Holy Koran and Facts

[BruceDLimber]

Meaning no offense, I have to question your statement because if you had indeed been here since 1972, you'd know not to put a "the" in front of Christianity.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Unes]

Correct me if i am wrong but didn't the corruption happen before or even during the canonization ?so the Old and new testaments available to the prophet were already corrupted.

Hello Kai,
The point here is not the validity of the Holy Bible.
Whatever was canonized in the Holy Bible on 329 AD, Prophet Mohammad comes around on 610 AD, and he looks at the Holy Bible, and he condones it as word of God, without understanding its content. At the same time he rejects Trinity as blasphemy. This is one of the contradictions which I have pointed out so far and there are a lot more.

Meaning no offense, I have to question your statement because if you had indeed been here since 1972, you'd know not to put a "the" in front of Christianity.

Hello Bruce,
Thank you for correction.

However, I wrote: “In advance I wish to thank my readers for tolerating the short-comings of my novice writings.”
I am sorry that you could not tolerate the short-coming of my novice writing! Even though I have been living in the US for 37 years! I know, a teenager can write better than I do! I am sure if I was younger when I migrated to US then my English would have been more natural!

May God Bless Us ALL
Unes

 

[England my lionheart]

Hello Kai,
The point here is not the validity of the Holy Bible.
Whatever was canonized in the Holy Bible on 329 AD, Prophet Mohammad comes around on 610 AD, and he looks at the Holy Bible, and he condones it as word of God, without understanding its content. At the same time he rejects Trinity as blasphemy. This is one of the contradictions which I have pointed out so far and there are a lot more.


Hello Bruce,
Thank you for correction.

However, I wrote: “In advance I wish to thank my readers for tolerating the short-comings of my novice writings.”
I am sorry that you could not tolerate the short-coming of my novice writing! Even though I have been living in the US for 37 years! I know, a teenager can write better than I do! I am sure if I was younger when I migrated to US then my English would have been more natural!

May God Bless Us ALL
Unes

I don't see a problem with this i think we all understand what you are saying.:yes:

 

[Unes]

Who recited the Holy Koran?

[4:82] Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.

Who is the author of Holy Koran; God, or Angel Gabriel, or Prophet Mohammad? Prophet Mohammad claimed that Angel Gabriel appeared to him in a cave when he was alone and he was meditating. Angel Gabriel recited the first verse to him and informed him that he was chosen to be prophet. After that, verses of Holy Koran were dictated to him by direct revelations from God.

Islamic scholars while they attempt to explain Islamic doctrines, quite often they quote from the verses of Holy Koran combined with Hadith (Sayings of Prophet Mohammad). To them these two very different sources have the same level of credibility. Also, structurally these two very different collections, amazingly have similar level of sophistications! To me this indicates that maybe both collections were authored by Prophet Mohammad and there were no recitation from God or Angel Gabriel. Actually in the following Hadith (Saying of Prophet Mohammad) regarding the nature of his revelation, Prophet Mohammad indicates the same notion; that is, he grasps the messages and then he uses his own words to recite the verses of Holy Koran to the people.

Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Apostle "O Allah's Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Apostle replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says."

In his Hadith, Prophet Mohammad should have said that he memorizes the revelation rather than he grasps them. And this point makes the verses of Holy Koran as words of Prophet Mohammad. And this is a clear contradiction from the claim that verses of Holy Koran are words of God!

Of course, there might be other Hadiths which might contradict this Hadith! And the same goes for the verses of Holy Koran! So, how can anybody, in his right mind, accept that these confused messages be the ultimate instructions from God!?

In the following I examine the verses of Holy Koran looking for their author.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *​

[55:1] The Most Gracious.
[55:2] Teacher of the Quran.
[55:3] Creator of the human beings.

[10:37] This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than GOD. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe.

[53:1] As the stars fell away.
[53:2] Your friend (Muhammad) was not astray, nor was he deceived.
[53:3] Nor was he speaking out of a personal desire.
[53:4] It was divine inspiration.
[53:5] Dictated by the Most Powerful.
[53:6] Possessor of all authority. From His highest height.
[53:7] At the highest horizon.
[53:8] He drew nearer by moving down.
[53:9] Until He became as close as possible.
[53:10] He then revealed to His servant what was to be revealed.
[53:11] The mind never made up what it saw.
[53:12] Are you doubting what he saw?
[53:13] He saw him in another descent.
[53:14] At the ultimate point.
[53:15] Where the eternal Paradise is located.
[53:16] The whole place was overwhelmed.
[53:17] The eyes did not waver, nor go blind.
[53:18] He saw great signs of his Lord.

Verse [53:5] is telling us God is the author!
But, from grammar point of view, who is telling these verses!?
Here both God and Prophet Mohammed are the third parties to the story teller!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *​

Now let us examine some of the verses more closely.

[41:12] Thus, He completed the seven universes in two days, and set up the laws for every universe. And we adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and placed guards around it. Such is the design of the Almighty, the Omniscient.

In this verse the pronoun for the author changes from He to we!
How could the author point to himself as “He”!? The author should always be either “I” or “we”. “He” is a third party!
If God is the author of this verse, he is a very poor writer!


[7:143] When Moses came at our appointed time, and his Lord spoke with him, he said, "My Lord, let me look and see You." He said, "You cannot see Me. Look at that mountain; if it stays in its place, then you can see Me." Then, his Lord manifested Himself to the mountain, and this caused it to crumble. Moses fell unconscious. When he came to, he said, "Be You glorified. I repent to You, and I am the most convinced believer."
Again this is a mish mash verse; first statement God is the author “Our appointment”, and in the second statement God is referred to himself as the third party “his Lord”! This has to be words of Prophet Mohammad who is envisioning Moses conversation with God. For sure the writer of this verse lacks proper writing skill. Prophet Mohammad’s lack of his writing skill reveals itself very clearly; when a passage is just more than few sentences he messes up the grammar!

