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Featured Holy Moses.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by John D. Brey, Dec 1, 2022.

  1. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    The angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, "I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land that I swore to give to your forefathers."

    Judges 2:1.​

    Someone could asks, Who then delivered Israel from Egypt? Moses, Nehushtan (aka Moses' serpent-rod נחש–תנין), or the angel of the Lord. We've got a veritable trinity of would-be manifesters of the god-head (Moses, the serpent-rod, and the angel of the Lord). C. I. Scofield goes into some depth concerning the "angel of the lord" found in Judges 2:1:

    (1). He is named "the angel of the Lord [Jehovah]" (Gen. 16:7), "the angel of God" (Gen. 21:17), "The angel of his [God's] presence" (Isa. 63:9), and probably "the messenger [angel" of the covenant" (Mal. 3:1).​

    Concerning this particular angel, Scofield goes on to note the importance of the fact that:

    (2) He is clearly identified with the Lord himself in His self-manifestation to men. In Gen. 31:11-13 the angel said to Jacob, "I am the God of Bethel." In Ex. 3:2-6 the same angel said to Moses, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham."​

    Furthermore, and more to the point:

    (3) Divine attributes and prerogatives are ascribed to this angel. He said to Hagar, "I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count" (Gen. 16:10), and Hagar spoke of him as the all-seeing God (v. 13). Jacob referred to him as "the angel who has delivered me from all harm" (Gen. 48:16). The place where the angel appeared was holy ground and he was to be worshiped (Ex. 3:5-6), whereas worship is sternly forbidden in the case of ordinary angels (Rev. 22:8-9). "The angel of the Lord" was keeper of Israel, and his voice had to be obeyed, for the name of God was in him (Ex. 23:20-23).​

    The last statement and verse (Ex. 23:20-23) is the crux of the matter so far as these things are concerned since it speaks point blank of the "angel of the Lord" ----but also of Hashem as being in, behind, or somehow intimately united with the "angel of the Lord," i.e., they're distinct in some manner of thinking required to digest, know, what's hidden in the "angel of the Lord" motif. Finally, and importantly:

    (4) In Jud. 13:18 the angel referred to his name as "beyond understanding" or, literally, "wonderful", and Isa. 9:6 gives this name to the predicted Messiah of Israel. Malachi affirmed that "the Lord" who would "suddenly . . . come to his temple" would also be "the messenger [angel] of the covenant" (3:1). The identification of this angel with our Lord harmonizes with His distinctive function in relation to the Godhead, for He is the eternal Word through whom the invisible god speaks and manifests himself (Jn. 1:1:18).​

    Two things stand out like a sore thumb or other organ (by the way, in Hebrew "milah" means "word"). First is the fact that the name the angel says is "beyond understanding" or "wonderful," perhaps hidden נצרות (Isa. 48:6), is stated to be the name of Messiah, therein directly linking Messiah and the angel of the Lord by name. Secondly, Scofield's last statement quotes John 1:18 whereby the manifestation in the crosshairs, i.e., the crux of the exegesis, is said to be "in the bosom of the Father."



    John
     
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  2. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    This "in the bosom of the Father" segues into the heart of the triune manifestation of the godhead (Moses, Nehushtan, and the angel of the Lord) since in one of the strangest passages in the scripture, i.e., after Moses bemoans that Israel will need proof he's seen God, after which God gives him proof, in type, ala the portable theophany Nehushtan (the serpent rod נחש–תנין), God then tells Moses to place Nehushtan, which is in his right hand, into "his bosom" where this potentially messianic manifestation of the Lord (and one aspect of the triune revelation of deity) becomes leprous, therein making Moses, in this particular manifestation of the godhead, the symbolic head of the godhead (Exodus 7:1). Moses places the messianic-manifestation of God into his bosom where it becomes leprous, as the text says, to establish a sign for Israel that they, Israel, so the text says, might not even accept this particular manifestation until the leprous aspect of this aspect of the godhead is, when removed from the bosom of God/Moses, made whole again.

