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Holy Koran and Facts

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Unes, Feb 23, 2009.

  1. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    “In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful”



    Holy Koran and Facts


    I think it is useful to give you my background before I delve into this topic.
    In advance I wish to thank my readers for tolerating the short-comings of my novice writings.

    I was born in 1947 in Mashed – Iran. My parents believed and practiced Islam and we were members of Shiite branch of Islam. Up to age of twenty three I also followed the Islamic faith and I read numerous books and articles about the Islamic teaching, Islamic history and Islamic ideology. I attended many lectures and discussions about the Islamic faith. I also listened to numerous radio broadcast lectures on many aspects of the Islamic faith. At present time I believe in Almighty God, who is the Creator of this Universe. I do believe Mighty God is influencing our lives all the time, and God is in control of our destiny. Because of my background naturally, the Islamic teachings fundamentally have influenced my thoughts.

    I got my BS degree in Physics from TehranUniversity. I moved to US in 1972. I got my MS degree from San FranciscoStateUniversity. In 1977 I dropped out of PHD program at UCLA. Because of my background in science I have tried to be very objective writing this article.



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    When religions are influencing our laws and our public policies, then religions are a Political Issue, and as a concern member of human race we are obligated to examine the validity of their claims very closely without any intimidation and with absolute freedom.


    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    In this article I got the translation of all the verses of Holy Koran from the following site:
    http://www.submission.org/Q-T.html
    And for clarity sometimes I added one or two other translations to resolve any ambiguity that might exist in one translation, or to confirm the validity of the translation.

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


    [17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

    [39:17] As for those who discard the worship of all idols, and devote themselves totally to GOD alone, they have deserved happiness. Give good news to My servants.
    [39:18] They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom GOD has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.
    Pickthalltranslation [39:18]. Who listen to speech and follow the best of it. Those are the ones Allah has guided, and those are people of understanding.

    [4:82] Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.
    PICKTHAL Translation [4:82] Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity.

    [47:24] Why do they not study the Quran carefully? Do they have locks on their minds?

    I admire and cherish these verses from the bottom of my heart; these verses encourage us to study Holy Koran and use our own intelligence and judgment. This is the true enlightenment which all of us should submit to it unanimously. This is the essence of our enlightened humanity. Prophet Mohammad was truly a visionary who clearly envisioned these remarkable principles long before the modern world began to comprehend the significance of these principles. He was at least a millennium ahead of his time. These verses are the foundation of our modern enlightened civilization, and the people who disregard these beautiful principles, they have impeached themselves beyond any excuse.

    Some statements from Prophet Mohammad:

    “The Greatest duty of a Muslim is to acquire knowledge.”

    “The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of a martyr.”



    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


    Now, I have the following concern about the verses of the Holy Koran. If verses of Holy Koran were meant for the righteous people whom God already had enlighten their hearts, then why God bothered sending so many verses regarding the fate of the disbelievers!? On the other hand if God by sending verses of Holy Koran has genuinely tried to enlighten all mankind, then we have to conclude that God has failed in this mission. And such failure from God is not acceptable.

    For sure if God was serious in enlightening all Mankind, then he should have done so in much simpler and clearer ways, which would have left no doubt or confusion in people’s mind to dispute his presence and his message. This could have been achieved by a simple physical miracle. After the drowning of the Pharaoh’s army, God could have restored the departed Red Sea as the permanent miracle to enlighten all Mankind. Throughout our Abrahamic Holy Books this magnificent miracle has been celebrated. Wouldn’t this magnificent miracle be the convincing evidence that people are looking for? After all God provided such evidence for one occasion and one group of people, then why deny this convincing evidence from the rest of the humanity!?

    Of course that time the purpose of the Red Sea miracle was meant to save the Israelites from the impending threat from the Pharaoh’s soldiers. But, a permanent departed Red Sea miracle would have served saving the people’s souls from the evils of the Devil. And vast majority of people agree for sure saving the souls is more important than saving the body! Actually this is the essence of our religions; our bodily experiences are for a life time, but our souls experiences are for eternity. That single physical miracle could have settled the whole question of God’s presence beyond any doubt, and then all the people’s attention would have been focused to devise new ways worshipping God, rather than wasting their energy trying to prove or disprove his presence!

