Holy Wars, Crusades, Created by God, or by men?

[TripleHelix]

Im making things to complicated????!
What about the wars in Lebanon, thats still raging, and is that not a crusade or a holy war? Mulims? Chrisitan Defense Force, or Chrisitian Command, these are people fighting for their religion. Sure it would be political, but war is war, and losing politically is still losing your lives and faith, or am i wrong. If God wanted you to convert, how would he do it, he would send men to preach it, and if they couldn't do it peacefully, then how else would they do it?

 

[jewscout]

Im making things to complicated????!

no quite the opposite your simplifing a far more complex situation...

What about the wars in Lebanon, thats still raging, and is that not a crusade or a holy war? Mulims? Chrisitan Defense Force, or Chrisitian Command, these are people fighting for their religion. Sure it would be political, but war is war, and losing politically is still losing your lives and faith, or am i wrong. If God wanted you to convert, how would he do it, he would send men to preach it, and if they couldn't do it peacefully, then how else would they do it?

orrrrrrr....its a conflict where the factions are fighting for political control of the country. The Christians and Muslims just happen to be in nice neat little groups based on religion but make no mistake it has nothing to do w/ converting people, it's about who's going to have political control...if this were strictly a religious thing the 2 sides would be trying to convert each other, not grappling for control of government bodies...it has elements of politica, religious, and post-colonialism all in it and is FAR MORE COMPLEX than Christian Vs. Muslim Holy War.

 

[TripleHelix]

OR, is it that people just won't Let it be a holy war. The war in Iraq, for example, extremists cut off a man's head, a helpless man while saying 'God is Great" is that not religious??

 

[robtex]

OR, is it that people just won't Let it be a holy war. The war in Iraq, for example, extremists cut off a man's head, a helpless man while saying 'God is Great" is that not religious??

They are holy war's but God is noticable absent in them. Only man killing man and using God as a justification. If God existed why do you feel he would order man to do his dirty work when he can create natural disasters say like the recent tsunami's?

 

[jewscout]

Welllllllll....the extremists your talking about...most of them are the Sunni muslims who were running the show for decades under Saddam and now find themselves on the outside of political power since the war. They use religion as a rallying point for their cause to get aid from groups like Al Qaeda but their agenda is strictly political...Saddam wasn't even a religious man, he was a secular military dictator that's why we supported him during the Iraq-Iran war as an alternative to the religious fundamentalism of Iran...
Even in Iran the reason for the rise of the Ayatolah was because of the backlash against the Shah, his allegiance to America and the fact that he sat on a golden thrown while his people starved...it had nothing to do w/ religion but religion can, in the foreground, be a highly motivating factor...
much of what is going on in the middle east can be traced back to colonialism much as what is going on in africa today...
Religion can be unifying force but crack open a couple of history books and you find that more often than not it goes back to a different agenda...

Look at the KKK, they use christianity as a way of making themselves out to be the good guys. And for many years that tactic worked, good G-d fearing white people holding up traditional christian values...but their agenda was simple, it was to place blacks back in thier place as subserviant to whites....it was a struggle for socio-economic-political power in the post-civil war era and christianity was the carrot on the stick...

 

[michel]

And here's another slant on the subject (English Historical)​

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Holy Wars
Modern people often regard the idea of a holy war as a contradiction. Killing thousands of people and causing wholesale destruction seems to be as far from holiness as one can get.​

But religion and war have gone hand in hand for a long time. Armies go into battle believing that God is with them, often after prayers and sacrifices to keep God on their side. In tribal cultures (including Biblical ones) when a people lose a war they often have to change to the worship of the winner's gods.
​

However involving God as part of the campaign does not make a war a holy war - for a war to be a holy war, religion has to be the driving force.
​

Holy wars usually have three elements:
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• the achievement of a religious goal​
• authorised by a religious leader​
• a spiritual reward for those who take part​

Many of the wars fought in the name of religion do conform to the just war conditions, but not all of them.
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Religious causes
Francis Bacon said there were five causes for holy war: (he wrote in a Christian context, but the categories would be usable by any faith)
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• to spread the faith​
• to retrieve countries that were once Christian, even though there are no Christians left there​
• to rescue Christians in countries that were once Christian from "the servitude of the infidels"​
• recover and purify consecrated places that are presently being "polluted and profaned"​
• avenge blasphemous acts, or cruelties and killings of Christians (even if these took place long ago)​