[5:115] GOD said, "I am sending it down. Anyone among you who disbelieves after this, I will punish him as I never punished anyone else."

This sounds that this is Prophet Mohammad who is bringing God’s message to the people. So “GOD said” should not be part of the verse! Because “GOD said” are not words from God!

[31:10] He created the heavens without pillars that you can see. He established on earth stabilizers (mountains) lest it tumbles with you, and He spread on it all kinds of creatures. We send down from the sky water to grow all kinds of beautiful plants.

In first three sentences God is the third party, and the fourth sentence God is the author! Again, a confused collection of pronouns!

(Because of the 10000 characters limitation I have cut more than half of this post. But you got the essence of my argument just with these few examples.)

May God Bless Us ALL
Unes

 

[Unes]

Other Flaws in Holy Koran

[4:82] Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *​

[21:111] "For all that I know, this world is a test for you, and a temporary enjoyment."

PICKTHAL translation [21:111]: And I know not but that this may be a trial for you, and enjoyment for a while.
YUSUFALI translation [21:111]: "I know not but that it may be a trial for you, and a grant of (worldly) livelihood (to you) for a time."
SHAKIR translation [21:111]: And I do not know if this may be a trial for you and a provision till a time.

Without any doubt God knows the purpose of our lives. So, definitely this is not word of God.
Here it is crystal clear that this is Prophet Mohammad who is interjecting his own opinion in this matter.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *​

[55:33] O you jinns and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the earth, go ahead and penetrate. You cannot penetrate without authorization.

PICKTHAL Translation of[55:33] O company of jinn and men, if ye have power to penetrate (all) regions of the heavens and the earth, then penetrate (them)! Ye will never penetrate them save with (Our) sanction.

I think with the space explorations we already have passed the limits of the earth. So Holy Koran is proved to be wrong that it says we can not do that!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *​

[33:72] We have offered the responsibility (freedom of choice) to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were afraid of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.

PICKTHAL Translation of[33:72]: Lo! We offered the trust unto the heavens and the earth and the hills, but they shrank from bearing it and were afraid of it. And man assumed it. Lo! he hath proved a tyrant and a fool.

Well, this is a new idea, similar to the Christians’ “Original Sin”.
So, if man is a tyrant and a fool, then by contrast the hills must have more wisdom! But I do not think that hills have any cognition! I wonder how mountains could have Free Choice!?
This is so absurd that I can not find proper words to express my annoyance or my indignation. I think there should be a limit for claiming any nonsense.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *​

[6:136] They even set aside a share of GOD's provisions of crops and livestock, saying, "This share belongs to GOD," according to their claims, "and this share belongs to our idols." However, what was set aside for their idols never reached GOD, while the share they set aside for GOD invariably went to their idols. Miserable indeed is their judgment.

Poor Mighty God, he was cheated by the Idols for his portion of the provisions of crops and livestock!
I guess Prophet Mohammad was hallucinating when he revealed this beauty!
The same goes for the following verse:

[6:108] Do not curse the idols they set up beside GOD, lest they blaspheme and curse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done.

This is so weird; Mighty God is concerned that the Idols worshippers might curse him!?
What a tragedy!? This sounds that Mighty God lacks any self confidence!

Here is another profound verse:

[22 : 47] They challenge you to bring retribution, and GOD never fails to fulfill His prophecy. A day of your Lord is like a thousand of your years.

PICKTHAL translation [22:47]: And they will bid thee hasten on the Doom, and Allah faileth not His promise, but lo! a Day with Allah is as a thousand years of what ye reckon.

This is so absurd; because, Time should not apply to God! Otherwise like us God will age too! And maybe someday he will die too!

In this verse Prophet Mohammad really blew it! Prophet Mohammad had thought whatever applies to us, it also applies to God, but in much grander scale! So, if we live 70 years, then God lives 70,000,000 years!

Besides, if the indication is that our day in heaven in the presence of God is like a thousand years. That is as meaningless point too! Because why should scale of time be a factor when we supposed to be in the heaven forever!?

If in heaven the days are this lengthy, then the nights will be this lengthy too! Then, what would happen if we get a sleepless night!? And what is the advantage of the long days!?

The verses of Holy Koran are supposed to give us the guidance to benefit us in this life on this earth, what is the point of discussing of some fuzzy issues which have no plausible meaning as far as we are concerned!? We need to resolve the issues of our lives here, on this earth, before we can discuss the nature of our being after our death.

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[10:38] If they say, "He fabricated it," say, "Then produce one sura like these, and invite whomever you wish, other than GOD, if you are truthful."
Sura means chapter. Koran has 114 chapters.

[11:13] If they say, "He fabricated (the Quran)," tell them, "Then produce ten suras like these, fabricated, and invite whomever you can, other than GOD, if you are truthful."

Here it sounds that God changed his mind, first he asks to produce one chapter, and then he asks to produce 10 chapters! In any case these two verses are contradicting each other!

(Because of the 10000 characters limitation I have cut more than half of this post. You can view the rest of the article on my site.)

May God Bless Us ALL
Unes

 

[dvice19]

unes you're missing the whole point of the quran.

you think you have all the answers.

you babel on forever.

where do you stand?

what do you believe in?

 

[dvice19]

your arguments are uneducated. if you want to learn the faults of your evaluation read the WHOLE quran translated by rashad khalifa, the exact translation that you are using to present your argument.

you are simply taking a few verses out of context and making ridiculous claims. you seem to be speaking out of anger and arrogance.

you're being totally sarcastic. no intelligent person turns to sarcasm in an argument. that's what children do.

if you really knew the quran, you'd know that your statements and questions are illogical.

sorry sir, but anyone with half of a brain will see this analysis doesn't prove anything...

