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Featured Holy water.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Deo Vindice, May 8, 2021.

  1. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Active Member

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    This can never be done.

    Because of Adam, the Earth is cursed, including the water.

    Holy Water can never be mixed with the cursed water. It would be the equivalent to mixing matter with antimatter. This would result in the heavens and the Earth passing away with a loud noise and the elements burning with fervent heat.

    This is really elementary my dear Deo. It has been dealt with countless times.

    As it turns out, the church my stepbrother's funeral was held in last week had a large fountain-type thing that held the holy water just inside the entrance (its really only used for baptisms).

    Anyway, my girlfriend who has never had any experience with these things was curious as to how it all got to be holy water (she'd never seen such a large amount).

    Which led to the topic question, how much holy water can you bless at once? Clearly, blessing the whole ocean and trying to call it holy water is probably not gonna fly, but is there some sort of limit?

    In the terrible terrible movie "Jesus Christ Vampire Hunter" Jesus blessed a lake in order to kill these 2 vampires that were attacking him.

    Extraordinary Bless: Karol Wojtyla, as a free action, may bless any quantity of water equal or less than 100 gallons as a free action. Any quantity equal or less than 1000 gallons is a move action. 100,000 or less is a full round action, with extra rounds added to the total per every power of 10. This holy water may be used for both combat and non-combat use.

    how much holy water can you bless at one time? - Ars Technica OpenForum
    Peaceful Sabbath.
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Can anyone provide a precedent for the use of "holy water" in any part of Christian scripture......please....
     
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  3. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Active Member

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    In my post I was just joking around.

    Did you think I was serious?

    Though I don't encounter too many vampires, and I'm not into the rope a pope stuff, I did find this.

    "Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse.

    "Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. - Numbers 5:17-19
    Script like this must get the Atheist and Satanist girls all wound up.

    Peaceful Sabbath.
     
  4. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    This is a pagan thing. You aren't going to find it in scripture. It endlessly amazes me
    how some seemingly devoted people can observe pagan traditions not requested or
    authorized by the bible they claim to follow.
     
  5. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Active Member

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    These kinds of questions support my view that there is no such thing as holy water.
     
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  6. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein The Uncuckable
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    Stop thinking so hard about this.
     
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  7. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein The Uncuckable
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    You can say anything is a "pagan tradition". Breathing air is a pagan tradition. :rolleyes:
     
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  8. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    No, I mean that things like observing holy days, monasteries, monks, chanting,
    queen of heaven, funny hats and the like. None of these things are permitted in
    the New Testament.
     
  9. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein The Uncuckable
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    Oh, okay. :rolleyes:

    Only Protestants believe in Sola Scriptura, anyway. I'm not a Protestant.
     
  10. Left Coast

    Left Coast Circular File Complaint Analyst
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    "Then the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord; the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water."
    Numbers 5:16-17

    Here's Elisha blessing a spring:

    "Now the people of the city said to Elisha, “The location of this city is good, as my lord sees; but the water is bad, and the land is unfruitful.” He said, “Bring me a new bowl, and put salt in it.” So they brought it to him. Then he went to the spring of water and threw the salt into it, and said, “Thus says the Lord, I have made this water wholesome; from now on neither death nor miscarriage shall come from it.” So the water has been wholesome to this day, according to the word that Elisha spoke."
    2 Kings 2:19-22
     
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  11. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    a guy once told me to get holy water you need to boil the hell out of it
     
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  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    @Left Coast and @Dave Watchman...I asked for "Christian" scripture that speaks about holy water, not a specified means to trap an adulteress, prescribed by God in the nation of Israel....or to purify a contaminated water supply. This was not a blessing of any water but a cleansing of drinking water so that the people would not get sick.

    And these were part of Jewish Scripture...not Christian Scripture......
    There were a great many things that were deemed unnecessary when the new covenant was instituted because Gentiles would then be included. Christianity is not Judaism....but in many ways Catholicism copied it for some reason. Christ never taught anything like this....

