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Homosexuality and Gender Roles

Averroes

Active Member
Today at work I happen to observe a lesbian couple come to my work. From first appearance one of the lesbians appeared to look like a guy. Upon approaching the secretary, the secretary addressed the boy-ish looking lesbian as "sir." The person took offense and walked out. The secretary looked at me like "what did I do?" Of course it was an honest mistake bit my question is "why do gays in particular lesbians, create these gender roles?" This isn't just about behavior but in partixular dress, mannerisms, etc

I know the most common answer would be inherent socialization based on the patriarchal model, but I feel there is more to it. I mean if a person doesn't desire the opposite sex why would they model themselves after the opposite sex?
 

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
I would think that comfort has a lot to do with it. I enjoy wearing pretty *man-ish* clothes sometimes, and I'm straight as a board. I also love to cut my hair short. A while ago I had a faux hawk that was basically a buzz cut. I just think it looks awesome, and makes me feel pretty. I imagine that the same goes for anyone who dresses the way they do. And dressing the way you want doesn't automatically entail sexuality or a desire to be anything than what you are.

HOWEVER, I will say that sometimes honest mistakes are made, and it's kind of silly to get huffy about it. I mean, what I look like in the mirror with baggy clothes and whatnot - I know what kind of reaction I'm going to get (negative/positive/neutral) but it doesn't phase me. They just don't know me, so they don't know better.
 

Antiochian

Rationalist
I for one find gender roles to be largely repressive. Hard to believe there was a time when a woman in anything other than a skirt was considered improper and scandalous. I know some "masculine-acting" straight women, as well as lesbians. I know some very "feminine" lesbians and straight women. I know some very "butch" gay males, and there are no doubt some "effeminate" straight males.

I for one enjoy crossing the lines. I've been known to don make-up and I love my bling. I love doing "girl" things like shopping. On the other hand, I enjoy "guy" things like fishing. I am who I am. An individual. Who the heck wants to be the same as everyone else? How exactly is a woman supposed to act or dress? Or a man for that matter?

The lesbian in question was probably being overly sensitive and had probably been intentionally insulted before for her appearance and/or demeanor.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Of course it was an honest mistake bit my question is "why do gays in particular lesbians, create these gender roles?" This isn't just about behavior but in partixular dress, mannerisms, etc
Why are you specifying gays (and specifically lesbians)? I bet you're dressed "like a man" at the moment - isn't that following a gender role too?

I think the fundamental (and all too common) issue here is starting from a point of treating homosexuals as different or special and expecting them to obey different rules and instincts to "normal people". The fact is that homosexuals are "normal people". The all have a particular feature that is different from the majority but we all have features that differ from the majority. Different is normal. A truly average person would appear very strange to us.

So, some lesbians dress and act in a traditionally male fashion because that works for them. The combination of their individual psychology and the society they're in create that feature. That's fundamentally no different to the reason you (presumably) and I dress and act in a traditionally male fashion too. The factors are obviously different but the basic process is the same.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Why are you specifying gays (and specifically lesbians)? I bet you're dressed "like a man" at the moment - isn't that following a gender role too?

I think the fundamental (and all too common) issue here is starting from a point of treating homosexuals as different or special and expecting them to obey different rules and instincts to "normal people". The fact is that homosexuals are "normal people". The all have a particular feature that is different from the majority but we all have features that differ from the majority. Different is normal. A truly average person would appear very strange to us.

So, some lesbians dress and act in a traditionally male fashion because that works for them. The combination of their individual psychology and the society they're in create that feature. That's fundamentally no different to the reason you (presumably) and I dress and act in a traditionally male fashion too. The factors are obviously different but the basic process is the same.

I agree with what you're saying here.

However, let's talk about the woman in question. My question is: Why would she get mad at anyone for mistaking her for a man? Surely she knows that her dress, carriage and demeanor cause people to routinely make this mistake. If it bothers her that much, she should do something about it. If it's more important to her to continue her present dress, carriage and demeanor, then she should let go of her anger when strangers make what probably is a very common mistake.

But some people are firmly stuck in victim mentality.

This would be like me getting mad everytime someone assumes I don't know anything about guns or football just because I dress very femininely.
 
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HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
However, let's talk about the woman in question. My question is: Why would she get mad at anyone for mistaking her for a man?
Assuming the story is true and accurately reported, without her input we can only guess.

Maybe it doesn't happen very often and isn't as reasonable a mistake to make as is being suggested. Maybe she made an honest mistake and though the receptionist was being deliberately insulting. Maybe she'd had a bad day and it was the final straw. Maybe she was just a idiot.

I'm not sure it really matters in the wider context though.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Assuming the story is true and accurately reported, without her input we can only guess.

Maybe it doesn't happen very often and isn't as reasonable a mistake to make as is being suggested. Maybe she made an honest mistake and though the receptionist was being deliberately insulting. Maybe she'd had a bad day and it was the final straw. Maybe she was just a idiot.

I'm not sure it really matters in the wider context though.

I'm taking the story at face value, since I wasn't there. The OP says she looked like a man.