 

[England my lionheart]

your arguments are uneducated. if you want to learn the faults of your evaluation read the WHOLE quran translated by rashad khalifa, the exact translation that you are using to present your argument.

you are simply taking a few verses out of context and making ridiculous claims. you seem to be speaking out of anger and arrogance.

you're being totally sarcastic. no intelligent person turns to sarcasm in an argument. that's what children do.

if you really knew the quran, you'd know that your statements and questions are illogical.

sorry sir, but anyone with half of a brain will see this analysis doesn't prove anything...

Whats wrong with a little healthy criticism

 

[Unes]

your arguments are uneducated. if you want to learn the faults of your evaluation read the WHOLE quran translated by rashad khalifa, the exact translation that you are using to present your argument.

Hello dvice19,
I see that your religion is Submission. I am quoting verses of Holy Koran from Submission.com translation! That should have been agreeable to you. And for verification sometimes I added translation from Pickthal Translation. I believe these are very credible translation. I was not interested to critique any verse by taking advantage of any faulty translation. I have tried to present the verses very factually. If some verses of Holy Koran convey very wrong message, then nobody should hide behind the idea that the translations must be faulty!

you are simply taking a few verses out of context and making ridiculous claims. you seem to be speaking out of anger and arrogance.

you're being totally sarcastic. no intelligent person turns to sarcasm in an argument. that's what children do.

Dear dvice19, if you think that in anyway I misrepresented or twisted any item I wish that you could point out that item and prove to me that I had mistaken. I welcome your criticism if you only could be specific. Just remember that I am interested only on facts and not on any illusions. Summarily dismissing an argument without pointing to any specifics is not the behavior of a credible critic. You need to come clean, for example please tell me according to Holy Koran "Is Holy Bible the word of God?" and "Is Trinity a blasphemy?" If the answers are yes, then Holy Koran has impeached itself. Anybody would understand this conclusion! What is your reasoning disputing this conclusion?

In each argument I have pointed to some specific verse or verses and I have drawn my conclusions. I wonder how else anybody can make any argument!? Maybe your anger barred you to appreciate the merits of these sound conclusions.

May God Bless Us ALL
Unes

 

[YmirGF]

Dear dvice19, if you think that in anyway I misrepresented or twisted any item I wish that you could point out that item and prove to me that I had mistaken. I welcome your criticism if you only could be specific. Just remember that I am interested only on facts and not on any illusions. Summarily dismissing an argument without pointing to any specifics is not the behavior of a credible critic.

You understand well that none will actually respond to your arguments because they cannot and this is the reason for attacking the credibility of your argument. It is a bit disingenuous, to say the least. For example, Robert Spencer and Bat Yor are continually assaulted for not being scholars and yet no one ever responds to the actual points they raise. Why is that, do you think?

 

[ProudMuslim]

My understanding is that Muslims accept the theoretically unaltered scriptures prior to -- so the theory goes -- when they became "corrupted". For example, where Christian and Jewish texts differ from the Qur'an that is an obvious sign that the former has been corrupted by wicked men of ill repute. The parts that agree with the Qur'an are considered to be genuine.

Your understanding is wrong my friend

We believe in the divinity of the Torah and the Gospels. But we also believe some of their content have been altered. It has nothing to do with parts that agree with Qur'an or those that are different. It is something to do with blatant disrespect to God or His apostles. I will give some examples, there are stories in the Bible where it mentioned:

• That we were created in the image of God.
• How God "rested" after 6 days of hard work
• That death is a punishment from God because of Adam and Eve sin
• That God didn't want Adam to eat from the "Knowledge Tree",
• That Jacob "wrestled" with God
• That Solomon worshipped different "Gods"
• That 'Lot' fathered his daughters' children
• That Jesus was God/son of God yet was killed

and more of that nature. We simply find such statements very offensive to God and His apostles. So does God look like a man or a woman? black or white? what exactly "His image" mean? Such statements are considered fabricated. God cannot be wrestled against or killed, that Apostles who have been chosen by God will not commit atrocities/sins such as the mentioned. Yes they were human, but they were chosen human.

Qur'an confirm the holiness/observance of Sabbath applied on the Israelities and their kosher. Just because they are different from Islamic Sharia doesn't mean they were not imposed by God and we dont consider those laws corrupted.

Do you see the difference now?

This is also why there is so much talk about how the Qur'an is protected from change or and cannot be corrupted. It's a bit of a childish argument, but it is all they have, so one has to be somewhat understanding on the matter.

What is childish? it is a fact that there is only one version of Qur'an and that is has been preserved for over 1400 years. I will understand if you want to consider this fact of no importance but to argue about it, that is childish!

What I am unable to fathom is how Muslims can believe in the Virgin birth and yet the product of that birth is not the "son" of the "father".

You lost there. I cant comprehend how you link the two? We believe in miracles and Jesus (PBUH) conception and birth was a miracle. Does that make him the son of God? Of course not. God also created Adam from nothing and blew His soul into him, does that make Adam His son? Of course not.

We just don't believe God can have sons, daughters, mothers, sisters, family, etc. That God does not beget nor is He begotten. That is not hard to fathom at all, what is hard to fathom is was Jesus the son of God or was he the God himself in a human form? And in either case why did He chose to beget or descend to earth after sending apotles for thousands of years? Why did He sacrificed his son? Isn't human sacrificing a forbidden law according to God in the Torah? And isn't one sin is not erased through another person, like when Moses (PBUH) asked God to kill him (or punish him) for what the Israelities did (worshipping the golden lamb) and then God told him he cannot. Or worse yet how can God be killed by His own creatures?

Like i have said earlier, Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) and Holy Qur'an are successor of Torah and Gospels. We believe that all apostles were chosen by God and all of them had the same decree and message. The Qur'an show us where the previous holy books deviated but didn't by any mean said Torah and Gospels are cancelled or to be totally dismissed. So if there is any story in the Torah or Gospel that don't violate or undermine God and the Apostles but is also not mentioned in the Qur'an, we can believe it as a fact.