    When someone gets rolling on gematria in the scripture, particularly as it relates to verse numbers and such, some wiseacre usually points out the the numbering system of verses isn't canonical, sacred, or holy. But neither is Moses' or God's butt (since Moses can spy God's butt, or backside, without fear of dying), and Moses, in all his holiness, had to use the loo like any other ordinary loon.

    In John 1:18, the disciple relates the crucifix with Nehushtan thereby implying that as Moses (representing God) places his right hand (with the manifestation of the godhead in it), into his bosom, so too, God the Father has Jesus of Nazareth in his right hand, and thus his bosom (so John tells us), while the Nazarene נצרות is undergoing his own leprous and diseased purification process.

    Once Messiah is lifted up on a spit like a common beast of the field שדי, like a lamb of God אל שדי, perhaps even a Passover lamb that's lifted while being roasted by the sores of leprosy, the reader of scripture not taken to guarding any particular human tradition of interpretation would be wont to want to picture God the Father placing the branch in his right hand (the crucifix) into his bosom as a fitting archetype of Moses, acting on God's be-half (or third) placing the burning-branch, Nehushtan, into his own bosom where it's called "leprous."



    John
     
    #2 John D. Brey, Dec 1, 2022
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  3. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    The gematria comes into the picture when it's implied that Messiah is like a Passover lamb lifted, roasted, on a spit. And further, that this Messianic lamb of God אל שדי, is placed, leprous no less, into the bosom of God (John 1:18).

    The Name of God aka "Shaddai" שדי is not only the Name of God directly related to sacerdotal bleeding flesh, brit milah, ala Genesis 17 (which is the first case of the Name Shaddai שדי, and the first case of that sacerdotal bleeding of flesh, brit milah), but, ironically, the word "Shaddai" שדי (shin-dalet-yod), is the Hebrew word for "field" in the Tanakh's term "beast of the field." "El Shaddai" manifests God as a beast of the field: a lamb. The name of God associated with a beast of the field, and also leprous, bleeding, purification of flesh (brit milah), is, in gematria, the number 314 (shin=300, dalet=4, yod=10: 314).

    When we go to John, the John who claims Messiah lies (in truth) in repose, in the "bosom of the Father," that is, when we go to John 314 (3:14), which is the gematria for "Shaddai: the Lamb of God" we shant be too surprised to read:

    As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up.

    John 3:14 (John שדי).​



    John
     
    #3 John D. Brey, Dec 1, 2022
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  4. River Sea

    River Sea Member

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    Would this also apply if Moses came from Indus Valley? What is a serpent?
     
  5. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    Um. I'm sorry but this is false. The angel said nothing. The angel was the fire, the speaking was God.

    1 Moses was pasturing the flocks of Jethro, his father in law, the chief of Midian, and he led the flocks after the free pastureland, and he came to the mountain of God, to Horeb.

    2 An angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from within the thorn bush, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, but the thorn bush was not being consumed.

    3 So Moses said, "Let me turn now and see this great spectacle why does the thorn bush not burn up?"

    4 The Lord saw that he had turned to see, and God called to him from within the thorn bush, and He said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am!"​
    Also false. This source seems to be no good.

    5 And He [God] said, "Do not draw near here. Take your shoes off your feet, because the place upon which you stand is holy soil."
    6 And He [God] said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look toward God.​

    Where God spoke is holy an God should be worshipped. Ahhhhh, doesn't that sound better? much more Jewish, and it's actually true to the text.

    So, Hagar's experience is irrelevent. How God reveals itself to her might be a little different since she was cast out.

    For Jacob, no, he is not referring to the angel as God. He blessing his children, invokes God and asks for an angel to protect his sons.

    15 And he blessed Joseph and said, "God, before Whom my fathers, Abraham and Isaac, walked, God Who sustained me as long as I am alive, until this day,
    16 may the angel who redeemed me from all harm bless the youths, and may they be called by my name and the name of my fathers, Abraham and Isaac, and may they multiply abundantly like fish, in the midst of the land."
    False. It is God's voice that needs to be obeyed. The later verse clariies the earlier verse. This is SOP.

