Homosexuality and religious.

[Trailblazer]

homosexuality causes no demonstrable harm.

But that does not mean that it causes no harm.

 

[danieldemol]

Nobody knows what the UHJ is going to rule on until they rule on it. There is no future Baha'i society yet.
Of course, what I think as a Baha'i is of little relevance....

That's all the more reason it makes sense to demand that they make those rulings now whilst they face sufficient pressure from the non-indoctrinated to make for a fairer Baha'i society rather than just letting it slide and staying active, and letting them keep on indoctrinating your children where applicable.

After all by leaving it up to a future indoctrinated bunch of zealots you increase the likelihood of a harder less fair interpretation.

So I think that a degree of responsibility falls on the shoulders of current Baha'i to stand up for hypothetical future generations of Baha'i in demanding fairer interpretations now while they have a chance of being implemented.

In my opinion.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Im not arguing with you. I told you that I believe what God says not you or people. If you can’t accept there’s a God that’s just bad luck. You go your way and I’ll go mine.

Yet, you claim you "believe what God says not you or people." But what ever, in all of human history, in anything that you can find, anywhere, anytime, was something that "God said." that was not, in fact, conveyed by "people?"

And when you realize that, you only have to prove that every one of those people who told you "what God said" wasn't fibbing, didn't have their own agenda, weren't nuts, and actually have evidence for their claim.

Guess what -- you'll never find one.

Yes, you believe it. But that's you. Your belief is no more proof of truth than mine.

 

[Dawnofhope]

After all by leaving it up to a future indoctrinated bunch of zealots you increase the likelihood of a harder less fair interpretation.

Why would the Baha'is of the future become an 'indoctrinated bunch of zealots'?

 

[danieldemol]

But that does not mean that it causes no harm.

But we shouldn't harm people for doing no demonstrable harm as a principle, because to do so opens the door to harm people on the basis of superstition, and then why stop there? If we are going to harm people on the basis of alleged spiritual harm why not harm Baha'i for the alleged spiritual harm they do to Islamic society for instance?

If you are going to open the door to harming people on the basis of things which cause no demonstrable harm you are on the slippery road to hell on earth.

In my opinion.

 

[PruePhillip]

But your argument is nonsense. people don't say that.
You are just making stuff up.

I ask the question, 'One day would it be possible for a grown man to marry two 12 year olds, a boy and a girl, for a weekend only marriage?' and responders will say 'It will never happen because it's against the law.'
But I put it to you that this COULD HAPPEN BECAUSE A FUTURE SOCIETY COULD CHANGE THE LAWS.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yet, you claim you "believe what God says not you or people." But what ever, in all of human history, in anything that you can find, anywhere, anytime, was something that "God said." that was not, in fact, conveyed by "people?"

And when you realize that, you only have to prove that every one of those people who told you "what God said" wasn't fibbing, didn't have their own agenda, weren't nuts, and actually have evidence for their claim.

Guess what -- you'll never find one.

Yes, you believe it. But that's you. Your belief is no more proof of truth than mine.

Yes that’s correct and true that God has always used human beings to communicate His Messages to us because we are human and only understand human sentiments, emotions and values, so God uses the human medium. If you look at the lives of the Great Prophets, They accepted stoning, exile, imprisonment, poverty and crucifixion and had no interest in worldly possessions or power. They called people to a virtuous and spiritual life, to love one another, help the poor and improve their conduct. Their only reward was humanity’s cruelty and torture and the persecution of their followers. Eventually, through Their Words alone, born of the power of God’s Spirit, They subdued all humanity. Thousands of years after Their death they still win the hearts and souls of billions. None can achieve this except a power from God. Let those who disbelieve attempt to equal Their achievement of conquering with Words alone, the hearts against the cruelest forms of opposition, penniless and powerless except for a handful of insignificant followers.

This explanation by Baha’u’llah makes perfect sense to me regarding God using human beings to communicate with us.

In every world, He appears according to the capacity of that world. For example, in the world of spirits He manifests Himself to them and appears unto them with the signs of the Spirit. So, likewise, in bodies in the world of names and attributes; and in the worlds which are not known to any save God. All of these worlds have their position from this Manifestation. He appears unto them in His Form, so that He, their Lord, may direct them, and draw them nearer to the seat of His Command, and cause them to attain to that which was ordained for them. As His Reality is not known, so likewise all that is related to Him is not known, except to a certain degree.

Verily, were God the Exalted to appear in His (proper) grade and form, and in a manner befitting His Station, no one could ever approach Him or endure to be near Him.

Tablet of the Manifestation (Lawh-i-Zuhur)

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Yes that’s correct and true that God has always used human beings to communicate His Messages to us because we are human and only understand human sentiments, emotions and values, so God uses the human medium.

Let's see if you can do common sense, shall we?

You say:

Go uses human beings to communicate "his Messages"
You say he does this because "we are human and only understand human sentiments."

So, here's where the common sense, or maybe a bit of logic, comes in: how does the human God chooses (who is only human and only understand human sentiments") suddenly not be a human who only understands..... etc.

