Homeopathy

[Subduction Zone]

From one of the many papers that can be found in the Google search that I linked:

"A total of 225 existing studies from as far back as 1997 were rated in the NHMRC assessment from one (very strong) to four (very weak) to determine the reliability of their conclusions.

The council found that there is no solid evidence that shows homeopathy being more effective than sugar pills, and other placebos, in making patients feel better and recover."

New study claims this is what homeopathy is good for

Two hundred twentyfive studies, and no positive results for homeopathy.

Have any followers of homeopathy seriously looked at how the "medicine" is diluted?

 

[Trailblazer]

That is why controlled double blind studies are the gold standard when it comes to medical studies.

Adrian is a physician.

Adrian said: "You certainly can’t conduct a randomised double blinded control on a treatment that is patient specific, that is true."
#67 adrian009, Yesterday at 10:52 PM

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am not trying to show anything.

You are showing a startling lack of knowledge in these fields for someone in the field who is academically higher in it than I currently am.

They do make people happier if they work so in that sense they are happy pills.

That's not how they work. They work by effecting neurotrasmitters that effect mood. They won't and can't make you happy, but they might make you feel like you emotionally weigh 1/4 ton less so you can get back to the things that make you happy. Depression will not improve if all you do is take a pill and expect it to make you happy. You need changes in your daily routines, coping methods, and actively take other steps or things do not improve. This is bach-level stuff, where even here you can see the differences between people who want to participate in their treatment and those who don't.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Adrian is a physician.

Adrian said: "You certainly can’t conduct a randomised double blinded control on a treatment that is patient specific, that is true."
#67 adrian009, Yesterday at 10:52 PM

So what? He only demonstrates ignorance of testing when he claims that.

And he claims to be a physician. We cannot say for sure. But he appears to be outside of his area of expertise by making such a rather ignorant claim. A physician should know better.

Edit: Actually be was responding to the claim of another.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Our bodies have more ability than we give them credit for.

Then why did Max Stirner die of an infection bug bite 160 years ago, something today this is unthinkable? Our bodies didn't cure some diseases that were previously a death sentence. Our brains, using science to amend and enhance our own natural abilities, did.

 

[oldbadger]

Many if not most solutions are so diluted that not a single molecule of the supposed active ingredient is present. Homeopathy proponents get around this by asserting that water has a memory and remembers the molecules that were in it. I find that an odd assertion, because as we all know, water is recycled endlessly in the Earth's water cycle. If that was the case, it should remember all the urine, feces, bacteria, radioactive elements, etc. that have passed through it. None of it would be drinkable and would make you very ill.

@9-10ths_Penguin and @Subduction Zone have posted similar explanations. I have never used homeopathy, nor know of anybody that I know using same.

Clearly the reduction is extreme, but I need to hold neutrality over all this, because the specialists holding forth about homeopathy can't yet agree about many medications (statins spring to mind), some can have agendas, others can have prejudices, and yet they might be correct.

Our NHS (UK) has decided that homeopathy is no more than a placebo, and I dare say that most folks could well respond more noticeably to a BIG tablet in a STRIKING COLOUR ( ) before a tiny sip of coloured water......... but I'm one of those oldies now who doesn't trust them upstarts who tell us that they know it all........ would just make my own illogical progress............

And for that reason I'll leave homeopathy alone, neither using it nor trashing it.

 

[atanu]

I think most people do suffer from flatulence some time or other. Some suffer from it all the time - you can make out from their posts.

The point is that anyone can test efficacy of Homeo medicine 'Carbo veg' 12 or 30 C towards mitigation of stomach bloating or hyperacidity. It is an universal problem and carbo veg is almost an universal remedy. Let the flatulent folks try it. The sufferers may bless me.

But do not repeat it without consulting a doctor.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's not how they work. They work by effecting neurotrasmitters that effect mood. They won't and can't make you happy, but they might make you feel like you emotionally weigh 1/4 ton less so you can get back to the things that make you happy. Depression will not improve if all you do is take a pill and expect it to make you happy. You need changes in your daily routines, coping methods, and actively take other steps or things do not improve. This is bach-level stuff, where even here you can see the differences between people who want to participate in their treatment and those who don't.

Thanks, but I know all of that. I knew that before I ever took any classes in psychology because I did a lot of research while I was taking the drugs. I believe that the problem I had with my neurotransmitters was corrected by homeopathy because I never had depression after that. I have had grief but that is a normal reaction to all the loss I have endured.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think most people do suffer from flatulence some time or other. Some suffer from it all the time - you can make out from their posts.