    I hate to think that I could settle this issue with this simple solution and God did not! Actually, thinking that God refused to provide us a clear and timeless physical miracle and instead he sent us contradictory messages with some questionable prophets, that by itself create a serious flaw in God’s character.And this is not acceptable either. So, the only alternative rational conclusion that I can come up for Prophet Mohammad’s claim is, that his claim is very questionable, and he is not the prophet that he claims he is, and he himself authored the verses of the Holy Koran, and there was no reciting from God. This conclusion resolves many contradicting issues in the verses of the Holy Koran which I will expose them later on in this thread.

    ( The limitation of the 10,000 character forced me to split my summarizing comments into this post and the next post.)

    May God Bless Us ALL
    Unes
     
  2. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    Holy Koran and Facts


    (Continuation of the comments)

    As you see the whole concept of God sending his enlightened messages through the prophets to guide humanity does not make any sense. This is a common fraudulent practice which was adopted by the Abrahamic religions and it needs to be exposed. Our enlighten humanity has to do much better than this. This is a great sin of the highest degree to associate so much ignorance to All Knowledgeable God. Just this point exposes the falsehood of the Abrahamic Theologies. How can a limited God who fails the basic understanding of the nature be the creator of this magnificent Universe!? This is an absolute insult to human intelligence. Almighty God blessed us with this magnificent intelligence to recognize his glory and to get enlightened with his sublime presence. We can not dodge our duty and still claim that we are on God’s side!

    In the following posts I will provide many indisputable evidences from the verses of the Holy Koran and I will prove the Holy Koran is a hoax, rather than the ultimate document for the Truth! Let us put an end to this fraud. We can not allow ourselves to fear from any intimidation. Our free spirits resents such fear. We have to help our Muslim brothers and sisters to recognize the short coming of their faith. A deceptive faith is not good for the welfare of our humanity; as a result the whole humanity suffers because of such faulty belief system. Our quest for our spiritual enlightenment has been suffocated by these ancient theologies. We need to break up these limiting chains and unleash our spirits to get closer to the Divine Spirit. The Divine Spirit is in full harmony with all our intelligent findings. All decent and righteous people in their right conscience mind have to make an effort in this cause. This is the right time to achieve this long time humanity’s aspiration and get ride off any illusions. Our misguided illusions can hardly direct us to the Truth. It is about time that we have our spiritual break through. We should not waste our energy dissecting the ancient and out-dated inspirations. We need to analyze our today’s inspirations which are in tune with our present knowledge of our environment. Our inspirations and our revelations are strongly connected to our knowledge, to our enlightenments, and to our daily life challenges. God is with every one of us all the time. We need to focus on the events of our own lives, God is here communicating with us. But, I do admit, only very rarely we get blessed to recognize these communications. This is the age of discovering new frontiers, and we can not neglect the most important field of our existence; our spiritual Odyssey.

    May God Bless Us ALL
    Unes
     
  3. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    Holy Koran and the Christianity

    [4:82] Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.
    PICKTHAL Translation [4:82] Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity.

    Holy Bible was well established on 321 AD, long before Prophet Mohammad recited the verses of the Holy Koran between 610 - 632 AD.

    In the following few verses the Holy Koran approves of the Holy Bible and the Christianity, while at the same time it vehemently rejects Trinity and the core Principal of the Christianity belief; that Jesus is son of God, and he is equal to God; the Father! As you will observe this theme has been repeated in numerous verses, and it is no way that this notion could be dismissed as a slip of tongue or a false interpretation. So in a nutshell, the Holy Koran accepts the Christianity but it totally rejects the Trinity. How can that be!? This position is clearly a double talk. Nobody should accept this deception from the Holy Koran, which praises truthfulness and righteousness as the foundation of its teaching. As a matter of fact Holy Koran verse [4:82], testifies that any contradiction in the content of the Holy Koran is a solid evidence for dismissal of the Holy Koran as word of God. And here I am solidly exposing some of its contradictions. Prophet Mohammad who recites such conflicting messages on such an important issue he can not be trusted, and we can not accept his claim that he is the messenger of Mighty God!

    [5:82] You will find that the worst enemies of the believers are the Jews and the idol worshipers. And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.

    [4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son.To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.

    [5:72] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, "O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord and your Lord." Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers.
    [5:73] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is a third of a trinity. There is no god except the one god. Unless they refrain from saying this, those who disbelieve among them will incur a painful retribution.

    [6:101] The Initiator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have a son, when He never had a mate? He created all things, and He is fully aware of all things.