My sincere apology for anyone who is offended by my post. My intention is to discuss the views posted here and not to disrespect anyone's belief.

Salaam.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Hi Unes, i have tried to reply to some of your comments. Very time consuming so i will come back to the remaining some other time insha'Allah

the Holy Koran accepts the Christianity but it totally rejects the Trinity. How can that be!?

Please tell me you are not serious? Is the next question going to be how does Islam accept Judaism and not believe in modern day Zionism?

This is a false statement, because Jesus did not bring any NEW scripture or any Gospel. Jesus was a Jew and he preached as a Jew and he died as a Jew.

Ok let me examine your statement right there. So you are saying Jesus (PBUH) was a Jew and preached as a Jew, please answer the following:
· Why is Sabbath is not observed by Christians? Why is it Sunday the ‘holy day’ of Christians?
· Why is eating pork allowed in Christianity?
· Why stoning an adulterer is forbidden in Christianity while permitted in Judaism?
· What about all the commands enforced on Jewish people by God, why Christians don’t abide by them?
· Why Yom Kippur, Hanukah and many other Jewish feasts are not observed by Christians?
· Most importantly, what message was Jesus delivering if he didn’t add/change/remove anything from the previous Law? Why was there a need for Jesus at that time if he was not supposed to bring anything new?
Let’s continue…

But, the problem is the verses of Holy Koran vehemently rejects the core principal of the Holy Bible!

Holy Bible? What exactly is the Bible here? If I am not mistaken the Jews call their Holy Book the Torah, not the Bible, which composes of Old Testament and New Testament.
The core principal of the Torah is that God is one and that He doesn’t beget nor is He begotten. The Messiah according to the Jewish prophecy will not be “half” God, he will be fully human. So it was not Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) who rejected the core principals of the Holy Torah.

Prophet Mohammad was brilliant to describe God beyond our imagination. But how could he have made such an obvious blunder about the Christianity!?

I have explained in an earlier post the view of Islam on the authenticity of Torah and Gospels. Please refer to it for this part.

Well, Mary has to be ashamed of herself to seek refuge to a stranger man, and getting pregnant outside of a wedlock!Is this a good example for young girls!? They might get tempted to have sexual activities for the hope of conceiving from the spirit! After all, when we are in the mood, our sexual activities are heavenly! Especially when we have a cooperating partner!

Huh?

In this story God said that he sent his spirit to Mary. This means that God’s spirit is a separate entity from God. So the spirit is not God. And the spirit said to Mary: "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you a pure son." So, this is the spirit (a messenger from God) who granted Mary a pure son.

The spirit mentioned here is referred to Gabriel, who is always referred as a spirit in the Holy Qur’an. So yes, Gabriel is different than God.

In this verse this is God himself who blows from his spirit into Mary, to pregnant her

No no, not in this verse in both verses God blew from His spirit (soul). One verse explains how and the other did not. So the story according to Qur’an God blew His spirit/soul into Marry through Gabriel.

God’s messenger is the one who made Mary pregnant.

How did you get this information? In verses (19:19) Gabriel informed Mary about God’s intention and plans. Just like God’s revelation to Muhammed occurred through Gabriel. It doesn’t mean it was Gabriel’s words, it means he was messenger who deliver God’s words.

There is another fundamental problem in this passage. Holy Koran repeatedly emphasizes that the image of God is beyond our comprehension. Now in this passage it tells us that God sent his spirit to Mary, and that spirit took a human form. Then we can interject, at that interval when God’s spirit was performing his miracle on Mary, he was acting on his own devises, and also in that period God was functioning independent of his spirit! All these interjections shade a new light on that un-knowable image of God! This image of God has some similarity to the Trinity image of God in Christianity! Then why Holy Koran so bluntly rejects the image of God in Trinity theology!? Isn’t this a contradiction, of the serious kind!? Also, we read that God created Adam with his own hands. Don’t these assertions give us some clues about the image of God? In this image God looks like a human being!? So, God’s image is not that un-knowable!

I just explained above who was the spirit, it was not God, it was Gabriel. In Islam we make no mistake that God didn’t appear to any human, no one saw Him.

The Holy Bible which was canonized on 321 AD has not changed.

So? We don’t believe the Gospels that were written/canonized centuries after the death of Jesus (PBUH) were the original message to begin with? The Quran is saying confusion and fabrication started the minute Jesus left this world. So in other words, we question some of the content authenticity of the original canonized Gospels. This has nothing to do with 321 AD onwards, although no one can deny there are many versions of the Gospels followed by different sects.

In fact this is the same Holy Bible which Prophet Mohammad was accepting it as word of God, without reading its content! If Prophet Mohammad had read the Holy Bible, then, for sure he would have avoided this subject altogether, and he would have not exposed his ignorance.

Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) accepted the divinity and holiness of the Torah and Gospels, that both were inspired by God. But also both had some of their contents altered. In other words, he was saying that Torah and Gospels are not man-made books, they contain divined message and revelation but some of their contents were fabricated. So the Gospels that were canonized were already altered and that what Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) was saying, and examples of alteration were manifested in the Qur’an. Again this subject is covered in my earlier post.
Man I am not a scholar but it was easy to answer your questions

 

[Unes]

Ok let me examine your statement right there. So you are saying Jesus (PBUH) was a Jew and preached as a Jew, please answer the following:
·Why is Sabbath is not observed by Christians? Why is it Sunday the ‘holy day’ of Christians?
·Why is eating pork allowed in Christianity?
·Why stoning an adulterer is forbidden in Christianity while permitted in Judaism?
·What about all the commands enforced on Jewish people by God, why Christians don’t abide by them?
·Why Yom Kippur, Hanukah and many other Jewish feasts are not observed by Christians?
·Most importantly, what message was Jesus delivering if he didn’t add/change/remove anything from the previous Law? Why was there a need for Jesus at that time if he was not supposed to bring anything new?
Let’s continue…

Hello ProudMuslim,
My friend I am not condoning Christianity! If you read the following thread you will find out how I proved the falsehood of Christianity!
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/abrahamic-religions/39265-christianity-crisis.html

However, Christianity believes in Holy Bible. This Holy Bible was canonized on 321 AD. This canonized Holy Bible has not changed since then. So, when Prophet Mohammad on 610 - 633 AD claimed Holy Bible as word of God, this is the exact Holy Bible which Prophet Mohammad condoned, without knowing its contents! And this is the inherent fault which I am exposing. It is absurd to claim that Holy Bible is word of God and at the same time to reject its contents!

