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Featured Homosexuality and religious.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Seeker of White Light, Sep 21, 2022.

  1. Policy

    Policy Well-Known Member
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    To be clear, what you agree with is... "Bahá'u'lláh has spoken very strongly against this shameful sexual aberration," which unless he lacks a grasp of how languages work, is a negative attitude and feeling towards homosexuality.
     
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  2. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

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    But your god and your religious leaders do. And you have admitted that you have to accept whatever they say, without question or doubt.
    Which means that their moral judgements are your moral judgements.
    (I accept that you will be unable to grasp this simple principle).
     
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  3. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

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    What does this mean?
     
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  4. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

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    So you blindly follow whatever you believe god decrees.
    And whatever god decrees is only known through the words of men.
    So you blindly follow the words of men hoping they are the words of god.
     
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  5. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

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    But you aren't "citing god".
    You are merely citing men who claim to be messengers of god.
     
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  6. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Who said what under what circumstances absolutely does matter.

    The reference about the ten good qualities was from a book titled 'Baha'u'llah and the New Era' written just over 100 years ago by Esselmont. It was not written by Baha'u'llah.

    If you are unable to distinguish what was said by 'Abdu'l-Baha as distinct from Baha'u'llah and under what circumstances, then you are unlikely to understand the Baha'i Faith. Instead you will misunderstand it and misrepresent it as you have done throughout this thread

    Who said anything about doctrine? It was simply an admonition or encouragement to look at the good in others and resist the tendency to focus on one's negative qualities.

    "Abdu'l-Baha was not a Manifestations of God and we Baha'is don't tend to think of him as being a 'messenger' or 'prophet' like the Bab or Baha'u'llah.

    Seeing the good in others and overlooking their faults isn't nonsense to me.

    'Abdu'l-Baha often uses a degree of hyperbole to make a point by the way.
     
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  7. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

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    But your argument is nonsense. people don't say that.
    You are just making stuff up.
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I have told you numerous times that I do not have to accept anything I do not choose to accept
    Nonetheless I do accept whatever they say.
    No, only God can make moral judgments and God does so through His Messengers.
     
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  9. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

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    You really don't have a clue what's going on here, do you?

    Bahai teachings clearly and unequivocally state that homosexuality is evil, immoral, a shameful aberration, an affliction, a handicap that is against nature, that should be purged from the world (all words taken from Bahai teachings).
    This has nothing to do with whether gay Bahais should be able to fulfil their true nature (which they cannot) or suppress their innate self (which they are required to do). It is about intolerance and prejudice and discrimination, in principle. Those words are homophobic by definition and in law. Using them against homosexual people in the real world would see you condemned, suspended from work, even prosecuted.
    Yet you insist that such terms are somehow fine and acceptable.

    You have nowhere left to go.
     
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  10. KWED

    KWED Scratching head, scratching knee

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    This is just ridiculous now.
    Bahai teachings call homosexuality evil, immoral, a shameful aberration, an affliction, a handicap that is against nature, that should be purged from the world - but you pretend that somehow none of this suggests that homosexuality is wrong!
    Seriously, time to stop digging and climb out of your hole.
     
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  11. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Is that 'Hindu-speak'?

    Is it the Hindu way to belittle religious people and groups that think differently from Hindus?
     
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  12. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    And I believe quite the contrary -- that we humans know what is best for us, because that is how nature got us here.

    But yes, we benefit by doing what is in our best interest -- we just need to be sure what that is. I recall, for example, that the Bible that God supposedly inspired thinks that it is in our best interest to stone to death any daughter who loses her virginity before getting married. I have to say, I quite honestly don't think that is really in ANYBODY's best interest.
     
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  13. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Veteran Member
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    Im not arguing with you. I told you that I believe what God says not you or people. If you can’t accept there’s a God that’s just bad luck. You go your way and I’ll go mine.
     
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  14. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Veteran Member
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    It’s immoral because God, our creator Who knows more about us than you or I says it’s wrong. I defer to an All Knowing Source of knowledge as opposed to man’s petty mindedness which labels anything that feels good as moral and healthy which it is not.

    You don’t believe in God so it’s a waste of time this dialogue because you’re discounting an All Knowing and infallible Source of knowledge from the argument which I cannot do as I believe God exists.
     
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  15. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Veteran Member
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    Of course I’m on topic. Baha’u’llah teaches homosexuality is immoral. I agree with Him because I believe He was sent by an All Knowing God Who created us and knows us better than we know ourselves and knows what’s best for us better than we do and homosexuality is not in our best interests according to God. So if you don’t agree then just go your own way but I’m choosing to agree with God and Baha’u’llah not what people say about homosexuality because that’s just peoples opinion.