Let's not be disengenuous - we've all seen people who defy traditional gender "looks" and roles. I'm not saying they are abnormal. I'm just saying that they shouldn't be surprised or offended when other people make an honest mistake.

It's sort of like women who have a very deep voice and who get mistaken for a man over the phone. Look - you have a deep voice. This shouldn't surprise you. Learn to laugh it off, or take speech lessons and change it. There's no point in walking around with a chip on your shoulder because of it.
 

Averroes

Active Member
Why are you specifying gays (and specifically lesbians)? I bet you're dressed "like a man" at the moment - isn't that following a gender role too?

I think the fundamental (and all too common) issue here is starting from a point of treating homosexuals as different or special and expecting them to obey different rules and instincts to "normal people". The fact is that homosexuals are "normal people". The all have a particular feature that is different from the majority but we all have features that differ from the majority. Different is normal. A truly average person would appear very strange to us.

So, some lesbians dress and act in a traditionally male fashion because that works for them. The combination of their individual psychology and the society they're in create that feature. That's fundamentally no different to the reason you (presumably) and I dress and act in a traditionally male fashion too. The factors are obviously different but the basic process is the same.

I focused on the lesbians because for obvious reasons this situation involved a lesbian couple. But expanding on this I have observed a lot of gay couples especially while travelling and partying in Hollywood where this partixular dress/attitude is common. I understand that gays are "normal people" but that is not the question here. The question is why do gays male and female pursue to have behavior of the opposite sex when they do not sexually desire, emotionally desire, spiritually desire the opposite sex?

Clothing, buzz cuts, walking, talking, even growing facial hair are a few examples. This isn't some gender identity disorder this is pure gender role fulfillment. I've even heard of a lesbian at my job who is considered "butch" using the men's restroom. Again this is beyond what makes them feel comfortable.

I just dont see how two women one being the "girly girl" and the other the "man" model their roles after heterosexual couples. Hence is why I would assune that long decades of partiarchal influence upon family has been engrained in the minds of people thus you have what I just spoke about.

I mean since a lesbian woman doesn't desire a man why actively go out of your way to look like one then get upset when someone calls you sir?
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
I for one find gender roles to be largely repressive. Hard to believe there was a time when a woman in anything other than a skirt was considered improper and scandalous. I know some "masculine-acting" straight women, as well as lesbians. I know some very "feminine" lesbians and straight women. I know some very "butch" gay males, and there are no doubt some "effeminate" straight males.

I for one enjoy crossing the lines. I've been known to don make-up and I love my bling. I love doing "girl" things like shopping. On the other hand, I enjoy "guy" things like fishing. I am who I am. An individual. Who the heck wants to be the same as everyone else? How exactly is a woman supposed to act or dress? Or a man for that matter?

The lesbian in question was probably being overly sensitive and had probably been intentionally insulted before for her appearance and/or demeanor.

Quoted for coolness of statement. :clap
 

blackout

Violet.
I focused on the lesbians because for obvious reasons this situation involved a lesbian couple. But expanding on this I have observed a lot of gay couples especially while travelling and partying in Hollywood where this partixular dress/attitude is common. I understand that gays are "normal people" but that is not the question here. The question is why do gays male and female pursue to have behavior of the opposite sex when they do not sexually desire, emotionally desire, spiritually desire the opposite sex?

Clothing, buzz cuts, walking, talking, even growing facial hair are a few examples. This isn't some gender identity disorder this is pure gender role fulfillment. I've even heard of a lesbian at my job who is considered "butch" using the men's restroom. Again this is beyond what makes them feel comfortable.

I just dont see how two women one being the "girly girl" and the other the "man" model their roles after heterosexual couples. Hence is why I would assune that long decades of partiarchal influence upon family has been engrained in the minds of people thus you have what I just spoke about.

I mean since a lesbian woman doesn't desire a man why actively go out of your way to look like one then get upset when someone calls you sir?


These are transgender issues,
(the gender you embody/live out as an individual)
not issues of sexual orientation,
(who you are sexually attracted to partner wise).

Unfortunately even non transgendered homosexuals
frequently do not understand transgender issues,
and make things harder on those genuinely trying to transition.

It's always nice when people cut each other some slack,
and make an attempt both to be thoughtful/polite,
and also understanding, when others don't understand.

If you don a non traditional gender style? just say so.
If you're in the process of transitioning,
you will have to make your gender preference clear,
or how else will anyone know?

Then it would be so nice if others didn't judge them for it.
In the end, we're ALL people.
Each one, doin' their own thing.
 

DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
I think some people simply decide to take on certain gender roles.

It's important to note that gender and sex are two different things.

Some gay men are feminine, others are masculine and simply attracted to other men. Likewise, some straight men are not very masculine and act in ways that some people would consider "gay."

It's funny that I read this, because I was just watching a documentary about William S. Burroughs not half an hour ago. He was gay, but didnt act like it at all. He was just attracted to men and not women.