Only the first of these causes is completely outside the scope of the conventional idea of a just cause. Some of the other causes, because of the length of time that can pass since the offending act took place are probably not just causes either.
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Lawful authority
The legitimate authority for a holy war is not the government of a state (except in a theocracy) but the Church, or the relevant organisation or person who heads the religious institution concerned.
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In ancient times the authority was often God - in the Bible there are several occasions where God gave direct instructions to peoples to wage war. This would not be the case today.
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Personal reward
The third condition of a holy war is a spiritual reward for those who take part. The doctrine of the just war does not refer to any personal rewards for the participants - and such rewards would be against such a generally austere doctrine.
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History
The first holy warwas probably in October 312 CE when the Roman emperor Constantine saw a vision of the cross in the sky with this inscription "in hoc signo vinces" (in this sign you will win).
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Constantine trusted the vision and had the cross inscribed on his soldiers' armor. Even though his forces were outnumbered, he won the battle against an army that was using pagan enchantment. (Historians regard this as a turning point in Christianity's fortune.)
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The Crusades
The great series of western holy wars were the Crusades, which lasted from 1095 until 1291 CE. The aim was to capture the sacred places in the Holy Land from the Muslims who lived there, so it was intended as a war to right wrongs done against Christianity.
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The first Crusade was started by Pope Urban II in 1095. He raged at the capture of the holy places and the treatment given to Christians, and ordered a war to restore Christianity. He said that the war would have the support of God:
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"Let this be your war-cry in combats, because this word is given to you by God. When an armed attack is made upon the enemy, let this one cry be raised by all the soldiers of God: It is the will of God! It is the will of God!"

"...Whoever shall determine upon this holy pilgrimage and shall make his vow to God to that effect and shall offer himself to Him as a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, shall wear the sign of the cross of the Lord on his forehead or on his breast."
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The pope also absolved all who took part in the crusade of all their sins.
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The first Crusade captured Jerusalem after bitter fighting, and the residents of the city were brutalised and slaughtered by the Christian invaders. The invaders' conduct breached the principles of modern just war ethics, and the massacres still colour Islamic politics today.
​

 

[jewscout]

Good info michel but again i point out that the crusades were more complex than just a "religious war"...

Political considerations were also important. The Crusades were a response to appeals for help from the Byzantine Empire, threatened by the advance of the Seljuk Turks. The year 1071 had seen both the capture of Jerusalem and the decisive defeat of the Byzantine army at Manzikert, creating fear of further Turkish victories. In addition, the hopes of the Papacy for the reunification of East and West, the nobility's hunger for land at a time of crop failures, population pressure in the West, and an alternative to warfare at home were major impulses.

The Crusades were equally a result of economic circumstances. Many participants were lured by the fabulous riches of the East; a campaign abroad appealed as a means of escaping from the pressures of feudal society, in which the younger sons in a family often lacked economic opportunities. On a larger scale, the major European powers and the rising Italian cities (Genoa, Pisa, and Venice) saw the Crusades as a means of establishing and extending trade routes.

http://website.lineone.net/~ssleightholm/dict/glossary/crusade.htm

 

[michel]

Hi jewscout;

I can see what you are getting at, but how can we truly be certain of the motives; different historians are, after all, each one biassed.
I was looking at http://www.chronique.com/Library/MedHistory/charlemagne.htm, which seems to bear out your argument; however, look at :-http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03610c.htm, which shows adifferent slant on the Argument.

As always, the source will determine the approach to the argument.......

 

[jewscout]

Hi jewscout;

I can see what you are getting at, but how can we truly be certain of the motives; different historians are, after all, each one biassed.
I was looking at http://www.chronique.com/Library/MedHistory/charlemagne.htm, which seems to bear out your argument; however, look at :-http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03610c.htm, which shows adifferent slant on the Argument.

As always, the source will determine the approach to the argument.......

Exactly michel! Why i love history so much! There's always more than one opinion on the matter...

 

[Mossburg32908]

these wars I think are by men. we are here trying to do what god asks of us, not him controling us.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

War is man's doing. Both physically and karmicly. (I think I just made up a word) What I mean is man was given free will. They chose to fight and kill creating negative karma that creates waves of the same. (something like that)

 

[robtex]

War is man's doing. Both physically and karmicly. (I think I just made up a word) What I mean is man was given free will. They chose to fight and kill creating negative karma that creates waves of the same. (something like that)

If negative karma begets negative karma are you saying God is karma and as such he creates negative consequences for war mongers that results in the despair that might lead to further war? I think that is what I just read from you and I did understand it right wouldn't that be saying that God and man jointly cause war?

