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Homosexuality and the Bible...

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by desi, Dec 13, 2004.

  1. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Oh, He was revolutionary for His time. He was considered one of the most liberal. At the same time, though, His teachings are some of the most conservative. Often they're not adhered to correcty these days. Much of our political unrest is a result of this inability to understand the true nature of Christ's teachings.
     
  2. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 5:18-20
    "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Call it what you will but either way one thing it truly is is unclear.

    He says one thing..then another.


    Perhaps you can help me with this because admittedly it is something I have struggled to understand.
    I believe I can grasp it if only someone can tell me ..By what standard is it decided which laws are ceremonial and which laws are moral?
    Once I have a clear standard by which to judge I can figure it out.

    Can you give me the standard by which you judge moral from ceremonial law?



    Please tell me the standard you use to tell that Murder is a moral sin but poor finger hygiene is not.
    What steadfast rule guides you to the knowledge that Adam did not sin by partaking of the apple but Eve did by giving it to him.

    How do you know which laws to follow and which to ignore?

    It would seem to me that much of our political unrest is the result of believing Jesus has a part in our governmental process.
     
  3. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    1) I fail to see the contradiction you hint at in the first scripture. Christ fulfilled what He fulfilled and did not fulfill what He did not fulifill (like homsexuality being wrong). Not one jot nor one tittle will pass until it is all fulfilled. You put it better than I did originally. Thank you. You must be more righteous than the Pharisees because their righteousness was a forced righteousness that was not what was in their hearts. you must live all the law like they did, but for the right reasons.

    2) It's quite simple. If it is in the ten commandments it is a moral law. If not then it is ceremonial. Homosexuality is in the ten commandments, by the way. Adultery originally is defined as sexual relationships outside of marriage. Any homosexual relationship is outside of marriage, as is any premarital sexual relationship (a.k.a. fornication).

    3) a- It isn't poor hygeine that that law addressed. You could have sandblasted and boiled your hands before you sat down to dinner, but you must ceremoniously dip your fingers in the bowl before touching food. It has no temporal significance whatsoever. It was purely ceremonial.
    b- The proper nomenclature is paramount in a discussion such as this. The sin was with neither of them. They both transgressed. There is a marked difference between the two words, but most don't pay enough attention, and that's where the misunderstandings take place. The scriptures say transgression, not sin; and an understanding of the difference will guide you in making that classification.
    c- All the laws must be followed, but how to classify the type of disobedience undertaken is important in the repentence process.

    4) How many people do you know that make political decisions because of their faith? God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts.
     
  4. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    And you will continue to do so and i will continue to see it and we`ll go nowhere.
    It`s not the point anyway, the next question is the point.

    Thank you..Thank You..Thank You..
    You my friend are the first believer who has ever given me a standard by which to measure moral laws.
    You`re right..it is quite simple, I don`t know why I never got one before.

    So you`re saying the moral law is the only law a Christian required to obey and that the moral laws reside in Exodus 20:1-17.

    I can accept that, but first you`ll have to tell me by what standard you`ve decided to obey only the first ten commandments starting at Exodus 20.

    How has it been decided to only obey say..Exodus 20:17 but not Exodus21:27 or 21:28?

    What standard shows the first 17 verses in Exodus 21 to be important compared to the later verses that are apparently unimportant for a Christian?

    I`m confused again.
    Which laws do you mean?
    The first ten in Exodus 20 as you just said or ALL the laws?

    How is the classification of disobedience decided?


    I cannot begin to count, I know many people whose faith is an important part of their political views and decisions.
     
  5. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    The Ten Commandments were to be the eternal principles that would forever guide the nation of Israel. They were literally carved in stone. They are encompassed in the two great commandments laid out by Christ, namely, love thy God with all thy heart, might, mind and strength; and love thy neighboor as thyself. The ten commandments all have to do with righteousness in correlation with our relationships with each other and with God. The others were of a temporal nature and dealt mainly with societal responsibilities and the administration of ceremony. I assume Exodus 21:27 was just an arbitrary example, but the rest of the scriptures in Exodus point out how to punish different degrees of crimes, the morality of which is already established in the Ten Commandments.

    Now, when Christ came He did away with much of that. The Sermon on the Mount contains numerous examples of Christ saying (in affect), "This is how they used to do it, and this is how I want you to do it." Those are the facets of the Mosaic Law that are no longer applicable. Christ gave us a new set of guidelines by which to interpret the Ten Commandments. Instead of loving God and hating our enemies it was time to love our enemies as well, and even pray for them. That is one law which has gone completely ignored in the mainstream Christian world today. The Mosiac law said, "Thou shalt not commit adultery," and Christ says, "Whosoever looketh upon a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery already with her in his heart." He brings the higher law so we can become perfect, as God is perfect (another commandment, albeit ignored even more than the other). Paul points out that the Mosiac law was the schoolmaster to help us get to the point where the higher law could be lived. The Israelites were going to be offered it, but they were wicked and the Lord gave them the preparatory law instead.
     
  6. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Please be patient with me, this is not an easy thing to clarify for someone who has been told at least a dozen different versions of the same story.

    With the comment "They were literally carved in stone." I am taking your definition of the commandments to be those laid out in Exodus 34.

    If this is wrong please tell me where I can find what is actually written on these stone tablets

    I understand that but where does he specify which commandments are to be held and in what ways?
     
  7. Shane H.

    Shane H. New Member

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    You guys are answering your question about this subject when you respond.

    Q: People that practice/are insert bad practice here claim to be Christian but the bible condemns insert bad practice here. What do you think about it?