The point is that anyone can test efficacy of Homeo medicine 'Carbo veg' 12 or 30 C towards mitigation of stomach bloating or hyperacidity. It is an universal problem and carbo veg is almost an universal remedy. Let the flatulent folks try it. The sufferers may bless me.

But do not repeat it without consulting a doctor.

this would not be a valid test. People's expectations or hopes could affect the outcome. If this does work a double blind test could at detect it. With little to no harm to the participants.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Homeopathy is of course refuted by its own claims. The Wikipedia article on it does not great it kindly.

Homeopathy - Wikipedia

What refutes homeopathy is its dilutions. Perhaps a believer would like to supply a source that discusses dilution and homeopathy if they think that the Wiki article got it wrong.

 

[Audie]

Hello again.......
I didn't read all the above because I just have questions of my own for you.

I understand that homeopathy dilutions are extremely weak, but I do wonder just how sensitive our bodies can be to traces of elements?

I don't think that we know enough about homeopathy to discard it........ I don't think that we should spend National Health resources upon what could be described as 'cures with unknown values' because we've got a long waiting list for knee, hip and other very tangible procedures, but funds for further research into 'other medicines' might be of value?

"Energized water" is not worthy of any consideration.

 

[Twilight Hue]

"Energized water" is not worthy of any consideration.

That reminds me of a certain televangelist for which im sure there will be plenty of people claiming the effects of Peter Popoff's Miracle spring water is even better than energized water. It just goes to show you the power of placebo. :0)

One thing for sure, is Homeopathy obviously is bunk and simply does not work in any real way except where a placebo could play an effective role in making someone feel better.

It takes a thorough knowledge of micro chemistry and microbiology in order to make effective medications. It's all in how the molecules interact and react that makes us well or sick. Prescription medicines I have contain technical schematics on the molecular structure of each medicine.

Homeopathy has none of that, so what people are taking is in reality a hit-or-miss endeavor that really has to do more with psychology than the actual causes by which a person seeks a cure.

 

[Subduction Zone]

"Energized water" is not worthy of any consideration.

But it sure made some people mad last night. Boy howdy

 

[oldbadger]

"Energized water" is not worthy of any consideration.

Well don't consider it, then.
But if any folks want to try it, or believe in it, that's up to them.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well don't consider it, then.
But if any folks want to try it, or believe in it, that's up to them.

If people want to believe that, that is fine. But demanding either government or insurance company support puts the burden of proof upon them. As you can see in this thread when such demands are put upon Homeopaths they simply run away. Homeopaths will not run the appropriate tests, probably because those with an education high enough to understand how testing is done is accompanied by an understanding that homeopathy will fail those tests.

I am not for outlawing Peter Popov's miracle water either. All that I would require is that such products be labeled appropriately. Namely having a warning that the claims of those advocating this as a cure have been shown to be completely groundless.

 

[Audie]

Well don't consider it, then.
But if any folks want to try it, or believe in it, that's up to them.

You evrr been in a Chinese traditionaj apothecary?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You evrr been in a Chinese traditionaj apothecary?

Tell us about them please. I am betting that they do have some medicines that work and some that don't (the abuses of certain endangered animals comes to mind). I have no real experience at all.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You evrr been in a Chinese traditionaj apothecary?

Where they sell eggs boiled in children's urine claiming holistic benefits from eating them?

 

[oldbadger]

If people want to believe that, that is fine. But demanding either government or insurance company support puts the burden of proof upon them. As you can see in this thread when such demands are put upon Homeopaths they simply run away. Homeopaths will not run the appropriate tests, probably because those with an education high enough to understand how testing is done is accompanied by an understanding that homeopathy will fail those tests.

I am not for outlawing Peter Popov's miracle water either. All that I would require is that such products be labeled appropriately. Namely having a warning that the claims of those advocating this as a cure have been shown to be completely groundless.

I'm cool with all of that.
Here in the UK far too much of our Health Service funding is spent on unnecessaries, from vanity beauty enhancements to very expensive anti-snoring and hearing devices, when thousands are awaiting life-changing treatments and surgeries. By all mean add homeopathic treatments to that list.

I think that I've seen racks of small homepathic med bottles in health stores, and they weren't very expensive.... I wonder if treatments discussed here are more expensive than those?

 

[oldbadger]

You evrr been in a Chinese traditionaj apothecary?

Nope.
Although I might have seen a store like that at Bluewater Shopping Centre, many years ago....