are officially, the only human in the existence of the species (including Christ himself) to do this. Congrats. I applaud you.

(Is sarcasm a sin?)

:biglaugh:
If it is, we both are going to hell!
devil-smiley-029.gif
 

pdoel

Active Member
Amen Jeffrey! LOL

Just to expand a little more (a bit more seriously) on Jerrell's comments. Jerrell, you have stated that you are saved, and cannot be re-saved. That you are in God's grace because you have been saved, and that you have no overcome sin.

Well, I could say the same. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior. I have opened my heart to Christ. I have been filled with the Holy Spirit. I feel that I am doing God's work. I feel that I too, have been saved. I have overcome the burden of sin, and I know that I have been forgiven by God.

That, however, does not mean that I'm done. Just because you accept Jesus Christ and feel "Saved", does not mean you don't continue to Sin. If so, then this whole argument is mute.

If that were the case, then it would make no difference what my sexual orientation is, because I too have been saved.

You continue to tell me to do things (listen to my heart, listen to the Lord, etc.) which are all things that I have already done. Just because I have been given a different path in life than you have, does not mean I am any less saved. I don't understand why you feel that you are above sin, but others are not. Trying to say that's true, is quite simply, a contridiction.
 

jeffrey said:

It apperars, yada, 943 times in scripture. It's obvious it is NOT about homosexuality. It's obvious you chose to pick and chose which parts of the bible you want to believe and trash the rest.


I hope you understand that context is important when understanding a Scripture. The same guy did not write all of the Old Testament. Thus, it is also valid to look at words usage by individual authors, and in the context of individual books. Of the 12 times the author of Genesis uses yada, 10 of them refer to sex. Based on the context, "know" in Gen. 19 is an obvious sexual references, as seen from Lot's daughters who had "not known a man". Unless you're going to claim that they had never spoken to any man before or gotten to know one, then your claim as to the meaning of yada is moot. We know they were acquainted with at least one man, their father.

FerventGodSeeker

 

pdoel

Active Member
FerventGodSeeker,

I hope your ability to translate the Bible is better than your ability to quote messages.
 


jeffrey said:
Qouting Paul.​

Yes, so what? He is an Apostle, I would assume he has something worthwhile to say, especially considering that the majority of the New Testament is authored by him (Of the 27 New Testament books, Paul wrote 13 of them, and 14 if you count Hebrews. John comes in second, with 5 books to his name). In Christianity, certain parts of the Bible aren't more or less inspired than other parts. All Scripture is God-breathed and true. If Paul says such people won't inherit the kingdom of God, then a Christian can be confident in faith that they will not.


Please quote Jesus saying someting like that... But wait... He didn't! He talked about, for one, the sin of remarrying, which you choose to ignore. The ot called it an Abomination. Along with wearing clothes with only 1 fiber, which you choose to ignore.


Jesus referred to the sin of remarraige after divorce. The Catholic Church also opposes such unions, because the Catholic Church, if you weren't aware, opposes divorce. Remarrying after an anullment is not a sin, because an annulled marraige is a marriage which was never valid in the first place. Please show me where the Old Testament says that wearing clothes made of only one fiber is an abomination. I can't find it. The closest thing I could find relating to garments that the Old Testament calls an abomination is: "A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the LORD your God." Deuteronomy 22:5 If there was an Old Testament law stating that one should not wear clothes of only one fiber, such laws relating to Jewish custom are known as ceremonial laws in Christianity, which were abolished by Christ's resurrection. Moral laws of the Old Testament (don't lie, don't steal, etc), particularly if they are reiterated in the New Testament, are followed by the Church today.

FerventGodSeeker


 
pdoel said:
FerventGodSeeker,

I hope your ability to translate the Bible is better than your ability to quote messages.


Sorry about that (if there was an embarrassed smiley I would put it here, lol), but I think (or at least hope) that you get my point.