    In Christianity, there was no Temple, no earthly priesthood, no distinctive garments or headgear, no repetitious liturgy or rituals, no smoke, no alter and no holy water.....just a command to abide by ALL the teachings of Jesus Christ and to preach to all about his Kingdom.... the church failed in every possible way to fulfill that role, but instead imitated the Pharisees whom Jesus condemned.
     
  13. Left Coast

    Left Coast Circular File Complaint Analyst
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    The Tanakh isn't part of your Bible? You asked for Biblical precedent. I gave it to you. :shrug:

    What do you think "blessing" is...? When you ritually purify something, guess what another term for that is?

    Depending on which Gospel you prefer, Jesus was a Torah-observant Jew who never said that blessings or holy water would go away after his death.

    Actually there was, till it was destroyed in 70 CE. Paul in Acts is said to have worshipped and prayed in the Temple and in synagogues.

    You don't believe there were a separate category of clergy in early Christianity? How much do you actually know about early Christianity, from sources other than what the Watchtower has told you?

    Ironically, there wasn't any Bible (other than the Tanakh), but you have no problem using that as your source of information about Christianity. :shrug:

    You realize the earliest house churches we've discovered were modeled on synagogues, yes? The notion that followers of Jesus just dropped all Jewish practice and ritual the minute Jesus died is silly and ahistorical. Ritual, such as consecration and celebration of the Eucharist and baptism, has been part of Christian practice as far back as we have evidence.
     
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    No I said...."Can anyone provide a precedent for the use of "holy water" in any part of Christian scripture......please...."

    The blessing in the case you mentioned was not done BY the water, but TO the water because it was "bad" or contaminated...not fit to drink.
    No one waved holy water over this body of water source to remove the contamination. Elisha used God's spirit to make it fresh. It was not holy water, just drinkable now.

    Those who became Jesus' first disciples were also 'Torah observant Jews', because the Law covenant was still in force......but after Jesus had inaugurated the new covenant on the night before his death, the old covenant was made redundant upon his return to heaven. The Law then became obsolete with only two laws to be in force for Christians...."the Law of Love". (Love of God and neighbor)

    Paul was Jewish...a Pharisee in fact. Jesus' death removed the need for his disciples to attend the Temple for their prescribed sacrifices under the Law. Worship and prayer were still part of Christian worship.

    But as they were in the bad books with the Jews, they were not welcome at the Synagogue. The Temple was destroyed in 70 CE because there was no longer a need for it, and the Jews as a nation had been cast off as God's people.....they were serial covenant breakers. (Read Matthew 23) The Temple has never been rebuilt, so the Jews have had nowhere to offer their sacrifices under the Law, which they still believe is in force. If it was, God would have rebuilt their Temple as he did before...but there has been no Temple for almost 2,000 years now....and still their Messiah has failed to show up.

    There was no "clergy/laity distinction in the first century.....because Jesus said that all the brotherhood were equal. The appointment of a clergy class who were the sole shepherds of the flock came later along with the power trips of the Arch Bishops, lording it over the flock. Then there was the Pope. The office of Pontifex Maximus was a pagan Roman title....nothing to do with Christianity.

    The Tanakh was the Hebrew scriptures, which is the scripture that Jesus and his apostles read and taught from, proving that Jesus was the Christ. There is much that we can learn from the Hebrew scriptures, especially about the prophesies concerning the Messiah.....but the Torah was no longer in force.....After Christianity was established, we also had the Christian scriptures to tell us what the situation was in first century Christianity. We can learn a lot from them too about the activities of the first Christians.

    That was because these were set up for Bible reading and education, so as a model they worked well for Christianity.....what they didn't have was a Temple or large ornate Cathedrals with alters and an earthly priesthood. All mention of priests in Christianity was in heaven at a later time, when Christ would return to gather the remaining ones on earth. Those who had died, he would resurrect "first". (Revelation 20:6)

    Christ's Memorial supper was held on the same night as the Jewish Passover, which was an annual, not a weekly event.
    Baptism was never performed on infants, as these cannot make a commitment to Christ and no one can do it for you. Full immersion was required so this was hardly something you could do to a baby.

