Homosexuality and religious.

[dybmh]

Thank you very much, but that will not work for him, because that is mixing and matching Baha'i Writings to suit his purposes.

There is no official Baha'i source that says what KWED claimed is in the official Baha'i sources:

I agree that the quote originally provided was inaccurate. However I think it's appropriate to understand the intention of the UHJ to include homosexuality as one of the evil passions that need to be purged. The UHJ included this Baha'u'llah quote in its document titled "Homosexuality". That means something to me and shouldn't be ignored.

BTW, did you see my post#509 ( link )? I offered my opinion of the UHJ "Homosexuality" document. Your feedback would be much appreciated.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am having trouble finding the source of the verbatim quote

because there isn't any.

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree that the quote originally provided was inaccurate. However I think it's appropriate to understand the intention of the UHJ to include homosexuality as one of the evil passions that need to be purged. The UHJ included this Baha'u'llah quote in its document titled "Homosexuality". That means something to me and shouldn't be ignored.

I agree that the Baha'i Faith teaches that homosexuality is 'one' of the evil passions that need to be purged, but so what? Some people might agree with that and some might not agree, but at the end of the day it is all a matter of personal opinion, and that is what this thread is all about.

BTW, did you see my post#509 ( link )? I offered my opinion of the UHJ "Homosexuality" document. Your feedback would be much appreciated.

I'll take a look.

 

[KWED]

No, it absolutely is not homophobia. Read the definition.
homophobia: dislike of or prejudice against gay people.
what is homophobia - Google Search

That is not "the definition", it is just one, simplistic one at the top of a Google search. I gave you others (including a legal definition) that show those Bahai texts to be clearly homophobic.
Here's a practical example.

In France recently a government minister was called on to resign and universally condemned after making comments described as "homophobic".
They said that adoption by same-sex couples was a “scheme that goes against nature.”
Media, politicians and rights groups condemned the comment as "homophobic".

That is nothing compared to all the statements about homosexuality in Bahaism.
Get your head out of your arse.

 

[KWED]

Thank you very much, but that will not work for him, because that is mixing and matching Baha'i Writings to suit his purposes.

There is no official Baha'i source that says what KWED claimed is in the official Baha'i sources:
homosexuality "is actually "a shameful sexual aberration that needs to be purged from the world."
#299 KWED, Yesterday at 2:47 PM

Extracts from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh

We shrink for very shame, from treating of the subject of boys. Fear ye the Merciful, O peoples of the world! Commit not that which if forbidden you in Our Holy Tablet, and be not of those who rove distractedly in the wilderness of their desires. (Kitab-i-Aqdas, paragraph 107) [1]

Ye are forbidden to commit adultery, sodomy and lechery. Avoid them, O concourse of the faithful. By the righteousness of God! Ye have been called into being to purge the world from the defilement of evil passions. This is what the Lord of all mankind hath enjoined upon you, could ye but perceive it. He who relateth himself to the All-Merciful and committeth satanic deeds, verily he is not of Me. Unto this beareth witness every atom, pebble, tree and fruit, and beyond them this ever-proclaiming, truthful and trustworthy Tongue. (From a previously untranslated Tablet) [2]

Extracts from letters written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi:

...Bahá'u'lláh has spoken very strongly against this shameful sexual aberration, as He has against adultery and immoral conduct in general. We must try and help the soul to overcome them. (25 October 1949) [3]

Homosexuality

Wow! You really don't have a clue, do you.

You say that there is nothing in Bahai texts to support my claim, and then post Bahai texts that say fundamentally the same thing!

Your denial has gone beyond a joke.

 

[KWED]

Religion is not a political party and it does not serve the same purpose.

So religions should be allowed to say things that political parties would be condemned or even prosecuted for?
Seems reasonable.

Take a look in the Old Testament if you want to see what it says about homosexuality and the punishments for engaging in the behavior.

To be fair, it took longer than I expected for the whataboutery card to hit the table.
But you admit that god (you have confirmed that there is only one god) is violently homophobic.

 

[Trailblazer]

The over-all impression I get from it, is that homosexuality is perceived to be a global problem which harms society. This matches the statement by Baha'u'llah that "evil passions" should be "purged from the world".

I think your over-all impression is correct.
I agree with Baha'u'llah, that homosexuality is a global problem which harms society.

I also believe that sex out of wedlock is a global problem that harms society, and I believe it is a much bigger problem than homosexuality.