    [9:30] The Jews said, "Ezra is the son of GOD,"while the Christians said, "Jesus is the son of GOD!" These are blasphemies uttered by their mouths. They thus match the blasphemies of those who have disbelieved in the past. GOD condemns them. They have surely deviated.
    [9:31] They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords, instead of GOD. Others deified the Messiah, son of Mary. They were all commanded to worship only one god. There is no god except He. Be He glorified, high above having any partners.

    [10:68] They said, "GOD has begotten a son!" Be He glorified. He is the Most Rich. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth.You have no proof to support such a blasphemy. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?

    [17:111] And proclaim: "Praise be to GOD, who has never begotten a son, nor does He have a partner in His kingship, nor does He need any ally out of weakness," and magnify Him constantly.

    [18:4] And to warn those who said, "GOD has begotten a son!"

    [18:26] Say, "GOD is the best knower of how long they stayed there." He knows all secrets in the heavens and the earth. By His grace you can see; by His grace you can hear. There is none beside Him as Lord and Master, and He never permits any partners to share in His kingship.

    [19:30] (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of GOD. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet.

    This is a false statement, because Jesus did not bring any NEW scripture or any Gospel. Jesus was a Jew and he preached as a Jew and he died as a Jew.

    [19:34] That was Jesus, the son of Mary, and this is the truth of this matter, about which they continue to doubt.
    [19:35] It does not befit GOD that He begets a son, be He glorified. To have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.

    [19:88] They said, "The Most Gracious has begotten a son"!
    [19:89] You have uttered a gross blasphemy.
    [19:90] The heavens are about to shatter, the earth is about to tear asunder, and the mountains are about to crumble.
    [19:91] Because they claim that the Most Gracious has begotten a son.
    [19:92] It is not befitting the Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

    ( The limitation of the 10,000 character forced me to split the Christianity Verses into this post and the next post.)

    May God Bless Us ALL
    Unes
     
  4. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    Holy Koran and the Christianity Continued

    [21:26] Yet, they said,"The Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Glory be to Him. All (messengers) are (His) honored servants.

    [23:32] We sent to them a messenger from among them, saying, "You shall worship GOD. You have no other god beside Him. Would you not be righteous?"

    [23:91] GOD has never begotten a son. Nor was there ever any other god beside Him. Otherwise, each god would have declared independence with his creations, and they would have competed with each other for dominance. GOD be glorified; far above their claims.

    [23:117] Anyone who idolizes beside GOD any other god, and without any kind of proof, his reckoning rests with his Lord. The disbelievers never succeed.

    [25:2] The One to whom belongs all sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. He never had a son, nor does He have any partners in sovereignty. He created everything in exact measure; He precisely designed everything.

    [29:46] Do not argue with the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) except in the nicest possible manner - unless they transgress - and say, "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is one and the same; to Him we are submitters."

    But the verses of Holy Koran reveal that Christianity can never reconcile with Islam!

    [37:151] Indeed, they grossly blaspheme when they say –
    [37:152] "GOD has begotten a son." Indeed, they are liars.
    [37:157] Show us your book, if you are truthful.

    [42:15] This is what you shall preach, and steadfastly maintain what you are commanded to do, and do not follow their wishes. And proclaim: "I believe in all the scriptures sent down by GOD. I was commanded to judge among you equitably. GOD is our Lord and your Lord. We have our deeds and you have your deeds. There is no argument between us and you. GOD will gather us all together; to Him is the ultimate destiny."

    This is a very nice reconciliation verse. But, the problem is the verses of Holy Koran vehemently rejects the core principal of the Holy Bible!

    [43:81] Proclaim: "If the Most Gracious did have a son, I would still be the foremost worshiper."

    [57:27] Subsequent to them, we sent our messengers. We sent Jesus the son of Mary, and we gave him the Injeel (Gospel), and we placed in the hearts of his followers kindness and mercy. But they invented hermitism (monasticism) which we never decreed for them. All we asked them to do was to uphold the commandments approved by GOD. But they did not uphold the message as they should have. Consequently, we gave those who believed among them their recompense, while many of them were wicked.

    [72:3] " `The Most High is our only Lord. He never had a mate, nor a son.

    Prophet Mohammad was brilliant to describe God beyond our imagination. But how could he have made such an obvious blunder about the Christianity!? Prophet Mohammad had very shallow knowledge of the Christianity and this fact is reflected very clearly in the verses of the Holy Koran. Prophet Mohammad dared to pull such an extreme hoax on humanity!