    For Christians, it was not a rapid process but a gradual drawing away, because there had to be a period of adjustment with many of the Jewish practices no longer required. It was not easy to come to terms with for many. According to the apostles and older men in Jerusalem, neither Jewish nor Gentile Christians were bound to the Law...they did not have to celebrate the Passover, get circumcised, or hold the Sabbath or their annual festivals because those things were a shadow of heavenly things.

    Acts 15:28-29.....
    "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well."

    These were now the only "essential" things....eating unbled meat, or what was sacrificed to idols, respecting the sanctity of blood and to abstain from fornication were already practiced by Jews taught by God's law, but for Gentiles, these things needed to be observed because none of those things were forbidden in their pagan culture. Adjustments were needed in both camps for them to become one people.
     
  15. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    Thats just pure genius.
     
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  16. Left Coast

    Left Coast Circular File Complaint Analyst
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    This is also what's done to holy water today. The blessing is done TO the water. That's what makes it holy.

    That specific observances of the Torah were considered no longer required by the Pauline sect of early Christianity does not indicate they did away with all ritual. Nor does the New Testament say such a thing.

    Paul worshipped in the Temple and synagogues after his conversion to Christianity. Thus indicating that for the earliest Christians there was no hard and fast distinction for them in how they worshipped before and after Jesus' death. The traditions diverged slowly over time. Never did Christians abandon all ritual as though all ritual is bad.


    That is directly contradicted by the New Testament itself, which identifies subgroups of leaders within the churches as deacons, pastors/priests, and bishops. Apostles were yet another class with authority above the rest. The distinctions and layers of bureaucracy definitely did evolve over time, but the notion that there were no positions of leadership among early Chrstians is supported by zero evidence, even Biblically.

    And there's no indication in any of them that they abandoned all ritual following Jesus' death. :shrug:

    And also for administration of sacraments and worship services. Ie what happens in churches today.

    Actually they did have altars, as well as frescoes adorning the walls with Christian symbols and Biblical scenes. I told you, they were modeled after synongues. You should really do some research on the topic, outside of what your organization tells you.

    Incorrect. The word "priest" is simply an Anglicization of the Greek term presbyter, which is explicitly mentioned as a leadership position in early Christian churches in the New Testament.

    Why are you criticizing things you obviously do not understand and have not researched, Deeje?

    The Bible certainly does not say that, nor do early Christian historians think that's the case either. Agape meals were routine among early Christians, they were not restricted to a single annual holiday. So again, where are you getting this information, if not from your organization?

    You have apparently never seen an Orthodox infant baptism. Also full immersion was not absolutely required, simply preferred (see, for example, the instructions given in The Didache).

    Seriously, please do some actual research on the topic from reputable historical sources rather than just accepting what your organization tells you.

    That much is correct, but none of that indicates that Jesus or the early Christians regarded following the ceremonial aspects of Torah as sinful or any such thing. Colossians 2 says: "Therefore do not let anyone condemn you in matters of food and drink or of observing festivals, new moons, or sabbaths."

    The Pauline tradition was "live and let live" with regard to Torah observance. Yet you've somehow shifted that into believing that not just following the Torah, but literally any ritual observances whatsoever are somehow spiritually problematic. You didn't get that from anywhere in the Bible. Nor again, did the Bible as you know it exist in the 1st century. Nor does the Bible say that everything we do or believe must be derived from the Bible. :shrug:
     
  17. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    Well, good questions. How about turn rain into holy rain and maximise thereby blessings?

    ciao

    - viole
     
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  18. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    It turns into holy steam. And if you freeze it, holy ice, I suppose.

    ciao

    - viole
     
  19. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    And if you drink it and urinate it out what does it become...?
     
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  20. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Do you mean to say that a priest who is granted power by an omnipotent God to bless water is impotent to do it to the whole ocean? Is your God too weak to bless an Ocean or is your priests link to your God too weak?
     
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