 

[Dr. Khan]

What if my religious beliefs cause every man womam and child give up their guns. What if at the coming of the Lord so much fear and dread enter into the hearts of all them who posses guns that they give them up turn them in, have them destroyed; including the nations of the earth. What if so much fear enter into the hearts of them in government, that they race to get rid of their weapons, even to suspend the manufacture of weapons and begin the process of weapons destructions. Well, because there is no greater nation in the earth to judge our nation as we judged Saddam Insane for his unlawful invasion of Kuwait, then God will have to judge our nation himself. In fact the judgment has already begun. We shall likely disperse our wealth into all the nations of the world. :woohoo: This is all very exciting to me, I consider myself a spectator, beholding this great specticle. All nations (people) shall observe our great hypocrites, and say:tsk: :tsk: :tsk:

 

[Master Vigil]

I'm not sure if the prospect of a non-existent god judging the world is going to fear too many people Khan. I too wish everyone would put down their guns, I just don't feel a simple un-proven concept could even come close to achieve that. Instead, it only breeds more violence and hatred because people fight to prove their god is the only god, their god is the one who will judge, their god, their god, their god... etc... I believe the world would be much more peaceful if tolerance and respect were more important than "god."

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

If negative karma begets negative karma are you saying God is karma and as such he creates negative consequences for war mongers that results in the despair that might lead to further war? I think that is what I just read from you and I did understand it right wouldn't that be saying that God and man jointly cause war?

Karma is not God, or punishment/reward from God. It is a law of nature. Cause and effect, but on a level that is different than physical science can measure. The commandments were given to use to help us know the biggest of the Karma Makers, and they were not given as a demand from God. They were given to us because Moses wanted to know how he could teach his people to be closer to God.

 

[TripleHelix]

3 Things, Great writings everybody *(barring a few)
1. That's why they call it faith, Master Vigil. They would fight wars for a God that many people do not belive in because they have this crazy concept called "FAITH"
2. As was written on Page 3, it is said that though people think wars are terrible, if the war is Just, then it is a good war.
3. Who are we, humans to say No to war. Wars have been fought for centuries. just because humanity is progressing dosen't mean ideals and courage are going to go away.

 

[Master Vigil]

3 Things, Great writings everybody *(barring a few)
1. That's why they call it faith, Master Vigil. They would fight wars for a God that many people do not belive in because they have this crazy concept called "FAITH"

So faith is what destroys the world. I knew it all along.

One way to test a faith, if it involves war and murder, it's not a good faith.

2. As was written on Page 3, it is said that though people think wars are terrible, if the war is Just, then it is a good war.

There is no just war, there is no just in killing. I wonder why our just wars don't stop future wars. Perhaps because they aren't necessary, and all they do is breed more violence.

3. Who are we, humans to say No to war. Wars have been fought for centuries. just because humanity is progressing dosen't mean ideals and courage are going to go away.

Oh yeah, who are we to say no to rape, murder, theft, etc... people have been doing it for centuries. Just because humanity is progressing doesn't mean our instincts are going away.

 

[TripleHelix]

Yet, Master Vigil, Religion is not what destroys a world. Having faith in God and waging war in his name are not horrible, terrible things. What a person here on Earth does is what kills and or "ruins" the earth. We are all just almost worthless beings. There have been millions before us and millions after, and we will all make a difference in a way. No one man is going to stop war.
Who are we to judge wars, or even if a faith that fights all the time is a good faith. As I said before, we are nothing compared to God, and though i hate to say it Satan, and they are the ones who guide our courses, and God is all that matters. We are nothing compared to them.

 

[Master Vigil]

I would definitely say waging war in god's name is horrible and terrible. Especially since I believe war is one of the farthest thing from godliness. No one being is worthless, not even almost. I am sad you view everyone this way. I would want the millions of come after me to have a world to live in with no wars, fought in the name of someones god or not.

Since I don't believe god causes wars, and they are simply human actions, I definitely say we can judge them. A god that guides us into war is not a god I want to be associated with.

 

[almifkhar]

war is based on nothing more than profit and greed. religion is in the hearts and minds of many, many people. i think that these so called holy wars are created by fat cats who want something over there and realized many years ago that using religion was a good way to go about getting what they wanted. it is a good way to get people to fight and risk their lives, it is a good way to divide and conquer the people of the land that the war mongers want, and it is a good way to crush and humble the people who are losing. so based on this idea i would have to say that killing in the name of is done by man and man alone.