    20 Behold, I am sending an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared.
    21 Beware of him and obey him; do not rebel against him, for he will not forgive your transgression, for My Name is within him.
    22 For if you hearken to his voice and do all that I say, I will hate your enemies and oppress your adversaries.​

    And then in case there's any ambiguity.


    23 For My angel will go before you, and bring you to the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivvites, and the Jebusites, and I will destroy them.
    24 You shall not prostrate yourself before their gods, and you shall not worship them, and you shall not follow their practices, but you shall tear them down and you shall utterly shatter their monuments.
    25 And you shall worship the Lord, your God, and He will bless your food and your drink, and I will remove illness from your midst.
    So, no one is worshipping angels. There's a hard line in the sand between this angel an the Lord.
    Um. That's one word in the name in Isaiah. Kinda weak.
    Well, that's false.

    1 Behold I send My angel, and he will clear a way before Me. And suddenly, the Lord Whom you seek will come to His Temple. And behold! The angel of the covenant, whom you desire, is coming, says the Lord of Hosts.​

    Just one word matching of a rather lengthy title in Isaiah...
     
  6. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    Yup, that's gonna be a problem
    Nope, that doesn't help.
     
  7. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    OK, I'm intrigued. Well said.
     
  8. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    Beast of the field is "הַשָּׂדֶ֔ה אֲשֶׁ֥ר" per Genesis 3:1. So that's another obstacle.

    In Psalms, examples are "בַּֽהֲמ֥וֹת שָׂדָֽי" ( Psalm 8:7 ) and "זִ֥יז שָֹ֜דַ֗י" ( Psalm 50:11 ). So in Psalms it's a 2 word combo, "שָֹ֜דַ֗י" means "field".
     
  9. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    Cute. :)
     
  10. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "Exodus 7:1( Israelite Scripture), John 1:18 (Gospels) "

    Isn't it an illusion that the Israelite Scriptures and the Pauline NT Gospels are one “Unified whole”, and one of them explains the other, right?
    (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah never did it, did He, please?
    If yes, then kindly quote from Yeshua in this regards in an unequivocal, straightforward and unambiguous manner, please, right?

    Regards
    _______________
    Note for the “Religion: Christian or Christianity”, please:
    "(Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah did not and could not die a cursed death on the Cross", to atone the sins of anybody, one gets to know from many clues in the Gospels itself, please. Right?
     
  11. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Right. What I was getting at is that the "God" אל of the "field" שדי, is the "lamb of God," or the "God lamb" if you prefer. A lamb being a beast of the field. The God of the field אל שדי is a lamb.

    If someone protests that I'm reading too much into "אל שדי," i.e., that there's no lamb there, then I'd have to break it down for them by pointing out that "lamb" is שה, while "Shaddai" is שדי.

    My interlocutor might be scratching his head at that unless he's aware that Hebrew letters are constructed of other Hebrew letters. The heh, in shin-heh שה is made up of a dalet with a yod under it. The dalet is a "door" or "veil," and the yod is the mark of circumcision according to the sages. So when the mark of circumcision is hidden under the veil of the flesh (uncircumcision) we see only an ordinary beast of the field, a lamb, שה, but when the veil is removed, the dalet pulled back so the yod is freed of it, we see that the lamb, שה is Shaddai שדי. When we pull the wool back that was over our uncircumcised eyes we see that Shaddai is the Lamb of God.


    John
     
    #11 John D. Brey, Dec 1, 2022
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  12. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    So now you're saying Paul wrote the Gospels? You seem obsessed with Paul; seeing him everywhere. Perhaps you're hiding a heretical affection for him from yourself? :D



    John
     
    #12 John D. Brey, Dec 1, 2022
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  13. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    The preposition ב tends to imply that the angel appeared to him "in" a flame of fire. In verse 4, we read that Hashem יהוה saw that Moses looked to see. And then, God אלהים (Gevurah) called unto him. Rashi, et. al., points out that אלהים is the left hand, the judgment element (Gevurah), of the Godhead, as distinct from Hashem. Hashem notices that Moses looks to see . . . but Gevurah, אלהים, speaks to Moses.