If Holy Koran was objecting to the contents of the Holy Bible it should have not approved it as word of God. I should add that Jesus did not bring any Gospels as Holy Koran by mistakes alleges. So, claiming that Jesus brought the Gospels is another mistake of Holy Koran. So, frankly, Holy Koran did not know anything about Christianity!

The spirit mentioned here is referred to Gabriel, who is always referred as a spirit in the Holy Qur’an. So yes, Gabriel is different than God.

My friend ProudMuslim, I do not recall seeing this claim in any verse. Could you please point to the verse which makes this assertion?

Besides, Gabriel is an angel and he is not the spirit of God.

However, if you claim Gabriel as spirit of God which is separate from God, now we are dissecting the structure of God, which we repeatedly had claimed that God is beyond our imagination. Condoning the spirit of God as a separate and distinct entity from God, that creates a dual deity which Islam vehemently condemns. Then why condemn Christianity for worshiping the Holy Ghosts!?

No no, not in this verse in both verses God blew from His spirit (soul). One verse explains how and the other did not. So the story according to Qur’an God blew His spirit/soul into Marry through Gabriel.

My friend ProudMuslim, Please read these two verses very carefully:
[19:19] He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you a pure son."

[21:91] As for the one who maintained her virginity, we blew into her from our spirit, and thus, we made her and her son a portent for the whole world.
As you see the messenger is not informing Mother Mary, he is granting her a pure son. In order your claim to be correct, then we have to assume that God and his spirit is the same entity and they are indistinguishable. But we already have concluded that God and his spirit were two separate entities! So, no matter how you interpret this it will not jive.

God’s messenger is the one who made Mary pregnant.

How did you get this information? In verses (19:19) Gabriel informed Mary about God’s intention and plans. Just like God’s revelation to Muhammed occurred through Gabriel. It doesn’t mean it was Gabriel’s words, it means he was messenger who deliver God’s words.

Please read verses [19:19] very carefully:
[19:19] He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you a pure son."
PICKTHAL Translation[19:19]:He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

This is very clear who was responsible for Mary's Pregnancy “I may bestow on thee a faultless son.”
My friend ProudMuslim, you better read the verse very carefully before making any claims!

When Gabriel acts as a messenger then he delivers the word of God. However in the case of Mary’s pregnancy if Gabriel blew in Mary’s mouth, then that is Gabriel who caused the pregnancy. When a man send his message to his wife, that is his message that his wife receives, but if he ask his messenger to pregnant his wife, then he can not claim that is his seed. Unless in this case we claim that Gabriel and God are the same entity, which in this case it contradicts the distinct assumption!

My friend ProudMuslim, don’t you think these are all faulty myths, which you are trying so helplessly to make them plausible!? Isn’t it about time that we face the Truth? Through our intelligence the Truth is guiding us to realty if we ponder and listen. I am afraid that our habits, our customs, and our traditions are the major obstacles for our enlightenment.

May God Bless Us ALL
Unes

 

[dvice19]

ok unes, soon as i have some time to go write it all out, God willing, i will point to the places where you are mistaken in your analysis.

i do admit that it is good to see that you regard the rashad khalifa translation...

 

[dvice19]

Other Flaws in Holy Koran

[4:82] Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *​

1) [21:111] "For all that I know, this world is a test for you, and a temporary enjoyment."

PICKTHAL translation [21:111]: And I know not but that this may be a trial for you, and enjoyment for a while.
YUSUFALI translation [21:111]: "I know not but that it may be a trial for you, and a grant of (worldly) livelihood (to you) for a time."
SHAKIR translation [21:111]: And I do not know if this may be a trial for you and a provision till a time.

Without any doubt God knows the purpose of our lives. So, definitely this is not word of God.
Here it is crystal clear that this is Prophet Mohammad who is interjecting his own opinion in this matter.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *​

2) [55:33] O you jinns and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the earth, go ahead and penetrate. You cannot penetrate without authorization.

PICKTHAL Translation of[55:33] O company of jinn and men, if ye have power to penetrate (all) regions of the heavens and the earth, then penetrate (them)! Ye will never penetrate them save with (Our) sanction.

I think with the space explorations we already have passed the limits of the earth. So Holy Koran is proved to be wrong that it says we can not do that!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *​

3) [33:72] We have offered the responsibility (freedom of choice) to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were afraid of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.

PICKTHAL Translation of[33:72]: Lo! We offered the trust unto the heavens and the earth and the hills, but they shrank from bearing it and were afraid of it. And man assumed it. Lo! he hath proved a tyrant and a fool.

Well, this is a new idea, similar to the Christians’ “Original Sin”.
So, if man is a tyrant and a fool, then by contrast the hills must have more wisdom! But I do not think that hills have any cognition! I wonder how mountains could have Free Choice!?
This is so absurd that I can not find proper words to express my annoyance or my indignation. I think there should be a limit for claiming any nonsense.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *​

4) [6:136] They even set aside a share of GOD's provisions of crops and livestock, saying, "This share belongs to GOD," according to their claims, "and this share belongs to our idols." However, what was set aside for their idols never reached GOD, while the share they set aside for GOD invariably went to their idols. Miserable indeed is their judgment.