    May God Bless Us ALL
    Unes
     
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  5. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    Mother Mary Conceiving Jesus

    [19:16] Mention in the scripture Mary. She isolated herself from her family, into an eastern location.
    [19:17] While a barrier separated her from them, we sent to her our Spirit. He went to her in the form of a human being.
    [19:18] She said, "I seek refuge in the Most Gracious, that you may be righteous."
    [19:19] He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you a pure son."
    [19:20] She said, "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me; I have never been unchaste."
    [19:21] He said, "Thus said your Lord, `It is easy for Me. We will render him a sign for the people, and mercy from us. This is a predestined matter.' "
    [19:22] When she bore him, she isolated herself to a faraway place.
    [19:23] The birth process came to her by the trunk of a palm tree. She said, "(I am so ashamed;) I wish I were dead before this happened, and completely forgotten."

    Well, Mary has to be ashamed of herself to seek refuge to a stranger man, and getting pregnant outside of a wedlock!

    Is this a good example for young girls!? They might get tempted to have sexual activities for the hope of conceiving from the spirit! After all, when we are in the mood, our sexual activities are heavenly! Especially when we have a cooperating partner!

    In this story God said that he sent his spirit to Mary. This means that God’s spirit is a separate entity from God. So the spirit is not God. And the spirit said to Mary: "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you a pure son." So, this is the spirit (a messenger from God) who granted Mary a pure son.

    But in the following verse the same story is described differently!

    [21:91] As for the one who maintained her virginity, we blew into her from our spirit, and thus, we made her and her son a portent for the whole world.
    PICKTHAL Translation [21:91]: And she who was chaste, therefore We breathed into her (something) of Our Spirit and made her and her son a token for (all) peoples.

    In this verse this is God himself who blows from his spirit into Mary, to pregnant her. But in verse [19:19] God’s messenger is the one who made Mary pregnant. It is paramount to tell a story without any confusion, especially where the emphasis has been on righteousness! Such mistake and confusion it is not acceptable from God. So, we can confidently conclude that this is the Prophet Mohammad who is making up this story in different versions!

    There is another fundamental problem in this passage. Holy Koran repeatedly emphasizes that the image of God is beyond our comprehension. Now in this passage it tells us that God sent his spirit to Mary, and that spirit took a human form. Then we can interject, at that interval when God’s spirit was performing his miracle on Mary, he was acting on his own devises, and also in that period God was functioning independent of his spirit! All these interjections shade a new light on that un-knowable image of God! This image of God has some similarity to the Trinity image of God in Christianity! Then why Holy Koran so bluntly rejects the image of God in Trinity theology!? Isn’t this a contradiction, of the serious kind!? Also, we read that God created Adam with his own hands. Don’t these assertions give us some clues about the image of God? In this image God looks like a human being!? So, God’s image is not that un-knowable!

    [38:75] He said, "O Satan, what prevented you from prostrating before what I created with My hands? Are you too arrogant? Have you rebelled?"
    PICKTHAL Translation [38:75]: He said: O Iblis! What hindereth thee from falling prostrate before that which I have created with both My hands? Art thou too proud or art thou of the high exalted?

    May God Bless Us ALL
    Unes
     
  6. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    But Unes, Muslim scholars have talked about the imagined "corrupting" of the Jewish and Christian scriptures for centuries. A flaw in your argument is in thinking that Muslims accept the scriptures of Judaism and Christianity, as they are.

    My understanding is that Muslims accept the theoretically unaltered scriptures prior to -- so the theory goes -- when they became "corrupted". For example, where Christian and Jewish texts differ from the Qur'an that is an obvious sign that the former has been corrupted by wicked men of ill repute. The parts that agree with the Qur'an are considered to be genuine. This is also why there is so much talk about how the Qur'an is protected from change or and cannot be corrupted. It's a bit of a childish argument, but it is all they have, so one has to be somewhat understanding on the matter. ;)

    What I am unable to fathom is how Muslims can believe in the Virgin birth and yet the product of that birth is not the "son" of the "father". I have had it explained to me by several Muslims and Bahai's also offered their "esteemed" opinion, but alas, their collective reasoning just doesn't make much sense.
     