    So believe what you like but I’m agreeing with Baha’u’llah on this issue because I see the future of humanity being perpetuated by men and women not homosexuals. You wouldn’t exist if you didn’t have both a mother and a father. You couldn’t have been born as a result of a homosexual relationship.
     
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  16. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Veteran Member
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    Both religions say that one wife is better.
     
  17. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Veteran Member
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    That's the difference between you and me. I’m claiming Baha’u’llah is not just an ordinary man but the Promised One foretold by all the major religions of the world. The Jews await the Messiah, Christians the return of Christ in the Glory of the Father, the Hindus some sects await Krishna to appear as Kali Avatar, the Buddhists await Maitreya or AmitAbha, the Muslims the Twelfth Imam and return of Jesus, the Zoroastrians await the Shah Bahram. They are all referring to a Great Spiritual Promised One to appear at the end of the age. Baha’u’llah identifies as that Being by His Words and Teachings.

    But as you do not believe in God, you are incapable at present of understanding these things and protest as soon as the word God is mentioned. That’s your problem. I’m over that and privileged and honoured to know Baha’u’llah but you are still stuck with no belief in God.
     
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  18. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Traffic fines harm people in a couple of ways.
    They harm people financially which has effect on the ability of the poor to fulfill their wants and needs, and if a person accrues enough demerits, they can lose the ability to drive potentially resulting in job loss which again harms the ability of the poor to fulfill their wants and needs.

    The reason this harm is justified is because it reduces the greater harm of allowing speeding, drink driving etc to go unchecked causing carnage on our roads.

    The reason this analogy doesn't hold up for homosexuality is because homosexuality causes no demonstrable harm.

    In my opinion.
     
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  19. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Veteran Member
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    Not at all. I fully investigated the claims of Baha’u’llah over many years and found them to be true and once I determined He was sent by an All Knowing God then and only then deferred to Him. But not blindly, no never.

    My belief is not blind belief like yours is. You are blindly believing Baha’u’llah is not from God unlike myself who has investigated unbiased for years before deciding. Sadly your are the one relying on blind belief not me.

    Do a serious unbiased investigation of the claims of Baha’u’llah then we can discuss in a couple of years.

    These are letters Baha’u’llah wrote to the Kings and Rulers and religious leaders of the world including the peoples of the world. You will find names like Queen Victoria, Napoleon III and the Pope there also. That’s just a start. If you really are sincere and don’t agree with blind belief then do your own research and take your time.

    Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh
     
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  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    FYI, Baha'is do not believe that the true nature or innate self of a human is sexual, we believe our true nature and innate self is spiritual.

    The following is a post that was posted by Dale on the Planet Baha'i forum years ago. I liked it so much that I saved it in a Word document. I asked Dale if I could pass it on and he gave me permission to do so. I won't say that this is the 'official' Baha'i position, but it is my position.

    "Ah, but that is conflating love and sex (which, yeah, people do all the time). Sex is not love and love is not sex, nor is there any necessary relationship between the two. In human beings it is true that sex typically plays a bonding role in a certain type of loving relationship, but it's not necessary to it (however much people think it is). We love lots of people who we would (unless something is wrong with us) never consider having sex with: children, parents, close friends, etc. One might even add household pets to the list.

    Sex is primarily about reproduction. That's why it even exists in the first place. It's a biological mechanism that increases diversity in the gene pool, for one thing. Its role in relationships in some species is a secondary role, not the primary one, which evolved much later. Sex is not something only cute furry creatures do for bonding. Reptiles and amphibians and insects and even plants have sex lives. It evolved as a means of reproduction, and only later acquired secondary roles. Those who want to divorce it completely from its primary role (and they do exist; I've been in discussions where people have argued quite strenuously that sex isn't about reproduction at all!) are in a very real sense attempting to force it to conform to their own selfish desires . . . and that, ultimately, is what is against our spiritual nature.

    Our spiritual nature cannot be developed except by "dying to self" and "living in God." God has given us a dual nature: one material and one spiritual. Sex is part of the material nature, however much it may be able to play a role in a truly loving relationship. It is not what we are, even though people insist that it is. (Extreme but real example: I read an article in the long ago when the AIDS epidemic had become the big news of the day in which the author, a promiscuous homosexual who had contracted the disease, wrote about how it had affected his life. He stated near the end that he had to take a lot of precautions now to avoid spreading the illness, but that he couldn't give up his promiscuous lifestyle because that was "who he was.") God is calling us to struggle against our lower nature and to become who we truly are: not material beings, not sexual beings, but spiritual beings who are in control of the physical side of our nature and who can thus find true happiness living in conformity with His will. Although not scriptural, there is a possible explanation of why He has made it so hard that I ran across long ago in a Baha'i children's book: Because if it were too easy, it wouldn't be worth anything. Or put another way, because only by being challenged can we really prove our love for God."
     
    #780 Trailblazer, Sep 23, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022
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