Poor Mighty God, he was cheated by the Idols for his portion of the provisions of crops and livestock!
I guess Prophet Mohammad was hallucinating when he revealed this beauty!
The same goes for the following verse:

[6:108] Do not curse the idols they set up beside GOD, lest they blaspheme and curse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done.

This is so weird; Mighty God is concerned that the Idols worshippers might curse him!?
What a tragedy!? This sounds that Mighty God lacks any self confidence!

Here is another profound verse:

[22 : 47] They challenge you to bring retribution, and GOD never fails to fulfill His prophecy. A day of your Lord is like a thousand of your years.

PICKTHAL translation [22:47]: And they will bid thee hasten on the Doom, and Allah faileth not His promise, but lo! a Day with Allah is as a thousand years of what ye reckon.

This is so absurd; because, Time should not apply to God! Otherwise like us God will age too! And maybe someday he will die too!

In this verse Prophet Mohammad really blew it! Prophet Mohammad had thought whatever applies to us, it also applies to God, but in much grander scale! So, if we live 70 years, then God lives 70,000,000 years!

Besides, if the indication is that our day in heaven in the presence of God is like a thousand years. That is as meaningless point too! Because why should scale of time be a factor when we supposed to be in the heaven forever!?

If in heaven the days are this lengthy, then the nights will be this lengthy too! Then, what would happen if we get a sleepless night!? And what is the advantage of the long days!?

The verses of Holy Koran are supposed to give us the guidance to benefit us in this life on this earth, what is the point of discussing of some fuzzy issues which have no plausible meaning as far as we are concerned!? We need to resolve the issues of our lives here, on this earth, before we can discuss the nature of our being after our death.

ok let's do this then:

1) Mohammed is not injecting his opinion here. He is just simply saying that is all he knows about life. This is what God has taught him, therefore there is no opinion here.

2) God is saying here that if we can penetrate, then we can go ahead and do so. So as you noted, we have penetrated the outer limits of the earth. So fine, God said if we can, we are welcome to. He didn't say we CANNOT. But we never could have unless God allowed us to.

3) Ok, here if you read Dr. Khalifa's translation in full detail, you will find that he tells us that the earth is a creature. In the Khalifa translation, Rashad points out that before we were born into this earth we were all standing before God and we had to make a decision. This is all in the introduction, you have to read it to understand it. You can believe this or not, it doesn't matter. Once you realize that we believe the earth is a creature that has made a better choice than the human being then this verse makes sense.

4) All that this verse is saying is that the idol worshippers chose their idols instead of God. It doesn't hurt God is the least, it means the idol worshippers go to hell. So they have made a miserable choice.

If we curse the idols they set up and they curse God to retaliate, then we have caused them to do it. When they curse God, they are harming themselves, not God.

Anyway I could go on and on, but I could use some sleep. The point is that you haven't really read/understood Dr. Khalifa's translation and your arguments illustrate this. Please read it and understand it before you point out it's "flaws."

Understand also that the quran has no flaws and mocking it results in suffering. I kid you not. Peace...

 

[Unes]

[21:111] "For all that I know, this world is a test for you, and a temporary enjoyment."

PICKTHAL translation [21:111]: And I know not but that this may be a trial for you, and enjoyment for a while.
YUSUFALI translation [21:111]: "I know not but that it may be a trial for you, and a grant of (worldly) livelihood (to you) for a time."
SHAKIR translation [21:111]: And I do not know if this may be a trial for you and a provision till a time.

Without any doubt God knows the purpose of our lives. So, definitely this is not word of God.
Here it is crystal clear that this is Prophet Mohammad who is interjecting his own opinion in this matter.

1) Mohammed is not injecting his opinion here. He is just simply saying that is all he knows about life. This is what God has taught him, therefore there is no opinion here.

Dear dvice19,
Your first sentence contradicts your second sentence! In second sentence you are admitting that this is what Prophet Mohammad knows, and I do agree with that. So, in this verse Prophet Mohammad reflects his knowledge about the purpose of life. By this admission we are saying the verses of Holy Koran are words of Prophet Mohammad. So, Prophet Mohammad is lying when he repeatedly claims the verses of Holy Koran are words of God and he is simply a messenger of God. Otherwise, how can God say such a thing: "For all that I know"?

I think just this point is enough to prove the falsehood of Holy Koran, and no need to discuss the other short blunders.

May God Bless Us ALL
Unes

 

[dvice19]

no sir, before mohammed says this, in the quran God instructs him to say this. your taking it out of context again. the whole thing starts with 21:109:

109. If they turn away, then say,
"I have warned you sufficiently,
and I have no idea how soon
or late (the retribution) will
come to you.
110. "He is fully aware of your
public utterances, and He is
fully aware of everything you conceal.
111. "For all that I know, this world is a test for you,
and a temporary enjoyment."

so you see you are wrong again. you should study this book more carefully. you don't seem to understand what is going on here. God commanded mohammed to say this. mohammed never gave any religious instructions unless they were from God.

 

[YmirGF]

Your understanding is wrong my friend

Given your explanation below I am a bit puzzled why you would say that my understanding is incorrect. If anything you have simply underscored that my thinking is accurate.

We believe in the divinity of the Torah and the Gospels. But we also believe some of their content have been altered. It has nothing to do with parts that agree with Qur'an or those that are different. It is something to do with blatant disrespect to God or His apostles.

• That we were created in the image of God.
• How God "rested" after 6 days of hard work

But why is it of any consequence what Muslims believe in regards to the Scriptures of other religions? In the two points above both are likely metaphorical. True, you will find some Christians who believe in the literal six days, but most do not.
Re: being created in the image of god, personally I find the allusion to be vastly superior to that of the descriptions in the Qur’an. I don’t see it as a reference to physicality, but rather, as a reference to the fact that “we” are also formless and mistaken our body’s for our true self.