    So again, we have the triune nature of the revelation. Gevurah אלהים, Hashem יהוה, and the angel of Hashem מלאך יהוה. The angel of Hashem appears. Gevurah speaks. And Hashem observes.



    John



     
  14. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Much depends on how specific the exegete wants to be about divine names. What׳s the difference between Hashem יהוה, the angel of Hashem מלאך יהוה, and Gevurah אלהים? For that matter we could throw in אל שדי.

    Because these words are of divine origin, and because God is not willy nilly, or the author of confusion, surely we should assume various names or titles of God are meant to infer some kind of variation?

    Verse 5 continues Gevurah אלהים speaking. But the angel of the Lord מלאך יהוה "appeared." And Hashem יהוה was invisible and silent.


    John
     
  15. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Even as you have it in English, verse 21 appears to be Hashem telling Moses to "obey" the angel of the Hashem?

    How would you interpret verse 22: Hearken to his voice, and do all that I say? ----What's the distinction between voice קל and what Hashem says? Does Hashem have a tangible voice קל? Or might he communicate apart from the tangible sound that moves the mechanical eardrums?

    Angels appear to be capable of interacting, moving and shaking, the physical world: actually moving the eardrums of their audience. Do you believe God acts in the physical world without requiring mediators able to transgress the chasm between pure deity and the created world? Can anyone see God with their fleshly eyes, or hear God with their fleshly ears? Angels can be seen and heard with the fleshly organs of empirical observation. But with God himself, must some mediation take place that allows him to remain intangible, non-incarnate?

    The seminal question could be said to be why God needs to send an angel to guard Israel? Why can't he do it himself? And if he needs an angel to guard, what else does he require angelic mediation in order to get done? Or is angelic mediation merely language of accommodation to accommodate our lack of understanding?

    Maybe he can only communicate through his spirit to those with ears to hear spiritual things? And maybe outside of that, much is left to angelic messengers and mediators to act on his behalf.

    Could you, for the sake of argument, imagine a case where Hashem could communicate a spiritual secret to a man like Moses (or the prophets) that he's hidden even from angelic messengers, or that can't even be communicated through that form of (angelic) mediation? Imagine if Moses and the prophets must attempt to share a secret with other men, that's hidden from the principalities and powers in the air. Maybe Moses is under great duress knowing that if he communicates too nakedly he's in danger of coming under the hand of an angel of death? What was Moses trying to communicate by striking the Rock? He was forbidden from entering the holy land for that crime, taken to the top of a mountain to die by the kiss of the angel of Hashem.

    If Moses gave his life to break the stone tablets, or to strike the Rock, then we'd be pretty remiss not to receive his message in a bottle. Ditto for most of the other prophets, many of whom died trying to tell us something we might not even want to hear. That's why we either stone them in a statue, or imprison them in a Torah ark, gold-leaf and formaldehyde, or a rose window in a cathedral where they can be seen and not heard.




    John
     
    #15 John D. Brey, Dec 1, 2022
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  16. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    The problem with these sorts of derivations, similar to son-of-man, there's yet another double meaning. A שד is a demon, and שדי means demonic, literally.
    Screenshot_20221201_212359.jpg
     
  17. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    In the word demon שד, the mark of circumcision, the yod, is completely covered up. In lamb, it's barely visible under the woolen veil, such that only when the lamb is shorn, the veil torn down the middle, do we get to spy Shaddai.

    Before his circumcision Abraham could not fully apprehend God because his body was still encased in the demonic shell, the foreskin covering the phallus.

    Elliot R. Wolfson, Vision of God, and Textual Interpretation: From Midrashic Trope to Mystical Symbol.