I also wholeheartedly agree with Shoghi Effendi on this point (emphasis mine):

"In another letter on the Guardian's behalf, also to an individual believer, the secretary writes:

'Amongst the many other evils afflicting society in this spiritual low water mark in history is the question of immorality, and over-emphasis of sex…'

"This indicates how the whole matter of sex and the problems related to it have assumed far too great an importance in the thinking of present-day society.

'Such a chaste and holy life, with its implications of modesty, purity, temperance, decency, and clean-mindedness, involves no less than the exercise of moderation in all that pertains to dress, language, amusements, and all artistic and literary avocations. It demands daily vigilance in the control of one's carnal desires and corrupt inclinations.'

(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, a copy of which was sent to the compiler with a letter dated March 8, 1981)

Lights of Guidance/Chastity and Sex Education - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

 

[KWED]

and you mixed and matched what was in the quotes to suit your purposes.

But you accept that the words "shameful sexual aberration" and "purge the world from evil passions", in the context of homosexuality, are genuine quotes from genuine Bahai sources.

Given this, really not sure what you are still whining about.

 

[dybmh]

I agree that the Baha'i Faith teaches that homosexuality is 'one' of the evil passions that need to be purged, but so what?

1) The quote says "purge the world". That expands the scope far beyond prohibiting homosexuality among members of the Baha'i faith.
2) Purging homosexuality is harmful for gay people. The perscription of counseling, prayer, and focusing on scripture sounds like conversion therapy which I think has been shown to be ineffective and psychologically harmful. That's prejudice.

So-called “conversion therapy,” sometimes known as “reparative therapy,” is a range of dangerous and discredited practices that falsely claim to change a person’s sexual orientation or gender identity or expression. Such practices have been rejected by every mainstream medical and mental health organization for decades, but due to continuing discrimination and societal bias against LGBTQ people, some practitioners continue to conduct conversion therapy. Minors are especially vulnerable, and conversion therapy can lead to depression, anxiety, drug use, homelessness, and suicide.

The Lies and Dangers of "Conversion Therapy"​

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You seem to be RF head judge so you have to make a ruling of what I mean

We're all judges who decide what others mean, even you. And when others won't answer the questions asked of them to clarify what they mean, we decide what that likely is without their input. For example, you were recently asked at least twice about the Baha'i scriptures on homosexuality, but declined. Do you think that that choice shouldn't be evaluated? I'll bet you do, but that's what critical thinkers do. They interpret evidence as the phrase critical analysis implies. For example, what does it mean when he won't cooperate? Did he not read the words? Does he not understand the request? Is he willfully noncompliant? If so, why? Is he afraid or insecure? Is he maliciously noncompliant?

I have an opinion. It's not particularly flattering, and it might be incorrect, but without your input, it'll have to stand. My guess is that you don't know what Baha'i scripture says on the matter and are too meek to say so. You are free to modify that if you disagree, but if you decline to, you have no reason for you to think that opinion will change.

Religions do not teach evil.

This is incorrect. Christian homophobia is an excellent falsifying counterexample.

Sexual preference is usually not a choice imo and I see no reason for you to see a moral component in being gay, and neither do I see a moral component in being heterosexual. But God has told Christians what His morals are and so even if I don't fully understand, I go along with it because I am a Christian.

With all due respect, that is an example of the harm religion does. You're going along with a moral judgment that your conscience rejects. Your intuition is natural. It's how most people outside of Abrahamic religions feel about homosexuality - not a moral issue at all. But religion makes it one, and declares homosexuality immoral. That's harmful to gays, and it's harmful to you as well to defy your conscience.

what we have here is antagonism because we believe differently

Perhaps. You seem to think that that is always incorrect. Southern governors think differently about immigrants. The Supreme Court thinks differently about women's freedoms and church-state separation. The January 6th insurrection was performed by people who thought differently about the election of the outcome. The bulk of Covid deaths after the avaialbility of vaccines were in people who thought differently. Putin thinks differently.

Yes that’s true. But not just homosexuality. Any form of sexual conduct outside of marriage between a man and a woman is considered immoral. So the law applies equally to all except that marriage can only be between the opposite sexes.

The phobic label is an emotional manipulation tactic, designed by the Left, to create compliance to bad ideas, by using the good nature of religious and all good people, against them.

No, it's a sincere moral judgment. But you know that. You can't really believe that it is a cynical attempt to cause good people to accept bad ideas. It's the opposite. That's what religion is for, and the bad idea is Christian homophobia. That's also what conservative indoctrination media is for, and it uses the same techniques, which are highly effective against the defenseless who lack critical thinking skills.

Well, you adopt the language of equality, but when it comes to your words, and the impact of your laws what you practice is indeed discrimination.