• That death is a punishment from God because of Adam and Eve sin
• That God didn't want Adam to eat from the "Knowledge Tree"

I'm confused why the words of Muhammad are of importance here, as it's a parable and not likely a literal event. Muhammad simply chose to clarify a message that was delivered centuries before to a people who had different views of reality. Muhammad chose to believe that it was a literal event and designated Adam as a prophet of god, similar to himself. Talk about grandfathering a claim.

• That Jacob "wrestled" with God
• That Solomon worshipped different "Gods"
• That 'Lot' fathered his daughters' children

The point is, why should we believe Muhammad’s rendition of events over that of tales that were already centuries old when he drew his first breath? The main difficulty with refuting Muhammad’s version of events is that the facts, if there were any, are impossible to discern. In my view, Muhammad lent new meaning to revisionist thinking by claiming the writings of others were false on his say so alone.

• That Jesus was God/son of God yet was killed

I am often fascinated at the fixation Muslims have on the physicality of Jesus. This is a similar distortion to not appreciating what is meant by being made in the “image” of god. Christian dogma is touching on the non-physical aspects of being whereas Muhammad never seemed to understand this. He assumed that it was all meant in gross physical terms. No wonder much of what was told to him did not make sense.

and more of that nature. We simply find such statements very offensive to God and His apostles. So does God look like a man or a woman? black or white? what exactly "His image" mean? Such statements are considered fabricated. God cannot be wrestled against or killed, that Apostles who have been chosen by God will not commit atrocities/sins such as the mentioned. Yes they were human, but they were chosen human.

All this simply underscores the limited understanding of Muhammad in regards to the non-physical nature of the topics he was being told about. What confounds Islamic theology is that the “image” of god is formless. When you view all of these things in that context, they make sense. In the case of Christ, for example, it is not the body that is “god”, but rather the being within the body that is god. It’s a reasonable mistake to make though especially by physically focused human animals such as Muhammad and billions of others.

Qur'an confirm the holiness/observance of Sabbath applied on the Israelities and their kosher. Just because they are different from Islamic Sharia doesn't mean they were not imposed by God and we dont consider those laws corrupted.

Why on Earth would Christians and Jews need to have their beliefs confirmed by some unsought outside agency? It’s almost the definition of arrogance, to be honest.

Do you see the difference now?

You have not explained anything I did not already know, but thanks for the valiant effort. I still find Islamic thought to be especially wanting and devoid of any great understanding.

What is childish? it is a fact that there is only one version of Qur'an and that is has been preserved for over 1400 years. I will understand if you want to consider this fact of no importance but to argue about it, that is childish!

What you are forgetting to mention is that all other versions of the Qur’an were outlawed and destroyed.

First, Sayyidna Uthman, Radi-Allahu anhu, borrowed the first copy of the Holy Qur'an from Hafsah, Radi-Allahu anha. He then formed a group of four companions, Sayyidna Zayd bin Thabit, Abdullah bin Zubayr, Saeed ibn al Aas, and Abdur Rahman bin Harith Radi-Allahu anhuma. The group had the task of making transcripts of the original copy and also to put the Surahs in sequence. Other companions were also called upon to help them.

After having these standard transcripts prepared, all other transcripts were burnt, so that all copies of the Qur'an become uniform in script and the sequence of Surahs, leaving no room for differences. The copy produced by Sayyidna Uthman, Radi-Allahu anhu, is still extant. All copies of the Qur'an available today in the world are exactly identical to the Uthmani Version, which was completed less than twenty years after the death of Prophet Muhammad, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam.
Later some improvements were made in the Arabic script, like the adding of dots and diacritical marks, to make it easier for non-Arabs to read, but of course, the text of the Qur'an has remained, and will remain the same forever.

So what you really mean is the standardized version has remain relatively unchanged since Uthman.

What I am unable to fathom is how Muslims can believe in the Virgin birth and yet the product of that birth is not the "son" of the "father".

You lost there. I cant comprehend how you link the two? We believe in miracles and Jesus (PBUH) conception and birth was a miracle. Does that make him the son of God?

Ignoring the miraculous nature of his conception removes god from the equation. You simply cannot have it both ways as that is illogical. I really don’t think that Muslim’s have thought this out very well.

Of course not. God also created Adam from nothing and blew His soul into him, does that make Adam His son? Of course not.

And god “blowing His soul into Adam” is supposed to sound reasonable? Muslims (and others) seem to be totally hung up on the physical aspects here. If god made Mary pregnant by a miracle, then logically, it follows that since god “did it” he is “the father”, perhaps not in the conventional sense, but nonetheless.

We just don't believe God can have sons, daughters, mothers, sisters, family, etc. That God does not beget nor is He begotten. That is not hard to fathom at all, what is hard to fathom is was Jesus the son of God or was he the God himself in a human form? - (snip)- Or worse yet how can God be killed by His own creatures?

Again, you are missing the point. The point is that the essence of the man is NOT his body. Muslim fixation on the body, as self, is most of the problem here.

Like i have said earlier, Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) and Holy Qur'an are successor of Torah and Gospels.

The important point is that is so ONLY in Muslim circles. Jews and Christians simply do not recognize your authority to judge them. That makes Islam more than a bit arrogant.

We believe that all apostles were chosen by God and all of them had the same decree and message. The Qur'an show us where the previous holy books deviated but didn't by any mean said Torah and Gospels are cancelled or to be totally dismissed. So if there is any story in the Torah or Gospel that don't violate or undermine God and the Apostles but is also not mentioned in the Qur'an, we can believe it as a fact.

Again, this has meaning ONLY in Muslim circles. Muslim interpretation means jack squat to Christians and Jews. You do understand that, correct?

My sincere apology for anyone who is offended by my post. My intention is to discuss the views posted here and not to disrespect anyone's belief.

I am very difficult to offend, ProudMuslim. Perhaps we can both learn something of value from the other.