FerventGodSeeker
 

jeffrey

†ßig Dog†
FerventGodSeeker said:



Yes, so what? He is an Apostle, I would assume he has something worthwhile to say, especially considering that the majority of the New Testament is authored by him (Of the 27 New Testament books, Paul wrote 13 of them, and 14 if you count Hebrews. John comes in second, with 5 books to his name). In Christianity, certain parts of the Bible aren't more or less inspired than other parts. All Scripture is God-breathed and true. If Paul says such people won't inherit the kingdom of God, then a Christian can be confident in faith that they will not.





Jesus referred to the sin of remarraige after divorce. The Catholic Church also opposes such unions, because the Catholic Church, if you weren't aware, opposes divorce. Remarrying after an anullment is not a sin, because an annulled marraige is a marriage which was never valid in the first place. Please show me where the Old Testament says that wearing clothes made of only one fiber is an abomination. I can't find it. The closest thing I could find relating to garments that the Old Testament calls an abomination is: "A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the LORD your God." Deuteronomy 22:5 If there was an Old Testament law stating that one should not wear clothes of only one fiber, such laws relating to Jewish custom are known as ceremonial laws in Christianity, which were abolished by Christ's resurrection. Moral laws of the Old Testament (don't lie, don't steal, etc), particularly if they are reiterated in the New Testament, are followed by the Church today.

FerventGodSeeker


Never ceases to amaze me the people that pick and choose which parts to believe and the spin they put on things. Where did Christ say it was ok after an anullment? I can't seem to find that.
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
FerventGodSeeker said:



Sorry about that (if there was an embarrassed smiley I would put it here, lol), but I think (or at least hope) that you get my point.

FerventGodSeeker

I think you're doing quite a good job, especially since we don't have an 'FAQ' up yet for such things!
 

jeffrey

†ßig Dog†
19:1
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

19:2
Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.

19:3
Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

19:4
Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.

19:5
And if ye offer a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, ye shall offer it at your own will.

19:6
It shall be eaten the same day ye offer it, and on the morrow: and if ought remain until the third day, it shall be burnt in the fire.

19:7
And if it be eaten at all on the third day, it is abominable; it shall not be accepted.

19:8
Therefore every one that eateth it shall bear his iniquity, because he hath profaned the hallowed thing of the LORD: and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

19:9
And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.

19:10
And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.

19:11
Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.

19:12
And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

19:13
Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

19:14
Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.

19:15
Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

19:16
Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour; I am the LORD.

19:17
Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

19:18
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

19:19
Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.
19:20
And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

19:21
And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering.

19:22
And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.

19:23
And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten of.

19:24
But in the fourth year all the fruit thereof shall be holy to praise the LORD withal.

19:25
And in the fifth year shall ye eat of the fruit thereof, that it may yield unto you the increase thereof: I am the LORD your God.

19:26
Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.

19:27
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
19:28
Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

19:29
Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.

19:30
Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

19:31
Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

19:32
Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head, and honour the face of the old man, and fear thy God: I am the LORD.

19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.

19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

19:35
Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.

19:36
Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.

19:37
Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the LORD.
 

SunMessenger

Catholic
'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.

Our Beloved Holy Mother whose message comes with the Sun expresses ," We in heaven love the sinner, it is the sin that We detest. To be forgiven of any sin you must first forgive all others for all bad deeds done to you. To reach your reward you must forgive the worst of atrocities and your forgiveness from the Father is immediate. Ask Jesus to give to you and be sincere in all you do from now until We greet you again. " Our Holy Mother is beautiful and warm . She is not God. She comes as an Angel to show us the brightness of good... Thank You...
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
Was Jeus gay?
Was Jesus heterosexual? I don't recall him having sex at all. Next argument please.


It seems today when someone doesn't agree with what Paul, or John or Peter wrote they'll ignore those parts of the BIble and make up some excuse.
It seems that when other parts of the NT conflict with a CLEAR teaching of Christ, that finger pointers fall back on the above mentioned to justify their finger pointing. All while ignoring or twisting blatent, clear-cut passages in which Jesus condemns their actions

There is no such thing as "can't" change.
Who says? You? A human who is knows no more about God than anybody else? You're still turning a deaf ear to those who've said they've tried really hard not be gay.