    #6 YmirGF, Feb 23, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2009
  7. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    Welcome Unes,i cannot add much to what you have written but i look forward to the replies you will get and i hope for a lively discussion.
    Regards
     
  8. neves

    neves Active Member

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    Sorry if I am rude... But i really don't want to bother reading everything you posted... but if you want to talk about one topic at a time, then maybe we can get somewhere...
     
  9. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey
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    ***Mod Post***
    This thread has been moved to Religious Debates.
     
  10. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    Dear YmirGF,
    Actually such argument is well established in the Muslim communities. I grew up in Islamic environment, listening to those arguments. When you have no knowledge about the Holy Bible, then naturally you accept what the scholars are explaining to you. You assume that those scholars have done their research and what they are telling you are the facts.

    Now let us examine the facts. The Holy Bible which was canonized on 321 AD has not changed. The Holy Bible which we have today is the same Holy Bible which was canonized at 321 AD, and it was present at 610 AD, when Prophet Mohammad was reciting the verses of the Holy Koran. So the argument that the Christian Church has altered the Holy Bible is totally false. So, those scholars were lying to their Muslim audiences.

    In fact this is the same Holy Bible which Prophet Mohammad was accepting it as word of God, without reading its content! If Prophet Mohammad had read the Holy Bible, then, for sure he would have avoided this subject altogether, and he would have not exposed his ignorance.

    My friend, don’t be confused, you are pointing at another contradiction!

    My friend neves, the topic is “Holy Koran and Facts”. I am exposing the contradictions within the verses of the Holy Koran. I welcome your comments if you think I have misrepresented any item.

    May God Bless Us ALL
    Unes

     
  11. Bishadi

    Bishadi Active Member

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    The works, time and effort you have given is of Love and compassion.

    Wow!

    Thank you and Peace to you and your fathers/mothers.

    :clap
     
    #11 Bishadi, Feb 23, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2009
  12. Bishadi

    Bishadi Active Member

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    and rightly so ............ notice the gazillion sects?

    Often an evangelical preacher will re-write the scriptures themselves for his congregation.

    Which version....?

    perhaps the version you read is not what was observed then when quran was written... in fact, which copy of the orignal Nicea book, before the english translation are you observing?

    the flaw is believing any named religious observance is 'thinking' the same.... for example gnosis, orthodox, catholics and protestants.............. are they 'christian'........? i say .......... nope!
     
  13. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    "Faulty Religious Myths can not take us far."

    What happens when you take one faulty religious myth and compare it to another faulty religious myth?
    You end up with nothing but how they differ.

    Which is all the first three posts have done.

    Before you can declare one religion false, you have to prove one religion to be true.
     
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  14. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    Why is that? Can't they all be false?

    I am unworthy of your self-evident genius.
     
  15. Bishadi

    Bishadi Active Member

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    me personally........... i hope not.........
    the mightiest, share what they have learned not just for their own development but to give others a chance to see for themselves

    you the boss and know it; please assist others in building what you know is true, not what is believed.

    me the mouse who is still from sight
     
  16. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    Dear Mestemia,
    I have not favored any of the established religions! I wrote:
    “As you see the whole concept of God sending his enlightened messages through the prophets to guide humanity does not make any sense. This is a common fraudulent practice which was adopted by the Abrahamic religions and it needs to be exposed.”

    Where did you get that idea!?
    Any idea or theory has to be consistent at least within its own structure! Islam can not condone the Holy Bible as word of God, and at the same time condemn the Trinity! This is an inconsistent position, which impeaches itself.

    May God Bless Us ALL
    Unes
     
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  17. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Only if you are one of those who Calvinise the Bible in order to support the Non-Biblical trinity Doctrine.

    Next you will be saying that the Bible says Masturbation is a sin, that Christians are commanded not to judge others, and that God does not accept human sacrifices.:rolleyes:
     
  18. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    My friend why you are so confused!?
    Are you challenging me for the concept of the consistency in ideologies!?

    Do you deny for the Christian Church Holy Bible is word of God!?
    Do you deny that the Holy Bible stands for Trinity!?
    So if you accept the Bible as word of God, then you are bound to accept Trinity!

    May God Bless Us ALL
    Unes
     
  19. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Nice try, but I do not fall for the propaganda so easily.
     
  20. kai

    kai ragamuffin

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    Hello Unes
    Correct me if i am wrong but didn't the corruption happen before or even during the canonization ?so the Old and new testaments available to the prophet were already corrupted.
     
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