 

[Unes]

no sir, before mohammed says this, in the quran God instructs him to say this. your taking it out of context again. the whole thing starts with 21:109:

109. If they turn away, then say,
"I have warned you sufficiently,
and I have no idea how soon
or late (the retribution) will
come to you.
110. "He is fully aware of your
public utterances, and He is
fully aware of everything you conceal.
111. "For all that I know, this world is a test for you,
and a temporary enjoyment."

so you see you are wrong again. you should study this book more carefully. you don't seem to understand what is going on here. God commanded mohammed to say this. mohammed never gave any religious instructions unless they were from God.

[21:108] Proclaim, "I have been given divine inspiration that your god is one god. Will you then submit?"
Dear dvice19,
I accept your explanation. And I admit my mistake on this point. I am open to the truth without any prejudice. Now let me examine your other points.

2) [55:33] O you jinns and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the earth, go ahead and penetrate. You cannot penetrate without authorization.

PICKTHAL Translation of[55:33] O company of jinn and men, if ye have power to penetrate (all) regions of the heavens and the earth, then penetrate (them)! Ye will never penetrate them save with (Our) sanction.

I think with the space explorations we already have passed the limits of the earth. So Holy Koran is proved to be wrong that it says we can not do that!

2) God is saying here that if we can penetrate, then we can go ahead and do so. So as you noted, we have penetrated the outer limits of the earth. So fine, God said if we can, we are welcome to. He didn't say we CANNOT. But we never could have unless God allowed us to.

Dear dvice19,
“You cannot penetrate without authorization.” Or “Ye will never penetrate them save with (Our) sanction.”
Am I reading this wrong way; this clearly says you cannot?
If you claim that authorization was given, then I would ask you: how did godless USSR society get its authorization from God!?

[33:72] We have offered the responsibility (freedom of choice) to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were afraid of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.

PICKTHAL Translation of[33:72]: Lo! We offered the trust unto the heavens and the earth and the hills, but they shrank from bearing it and were afraid of it. And man assumed it. Lo! he hath proved a tyrant and a fool.

Well, this is a new idea, similar to the Christians’ “Original Sin”.
So, if man is a tyrant and a fool, then by contrast the hills must have more wisdom! But I do not think that hills have any cognition! I wonder how mountains could have Free Choice!?
This is so absurd that I can not find proper words to express my annoyance or my indignation. I think there should be a limit for claiming any nonsense.

3) Ok, here if you read Dr. Khalifa's translation in full detail, you will find that he tells us that the earth is a creature. In the Khalifa translation, Rashad points out that before we were born into this earth we were all standing before God and we had to make a decision. This is all in the introduction, you have to read it to understand it. You can believe this or not, it doesn't matter. Once you realize that we believe the earth is a creature that has made a better choice than the human being then this verse makes sense.

Dear dvice19,
First of all what you are saying it is not Dr. Khalifa's translation! It is Dr. Khalifa's illusional fairytale!
And I might add an absurd fairytale! So, according to Dr. Khalifa's fairytale these new suns and the new planets which are forming inside the nebula clouds they are creatures! If you base your argument based on Dr. Khalifa's fairytale, then respectfully I have to disagree with that baseless fairytale. If we want to discuss other scholars’ fairytales then the main point of our discussion which is examining the verses of the Holy Koran would get lost in that process. We are encouraged by Holy Koran to examine it verses freely. Examining this verse just proves how absurd the verses of Holy Koran can be.

(Because of the limitation of 10000 characters I will answer part 4 in my next post.)

May God Bless Us ALL
Unes

 

[Unes]

4) [6:136] They even set aside a share of GOD's provisions of crops and livestock, saying, "This share belongs to GOD," according to their claims, "and this share belongs to our idols." However, what was set aside for their idols never reached GOD, while the share they set aside for GOD invariably went to their idols. Miserable indeed is their judgment.

Poor Mighty God, he was cheated by the Idols for his portion of the provisions of crops and livestock!
I guess Prophet Mohammad was hallucinating when he revealed this beauty!
The same goes for the following verse:

[6:108] Do not curse the idols they set up beside GOD, lest they blaspheme and curse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done.

This is so weird; Mighty God is concerned that the Idols worshippers might curse him!?
What a tragedy!? This sounds that Mighty God lacks any self confidence!

Here is another profound verse:

[22 : 47] They challenge you to bring retribution, and GOD never fails to fulfill His prophecy.A day of your Lord is like a thousand of your years.

PICKTHAL translation [22:47]: And they will bid thee hasten on the Doom, and Allah faileth not His promise, but lo! a Day with Allah is as a thousand years of what ye reckon.

This is so absurd; because, Time should not apply to God! Otherwise like us God will age too! And maybe someday he will die too!

In this verse Prophet Mohammad really blew it! Prophet Mohammad had thought whatever applies to us, it also applies to God, but in much grander scale! So, if we live 70 years, then God lives 70,000,000 years!

Besides, if the indication is that our day in heaven in the presence of God is like a thousand years. That is as meaningless point too! Because why should scale of time be a factor when we supposed to be in the heaven forever!?

If in heaven the days are this lengthy, then the nights will be this lengthy too! Then, what would happen if we get a sleepless night!? And what is the advantage of the long days!?

The verses of Holy Koran are supposed to give us the guidance to benefit us in this life on this earth, what is the point of discussing of some fuzzy issues which have no plausible meaning as far as we are concerned!? We need to resolve the issues of our lives here, on this earth, before we can discuss the nature of our being after our death.

4) All that this verse is saying is that the idol worshippers chose their idols instead of God. It doesn't hurt God is the least, it means the idol worshippers go to hell. So they have made a miserable choice.

Dear dvice19,
Now my friend, who is brushing off the facts!? Perhaps you need to read these verses and my comments more carefully!

May God Bless Us ALL
Unes