Have you ever heard the story of a Practiing homosexual who was VERY deep into the practice...he was claled to God. He gave up homosexulity and came to GOd. He is now a Preacher.
I've heard stories like this. Some people change. But like I keep pointing out, there are people who've ferventley prayed and tried to no avail.

If you ask God for anything he will give it to you.
And people have asked. But you then said
Maybe God is not hearing you, there ARE MANY reasons God will not hear a prayer
That's a cop out. And those passages you mentioned have nothing to do with God not answering prayer.
Maybe God is not hearing you, there ARE MANY reasons God will not hear a prayer.

You are to rule over your flesh not the flesh over you
So you're implying that these people want to be gay even though they said they really didn't want to and they've tried not to?

Crap! Reading all of the anti-gay propaganda and negetivity that I've seen thrown at them sure does make me want to be gay! I think I'll start tomorrow.

**IMPORANT**I am not judging, I am stating that Homosexuality is sin,
Great. Please refer back to this:
Matthew 23; 13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c]
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel"

Did you read that part about teachers of the law? Jesus made 2 distinctions: Pharisee's AND teachers of the law. And he said woe to both of them.

and The Two cannot go together inside Christianity no matter what excuses you come up with
Neither can your actions. No matter what excuse you present.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineSt...+5:30&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1
There's a difference between you and the speaker: The speaker is Jesus the Son of God. He crated us and the universe and is perfect. Therefore, he has every right to judge and condemn since he is the giver of life. You on the other hand are a mere human...just like the rest of us. In other words, you're not Jesus.

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Jesus was not refering to pointing out others sins to them. He was refering to the people he was teaching at the feast of the tabernacle. He was telling them not to judge HIM by his apperance. He was telling them to make a righteous judgment about his character as to whether or not he was the Son of God like he claimed. He said nothing about judging people and pointing their sins out to them.

Not to mention you contradicted yourself by saying this earlier:
I am not judging, I am stating that Homosexuality is sin
and then said this :
I do not judge according to appearance but to the readiness of the Spirit, homosexuality is flesh and is in the way of the SPirit
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
FerventGodSeeker said:



Sorry about that (if there was an embarrassed smiley I would put it here, lol), but I think (or at least hope) that you get my point.

FerventGodSeeker

Don't worry about it. There's nothing to be embarrased about. Everyone makes mistakes on here. ;)
 

jeffrey said:
Never ceases to amaze me the people that pick and choose which parts to believe and the spin they put on things.
What, you mean like trying to pretend like the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality as a sin and jumping through hoops to make Scripture say anything but that? I know, it gets really annoying.;)

Where did Christ say it was ok after an anullment? I can't seem to find that.
Why does Christ specifically have to say something in the Bible for it to be true? Christ didn't mention anything about gravity, but I assume you believe in that, no?
The fact that marraige is acceptable after an annulment is logical based on the definition of annulment and the conditions that must be met for one to take place. A marraige is annulled when the union was never valid and the couple shouldn't have been married in the first place. This is not the same as divorce, which is the cessation of a marriage that was valid. Since the persons in an annulled marraige were never validly married in the first place, it is perfectly acceptable for them to get married validly, since this wouldn't be "re-marriage" from a divorce.

FerventGodSeeker
 

jeffrey said:
19:1
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,


19:7
And if it be eaten at all on the third day, it is abominable; it shall not be accepted.


19:19
Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

Thanks for the references. As you can see, eating sacrificial meat on a certain day is what God considered to be an abomination. Twelve verses later, wearing garments made of both linen and wool comes up, but it does not say you are an abomination if you wear such a thing. That was why I couldn't find the reference when I searched for passages about "abomination". Also, please note that this passage says that the Jews were not to wear a garment made of both linen and wool. This is not the same as saying that they could only wear garments made of one type of material, as linen and wool are specific types of material and other mixtures of fabric are not addressed. You said I was probably violating this law earlier, but even though the verse does not apply to New Testament Christians, I checked anyway...my shirt is 100% cotton. ;)

FerventGodSeeker
 
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