    A: Everytime you guys ask this type of question, you answer it. Think about it guys, these people are CLAIMING to be Christian. They may not realize they're not, but, THEY'RE NOT! So my point is that WHAT I THINK ABOUT IT, is that we need to understand they are not Christian, and not let what they say about being Christian, mislead us.

    I'll go ahead and say that I'm not Christian. I believe in only one God. I believe Jesus died on the cross so that man can have everlasting life. I go to church. But these things don't make me a Christian. I'll be a Christian once I'm saved of course. These people, whatever sinful act they are practicing, may have been saved thinking that once you've been cleansed, that you can run wild with sin, but you simply can't do that. And they may think that all you have to do is believe in order to go to Heaven. It's about 100% commitment, unconditional love, and a devoted heart, mind, strength, and soul for the 1 and only Jesus Christ our Savior.

    AND THAT'S MY OPINION
     
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  8. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    The Ten Commandments are originally laid out in Exodus 20:3-17. Exodus 34 is when the Lord made more stones because the first were destroyed. The Ten Commandments are as follows:

    1- Thou shalt have no other gods before me
    2- Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
    3- Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
    4- Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy
    5- Honor thy father and thy mother
    6- Thou shalt not kill
    7- Thou shalt not commit adultery
    8- Thou shalt not steal
    9- Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
    10- Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house...wife...yada, yada, yada.

    The most closely tied to morality are numbers five through ten, for they deal with our relationship with each other. People may argue that the ones preceding five deal with our relationship with God and are less moral than just religious responsibilities, but I find them to be moral laws.

    The other commandments given in the rest of the books of Moses are basically expounding upon the nuances of these commandments.

    Your second question is where Christianity tends to find difficulty in reaching a conclusion. The rest of the Bible is replete with new commandments and old ones done away, but many people argue with much of the logic leading up to these conclusions. For example, many argue that neither Christ nor His apostles said anything about tithing, so it should be ignored all together. Others point out that Jesus told the Pharisees not to forget to pay their tithing, hence His endorsment of tithing as a principle. The problem lies in the fact that there is no completely comprehensive collection of writings of His teachings. John himself said the world could not hold them, so mainstream Christianity is at a loss to explain which laws remain and which are done away. Seventh Day Adventists argue that the Sabbath should still be Saturday, as Sunday is never declared in the N.T. as the new Sabbath. Others argue that Paul points out that their meetings and sacraments were held on Sundays.

    There is a lot of argument, but this is the reason God sent Apostles in the first place. No one can claim to know for sure what the doctrine is unless God has spoken to them, and no one these days really claims to have that authority (the Priesthood). Apostles and prophets do in fact walk the earth and Christ's teachings are made clear in our own day, but most people don't want to believe it because it means they have to change what they have been practicing.
     
  9. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    So you say but I can find no where in Biblical scripture where it states these laws are what was carved into the tablets.

    Can you point me in the right direction?

    Not to mention the fact that they have no good reason to believe these people are prophets with Gods word.

    Do you know of any of these prophets and if so...who are they?
     
  10. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    The first verse of Exodus 34 talks of rewriting the commandments that were on the first, but that were broken. Verse four talks of Moses having hewn the stones and then God reviews the commandments. Verse 28 calls them the ten commandments, and tells us they were written on the stones.

    Let me answer your question about prophets with a question. How does the Bible tell us to verify the authenticity of a prophet's claim?
     
  11. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Yes but no where can I find exactly "What" was written on those tablets.
    Verse 1 says they are the same as the first tablets but I don`t see where it says what was on the first tablets.
    Verse 28 does indeed call them the ten Commandments but still does not say "What" those particular commandments are.
    How do you know exactly which ten commandments were written on the tablets?

    Wild guess.

    Mathew.... "ye know them by their fruits"

    Of course there are other verses that define different ways to determine a false prophet.

    Depending upon which Bible you read at times.
     
  12. retrorich

    retrorich SUPER NOT-A-MOD

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    Why are Christians so preoccupied with homosexuality? Could it be that many of them are "in the closet" themselves? Didn't Shakespeare say something about "protesting too much"?

    What do you think, desi?
     
  13. retrorich

    retrorich SUPER NOT-A-MOD

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    Well said! Frubals for you.
     
  14. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    This seems to be a constant misunderstanding. First, there is a big difference between loving someone and condoning their actions. I love my brother unconditionally, even if I don't agree with some of the things he has done. That's the love that God feels for everyone, but it in no way means He approves of our decisions. That argument is incredibly weak and people like it only because it sounds righteous.

    Secondly, Linwood, the bible says He would write on the second tablets the same thing He wrote on the first.
     
  15. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason Doctor of Thinkology

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    Good point, Retrorich. If I had to guess, I'd say that it was somewhere around the 10% mark - just like the rest of the population. Of course, it could be higher, but who knows for certain?

    TVOR
     
  16. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    While it seems that t3gah put a lot of work into the preceding posts, I wonder what the relevence is to homosexuality?

    I also wonder why a link was not provided to the previous posting that was on another board.

    Bob
     
  17. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    It seems these words were originally provided by Joltz (Member # 2232), Greekcity Chat Discussion, 29 August, 2004 02:44 PM: - are you the same individual, t3gah?
     
  18. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Yes..I know but where does it state what he wrote on the first tablets?

    Thats my question...for the past 6-8 posts.
     
  19. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

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    Are you suggesting linwood, that there might be differences between what was written on the first set of tablets and what was written on the second?
     
  20. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason Doctor of Thinkology

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    Fluffy -
    I think Linwood has spent the last two or three pages trying to find where (in the Bible) it says that these particular commandments are any more special than the others. He is getting everything except a straight answer.

    TVOR
     
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