    John
     
  18. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    In its generic sense, the term "son of man" means someone born to a mother and thus a member of the human race. But in the messianic-sense, it means "son of Adam." Adam's prelapse son. Just one. And since Adam was pregnant prior to the creation of Eve, and prior to the original sin, his true firstborn was stillborn. But he's still born. How, is the greatest story never told. :D


    John
     
  19. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    Again, there's a confusion with a double meaning. Yes, Elohim represents the gevurah, and comes from the left. But that's not all Elohim means. Elohim represents the forces of nature. This is a well known gematria. Elohim = HaTeva.
    אלהים = 1 + 30 + 5 + 10 + 40 = 86
    86 = 5 + 9 + 2 + 70 = הטבע

    Here's the google search results for "elohim equals hateva": Link. It's a real thing.

    So, again going back to the text.

    Verse 2: Moses sees an angel in the fire.
    Verse 3: Moses examines it further
    Verse 4: Moses hears the forces of nature speaking to him. Moses answers. Contact has been established. This is God, described as Elohim.
    Verse 5: The forces of nature say, take off your shoes.
    Verse 6: The voice of the forces of nature introduces itself further as the God of Moses' ancestors. Moses is shocked and awed and prostrates. Contact *and* submission established.
    Verse 7: YHVH speaks

    What's happening is a pogressive revelation almost like a conversion. The lowest level of revelation is an angel. Then increased revelation is God described as Elohim, in command of the forces of nature ( a bush the burns but is not consumed ), and then maximum revelation is achieved communicating with YHVH the one who was, is, and will be, the eternal.

    The connection to gevurah is that God as described as Elohim is in command of nature. commanding nature is gevurah. Command is a restrictive action. Restrictive is left is gevurah.
    God always exists everywhere in all manner of its attributes. How a person perceives God is what changes. Kind of like putting on 3-d glasses. Some prophets at some times will be able to shift their awareness to the point of realizing God as forces of nature, another may perceive God as infinte, another may perceive it as the leader of an angelic horde, or perhaps the source of love, and light, and life. Each of these constructs has pros and cons, but all of them communicate some form of infinitude.

    Even the more down to earth God as commanding the forces of nature is beyond comprehension. This is a God commanding quantum mechanics, and gravity, and the big bang, and nuclear weapons. Is there any end to the discoveries that will be made in science? And this is description of God is able to reverse these natural laws. And if the laws cease? God remains.

    An angel though, is a created being, has a job to do then vanishes. It's the opposite of infinite. It's a vector of divine will. Not a god.
    YHVH, יהוה, speaks in verse 7. I'm not sure how you missed it.

    ז וַיֹּ֣אמֶר יְהֹוָ֔ה רָאֹ֥ה רָאִ֛יתִי אֶת־עֳנִ֥י עַמִּ֖י אֲשֶׁ֣ר בְּמִצְרָ֑יִם וְאֶת־צַֽעֲקָתָ֤ם שָׁמַ֨עְתִּי֙ מִפְּנֵ֣י נֹֽגְשָׂ֔יו כִּ֥י יָדַ֖עְתִּי אֶת־מַכְאֹבָֽיו

    7 And the LORD said, "I have surely seen the affliction of My people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their cry because of their slave drivers, for I know their pains.
     
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  20. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    Yup. That's why I said that it was a good example among the other rubbish.
    God communicating with Moses is all cerebral. In a dream we hear people talking, but there's no real sound. That's how I understand it. Can God communicate aubibly? I vote yes. But I don't think that's what happens with prophets. Can anyone communicate with God? Do they need to meditate... or something. I honestly don't know. My best guess is that there is more than one way. This is from the varience in the experiences documented of the prophets. Different sorts of revelation, not all Jewish, so that suggests a mash-up.

    "What's the distinction between voice קל and what Hashem says?" The angel says "VaYomer YHVH". That's it's voice. Then YHVH's will is expressed as a command to be obeyed.
    Isaiah 55:8-9
    Nah. That puts God in a box. God is beyond all limits.
    That is an extremely lofy idea. I'm not sure I can reach it. Perhaps if it marinates for a while.
     
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