Its all social conceptualization. After all, there are some cultures where the straight men wear make up and gossip, while the straight women are the dominant ones who do the "manly" things.

Your "sexuality" simply describes what you are attracted to.
 

Averroes

Active Member
I think some people simply decide to take on certain gender roles.

It's important to note that gender and sex are two different things.

Some gay men are feminine, others are masculine and simply attracted to other men. Likewise, some straight men are not very masculine and act in ways that some people would consider "gay."

It's funny that I read this, because I was just watching a documentary about William S. Burroughs not half an hour ago. He was gay, but didnt act like it at all. He was just attracted to men and not women.

Its all social conceptualization. After all, there are some cultures where the straight men wear make up and gossip, while the straight women are the dominant ones who do the "manly" things.

Your "sexuality" simply describes what you are attracted to.


Yeah but we tend to incorporate behavior in relation to our sex. For example a man who desires a woman may also desire to take on the role of a man (ex head of household) because he may feel that at least traditionally, that is what women expect.

For gay women if one perceives to be the "man" of the relationship she will do things to be associated with that role. My question is why?
 
Yeah but we tend to incorporate behavior in relation to our sex. For example a man who desires a woman may also desire to take on the role of a man (ex head of household) because he may feel that at least traditionally, that is what women expect.

For gay women if one perceives to be the "man" of the relationship she will do things to be associated with that role. My question is why?

I think it partly has to do with sexual stratification and more than anything. Generally in the homosexual world there are all sorts of relationships (most relationships are sexually versatile). The 10% who actually have the dominant/submissive dichotomy of sexual relationship funnily tend to also mimic gender roles reflective of that dominance or submissiveness.

Of course, it no way implies inequality, but egality through expressed roles.

But other than that, beats me. Maybe God just made homosexuals that way. :shrug:
 

Antiochian

Rationalist
He was gay, but didnt act like it at all. He was just attracted to men and not women.

How exactly does a gay man act? Does he wear pink fuzzy shoes, gaudy jewelry, and eye shadow? Does he watch Project Runway while clutching a teddy bear named Alfonso? (And there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing any of those things, btw, though I personally gave up teddy bears years ago...)
Suppose I move the statement around to say: He was straight, but didn't act like it at all. He was just attracted to women and not men.

Makes about as much (or as little) sense. Pay close attention to the language you're using.
 

DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
How exactly does a gay man act? Does he wear pink fuzzy shoes, gaudy jewelry, and eye shadow? Does he watch Project Runway while clutching a teddy bear named Alfonso? (And there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing any of those things, btw, though I personally gave up teddy bears years ago...)
Suppose I move the statement around to say: He was straight, but didn't act like it at all. He was just attracted to women and not men.

Makes about as much (or as little) sense. Pay close attention to the language you're using.

Im simply referring to the "typical" behavior associated with homosexuality in today's society. It is seen to be common that a homosexual man acts feminine, and I have had quite a few gay friends who acted "gay." Im not making negative connotations about it, and in fact I mean to point out that being homosexual does not necessarily make a man more feminine or a woman more masculine. I have some feminine attributes and am straight, it has nothing to do with my sexual orientation.

Again whats considered masculine and feminine behavior is largely arbitrary.

Obviously I didnt use the proper language to distinguish what I meant; your misunderstanding being the evidence. I am sorryif you found yourself offended by it.

The point I was trying to make is that outward behavior is not indicative of ones sexuality.
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Anyone who pretends not to notice that a good proportion of gay men act effeminate, or that a good proportion of lesbian women act masculine is simply being obtuse.

These stereotypes are grounded in reality. That doesn't excuse bias, or rudeness, but come on. When groups deny a reality, it undermines their integrity.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I agree with what you're saying here.

However, let's talk about the woman in question. My question is: Why would she get mad at anyone for mistaking her for a man? Surely she knows that her dress, carriage and demeanor cause people to routinely make this mistake. If it bothers her that much, she should do something about it.
conformity...?

If it's more important to her to continue her present dress, carriage and demeanor, then she should let go of her anger when strangers make what probably is a very common mistake.
i agree.

But some people are firmly stuck in victim mentality.
because they refuse to conform

This would be like me getting mad everytime someone assumes I don't know anything about guns or football just because I dress very femininely.
not the same as assuming you can shoot or play though...

edit:
if it bothers you that they would assume that about you, would you consider changing your hobbies?
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Anyone who pretends not to notice that a good proportion of gay men act effeminate, or that a good proportion of lesbian women act masculine is simply being obtuse.

These stereotypes are grounded in reality. That doesn't excuse bias, or rudeness, but come on. When groups deny a reality, it undermines their integrity.

what is the reality?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
what is the reality?


The reality is that many people act in a distinct manner which demonstrates their sexual identity pretty clearly.

Like I said, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that behavior. More power to 'em. I'm just saying that ANYONE, gay or straight or anything in between, who is routinely mistaken for someone of the opposite gender, shouldn't be surprised or offended when it happens.

Our hairstyles and clothing and carriage are all things that are totally within our own control. Well - except for bad hair days.
 
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