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Holy Wars, Crusades, Created by God, or by men?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by TripleHelix, Mar 5, 2005.

  1. TripleHelix

    TripleHelix Member

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    What do you think?
    Did men create these wars at the Will of God, or did they simply wage humanistic wars?
    It is my belief that all Holy Wars, provoked by men and not God, will fail.
     
  2. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    I feel holy wars were not gods command. And were formed from human egotistical arrogance and greed.
     
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  3. Saw11_2000

    Saw11_2000 Well-Known Member

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    ^I feel the same way, just except I don't believe they were created by God, because God does not exist, in my thinking.
     
  4. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    All wars are created by men. It is one of the greatest travesties that man tortures, kills, maims rapes, steals and humiliates those of another culture led by the inspriation of their war Gods, modern or ancient.

    A God that is all powerful or at least as powerful as required to make a world does not need a tribe of followers to kill on his behalf to invoke change. A God that can create things via his will does not need man to shape what he has created.

    For every man killed in the name of God's today yesterday and tomarrow there is a person with an ulteior motive and a need for a justification. Maybe it's not the guy carrying the gun or the sword but there is a gain for someone and the gain was factored in. Blaming God for an aciton done by mankind makes as much sense as blaming man for a disater done by nature.

    If you kill your neighbor because his/her beliefs were different, raped a village woman, murdered a village child or stolen a person' land and belongs on differnces in belief...than you chose to do take what your God has given that person and you are the only person responsible for that deed.
     
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  5. TripleHelix

    TripleHelix Member

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    True to a point. What about trying to defend your religion? Think about it, when the Original Crusades were launched, they were because the Muslims to the East, who were once peaceful and productive were overthrown by their converts, the Turks. Then they won so much land that they finally had to wage war. What do you think of a situation like that?
     
  6. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    Than that is your justification. the defense of your religion. Not of your god. Truth be told if your god is so powerful and awe inspiring should he be protecting you not the other way around?
     
  7. Quoth The Raven

    Quoth The Raven Half Arsed Muse

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    Think of Job. He was pretty much the most devout guy around and he was still tested, wasn't he. If you'll fight in defence of your religion then you must truly believe it. God isn't sticking up for you because you need to be out there proving that you believe.
    If you're having a stoush because God told you to, well, half the time God's been in the ear of the other bloke as well. So you have 2 opposing teams,both doing Gods will. Either God's playing both ends against the middle, or both sides are just looking for an excuse and the big fella is handy.
     
  8. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    There is no religion which advocates war. Whenever war is being waged in the name of religion, you can be assured that religion is being perverted and used as a rallying cry for the masses.
     
  9. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    The Crusades and their failure should have taught that economic greed and desire for political prominence can lead to fanaticism and massacre. But the lesson has been ignored. The evidence lies in the many conflicts that have continued to stain many parts of our planet with blood. In these, religion often serves as a front for abominations.




    Not for much longer though. Very soon the spirit that fostered the Crusades and that continues to foster modern-day "holy" wars will pass away along with all false religion and the whole system subject to the domination of Satan.—Psalm 46:8, 9; 1 John 5:19; Revelation 18:4, 5, 24.

     
  10. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    No, I don't believe the Crusades were the will of God. The Crusades came as a result of the Roman Emperor calling for help against Turkish invaders (Constantinople would eventually fall to them). Nothing came of it initially, but the Muslims began systematically killing Christian pilgrams and destroying holy sites to compound the odd invasion. The need for some defense and the killing of pilgrams coupled together for the Pope to give a call, and the armies to be raised.

    The cheiftans of the Germanic tribes in Western Europe saw a pretty good chance to make some cash, so they took off to conquer the Holy Land. When they got there, they setup shop and formed nice little kingdoms, and made war against others in the same way they did in Western Europe, namely sign a peace treaty while you raise an army to kill your neighbor :p.

    In the end, it wasn't just Muslims who were killed by Crusaders, but Eastern Christians (both Chalcedonian and Non-Chalcedonian) and Jews. Their sacking of Constantinople is a large part of what finally put the nail in the Roman Empire's coffin. Thus, the Crusades weren't exactly a "Christianity vs. Islam" thing. I tend to view it as a "religious" war with the purpose of exporting Western European politics of the time to other lands.
     
  11. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    No* besides crusades does man create war or does God command it of his followers or both?
     
  12. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Since I believe the OT, I do believe in the Conquest...but that's a pretty limited list, and if anyone told me that they believe that "God told them to go to war," I'd be pretty quick to apply the label "dangerous quack" to them :).
     
  13. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    James 4:1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? 2 You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

    Since the First Century, ALL wars have been the result of man's arrogance. MV and I don't always agree, but I feel his post was AWESOME.
     
  14. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    War is killing. Killing another human being is against the rules of all religions. That means that war is created by man.:)
     
  15. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    Thanks NetDoc. Atleast we agree on some of the more important things. :)
     
  16. bookman2

    bookman2 New Member

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    Jehovah in the Old Testament and stated that he would teach his people war. In the spring of the years the tribal sheiks to took their men and raided the agriculture communities surrounding the desert. They brought back loot and slaves ten percent of this was given to God.
     
  17. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    What is your point bookman?
     
  18. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    GOD does not ask humans to do anything that GOD cannot DO him/herself.
    GOD does not interfere with our human lives.
    GOD does not punish or judge or enact revenge.

    GOD does not murder or take away lives.
     
  19. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    TripleHelix i think your simplifying a far more complex event in history. The Crusades, though involving religion in the foreground, had more to do w/ politics between the two forms of christianity at the time and Rome's attempt to make Byzantium kneel to it's power...
    political and economic power struggles cleverly disguised under the guise of faith...
     
  20. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    none:D
     
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