Agreed. You've probably seen comparisons of equality and equity. Equality is closer to everybody gets the same thing, whereas equity is closer to each gets what he needs. Forbidding abortion to all is equality. Forbidding same sex marriage to all is equality:

I believe I am happier but @Evangelicalhumanist probably believes that he is happier....

I'd say that anybody capable of experiencing the satisfaction of sexual relations without harm to self or others is better off than one who feels no such urges, and who in turn is better off than those who satisfy sexual desires carelessly or with the wrong people. It's analogous to being happily married (assuming that that is possible for one) outranking being single, which is better than being unhappily married. You might not agree with that.

 

[Trailblazer]

What is being "flagrantly homosexual"?
And why should a person be disenfranchised for it?
Can people lose their right to vote for being "flagrantly heterosexual"?

Yes, they can lose their right to vote in Baha'i elections.

Why is homosexuality against Bahai laws?

You'll have to ask God, if you can locate Him with your GPS.
Meanwhile you can read what the Baha'i sources say...

It is notable that the Baha'i Faith was not the first to outlaw homosexuality. That happened a long time ago as it is in the Bible.

 

[KWED]

I agree that the Baha'i Faith teaches that homosexuality is 'one' of the evil passions that need to be purged,

And yet you still claim that "homosexuality is an evil passion that heeds to be purged from the world" is not a homophobic statement?

but so what?

So what???
I'm not gay and I still find that extremely offensive, prejudiced and intolerant.

Some people might agree with that and some might not agree, but at the end of the day it is all a matter of personal opinion, and that is what this thread is all about.

Ok try this and see if your response is still "So what? Some might agree and some might not. It's just personal opinion"...

"I agree that the Baha'i Faith teaches that black people is 'one' of the evil passions that need to be purged"

 

[Trailblazer]

Although I fully expect that all those references will be ignored and the other one latched upon as "evidence" that Bahaism doesn't say the things it demonstrably says.

I hate to dash your expectations but I will not ignore them. In fact, I agree with them as I just explained in another post to @dybmh.

 

[KWED]

Yes, they can lose their right to vote in Baha'i elections.

There were three separate questions there, so have another go...
What is being "flagrantly homosexual"?
And why should a person be disenfranchised for it?
Can people lose their right to vote for being "flagrantly heterosexual"?

You'll have to ask God, if you can locate Him with your GPS.
Meanwhile you can read what the Baha'i sources say...

It is notable that the Baha'i Faith was not the first to outlaw homosexuality. That happened a long time ago as it is in the Bible.

So you don't know why god is anti-gay, but you just accept it without doubt.
And you don't blindly follow dogma.

 

[KWED]

I hate to dash your expectations but I will not ignore them. In fact, I agree with them as I just explained in another post to @dybmh.

Ironically, you did exactly as I predicted, but you don't even realise you did, while at the same time confirming my original argument.

Remember you have made a couple of posts claiming that my original argument was false because I can't find the source with the exact wording I used. But in those posts you quoted Bahai sources saying the same thing.
You later admitted that Bahai texts say what I claimed they said.

I do worry about you sometimes.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why?
Surely a genuine and sincere love and desire for a mutually respectful and fulfilling relationship is more important than a piece of paper.
Some people get married in order to obtain a work permit, but you respect them more than people in a lifelong, monogamous, devoted, loving relationship?
You don't have a clue, do you?

I did not say I respected them more.
Some people get married for that reason but that is not the reason most people get married.

Most people get married for a lifelong, monogamous, devoted, loving relationship.
Moreover, according to Baha'i belief the primary purpose of marriage is to bring children into the world and children need two committed loving parents so they will have a sense of stability.

 

[Trailblazer]

What the?
You provided a source for the "homosexuality is a shameless sexual aberration" quote yourself!
You really have no idea what's going on, do you?

I know exactly what is going on.

There is no official Baha'i source that says what you claimed is in the official Baha'i sources:
homosexuality "is actually "a shameful sexual aberration that needs to be purged from the world."
#299 KWED, Yesterday at 2:47 PM

 

[Trailblazer]

Can homosexuals be fined for kissing in public?
Can unmarried straight couples be fined for kissing in public?
If the answers are yes to the former and no to the latter, then there is your prejudice and discrimination.

There are no fines for either one of those behaviors.

 

[Trailblazer]

You later admitted that Bahai texts say what I claimed they said.

The sentiment is there but the exact wording is not in the texts.

 

[dybmh]

The sentiment is there but the exact wording is not in the texts.

And you agree with the sentiment; but you don't see the harm? you don't see it as prejudice?