It's pure rubbish. It's illogical. It display an inabilty to reason.

Learn to think.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's all the more reason it makes sense to demand that they make those rulings now whilst they face sufficient pressure from the non-indoctrinated to make for a fairer Baha'i society rather than just letting it slide and staying active, and letting them keep on indoctrinating your children where applicable.

After all by leaving it up to a future indoctrinated bunch of zealots you increase the likelihood of a harder less fair interpretation.

So I think that a degree of responsibility falls on the shoulders of current Baha'i to stand up for hypothetical future generations of Baha'i in demanding fairer interpretations now while they have a chance of being implemented.

In my opinion.

The UHJ will make the rulings when it is the appropriate time to make the rulings.
The current generation of Baha'is has nothing to say about what the UHJ rules on.

 

[Trailblazer]

But we shouldn't harm people for doing no demonstrable harm as a principle, because to do so opens the door to harm people on the basis of superstition, and then why stop there? If we are going to harm people on the basis of alleged spiritual harm why not harm Baha'i for the alleged spiritual harm they do to Islamic society for instance?

If you are going to open the door to harming people on the basis of things which cause no demonstrable harm you are on the slippery road to hell on earth.

In my opinion.

How are the Baha'is harming anyone?

 

[CG Didymus]

What is actually not right about that?

What the #^%& is wrong with having desires? And speaking of "doing it", I've "done it" with Christians and Baha'is and it was a mutual desire and sometimes it was the Baha'i that instigated it. The funniest time was with a Catholic lady. She said, "Just do what you want. I'll just go to confession tomorrow." The saddest thing I ever heard was when a Christian friend had a one nighter with a waitress while he was on a business trip. It's amazing the level of guilt a religion can put on a person for letting themselves enjoy sharing physical love with another person.

But I believe in moderation. I'm not going to go do it every day. But once in a while. But, if a person follows the laws and teachings of some religions, it's as if it is the worst thing in the world, and the person should not even think it? I don't want to live like that and don't think I could ever live like that. So, is this really God's law? Whether you want to be with a man, woman, or both, it's not "natural"? It's a sin against God? It's "abhorrent." I really think sexual laws and moral codes have got to be the most broken rules that religion has ever invented. These laws are so bad that even a lot of religious leaders can't follow them.

 

[CG Didymus]

I can understand your confusion. Homosexual acts are forbidden, but in the Book of Laws of Baha'u'llah there is no prescribed penalty for such. It is up to the Universal House of Justice to decide what that is sometime in future. Not only that, but what is decided by the Universal House of Justice can be changed again later on. That is the way the Baha'i Faith adjusts to conditions changing over time.

It's kind of meaningless to "forbid" something and not punish the "evil" doers that darn break God's law.

 

[ppp]

Of course I’m on topic.

You're not. And the fact that you are oblivious to the possibility that you even could be is damning to your beliefs.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes sexual sins pretty common I would say, even by those who try to keep them.
I used to have trouble with lust and still do to a lesser extent. God does work in Christians to change them to be more like Jesus and they are forgiven all through this process even though at times it seems like, to the particular Christian, that they cannot be forgiven after so much sinning.

I can understand why the laws are written in such a strict way, because the religion doesn't want its people "fooling" around. But when has it ever worked? And in modern society those strict laws seem like a joke. Like God make people with the need and desire to have sex, so that they make kids. But then God puts all sorts of restrictions on thinking about sex and with whom and when and how a person has sex?

I know that even if I believed in everything else the Christians taught or the Baha'is taught, I'd be thinking, watching, doing or something sooner or later. Did I say "later". I meant sooner and not too long thereafter, I'd be thinking it, or watching it or doing it again. But good for you in your effort to be true to your God and your beliefs.

 

[ppp]

These laws are so bad that even a lot of religious leaders can't follow them.

Those laws are so bad that no one should. Follow them.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You're not. And the fact that you are oblivious to the possibility that you even could be is damning to your beliefs.

The thread is about homosexuality and religion and that’s what I’m commenting on.

 

[ppp]

"I" did not say that homosexuality is a shameful sexual aberration - Shoghi Effendi said that.

So you agree that he is wrong, both factually and morally?

 

[CG Didymus]

Why would the Baha'is of the future become an 'indoctrinated bunch of zealots'?

Are Baha'is going to tend towards being more liberal or more conservative in the future? Liberal Baha'is I would think would have a much different view about homosexuality than conservative Baha'is. But which one is more likely to get into positions of power?

 

[CG Didymus]

Those laws are so bad that no one should. Follow them.

Yeah, in theory a person should not think about sex. How's God and religion ever going to enforce that? And again, if they aren't going to enforce it, why obey it? It's going to only be those few very "spiritual" people that do.

 

[ppp]

The thread is about homosexuality and religion and that’s what I’m commenting on.

And the fact that you feel the need to pretend they generalities are the same as specifics is doubly so. It is beyond me why would anyone join a religion where it's representatives engage in such deceptive practices.