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History and Jesus

Well to me the fact that Christmas and Easter are Pagan holidays built around Pagan myth as well, is some proof that Christianity was started as a Pagan Myth.

It's not a 'fact' that they are pagan holidays. There were pagan holidays that occurred at a similar time of the year around the solstices (not necessarily 25 Dec), but that doesn't mean Christmas and Easter began as pagan holidays.

Easter for one was from the Jewish passover.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
It's not a 'fact' that they are pagan holidays. There were pagan holidays that occurred at a similar time of the year around the solstices (not necessarily 25 Dec), but that doesn't mean Christmas and Easter began as pagan holidays.

Easter for one was from the Jewish passover.

The Christmas tree Santa clause elves Peter rabbit Easter eggs the way we celebrate the dates Christmas day the birthday of many other Gods.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
Firstly, why should anyone care about what you friend thinks? Who is this person?
He is a historuan has websights about Gravestones of Native American chief and wrote 2 books about the wild west.

Secondly, parsimony. A wandering Jewish preacher named Jesus who gained a following and was executed by Rome isn't an extraordinary claim. That's the question we're dealing with, nothing else.


These people fall in roughly two categories. New Age/Neo Pagan quacks and or atheist ideologues with axes to grind. Credible historians of relevant expertise are by in large not sympathetic. Much like your quip about the Jews denying an historical Jesus, the notion that there's significant and credible support for mythicism among credible scholars is a "fact" almost entirely of your own imagining.

No its a fact. There are historians and credible people who believe Jesus was a myth. In fact after the book came Pagan Christ, bible teachers and Unitarian teachers at the Unity church and UU church who had divinity degrees, religion degrees taught classes on the Pagan Christ.

Wiki mentions the Myth theory of Christ.

You're not alone, just that those who agree with you aren't actually experts.

Finally, this argument that the Jews could have only accepted Jesus if he were real is flawed to the point of being laughable.

Uh no, the whole entire Jesus story came from the old testament, Christianity comes from the Jewish Messiah movement.It started in the old testament with Moses.

Jesus full filled the law according to the bible and old testament Jewish prophecy. If Jesus had been crucified and raised from the dead Jews would have embraced him ,Messiah Jews would have embraced him and Jews would have converted.

I use to date a Jewish guy named Mitch he told me the same thing if Jesus was real Jews would have known him.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
My guy friend is a historian with a web sight he owns on Native American grave stones.He has written 2 books on history.

When the Pagan Christ came out teachers with divinity degrees at the Unity church and UU churches taught classes on it, they are very smart people.
 
The Christmas tree Santa clause elves Peter rabbit Easter eggs the way we celebrate the dates Christmas day the birthday of many other Gods.

No it wasn't the birthday of many other gods, that's just an internet myth.

Christmas trees, Santa and elves only appeared long after Christmas started to be celebrated so have nothing to do with its origins.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
There's little to poison. Mythicism is a bandwagon.


This may be a good start.
Christ myth theory - Wikipedia

This is pretty good review of history of the 'Christ myth theory.' Though the boundary between describing Jesus Christ as completely a created composite myth of a Messianic person, and those who propose Jesus Christ is a real person, and the gospels represent a degree of additions of myth and glorification hype common in biographies of historical persons in the ancient cultures of the world is not clear. Yes, the contemporary scholar view is the Jesus was a historical person of the time, but the question is to what degree does mythology, and glorification hype play a role in the gospels?

I have read and have most of Bart Ehrman's bools. and I have attended some of his talks, because he teaches in UNC near where I live. From a secular scholarly view I believe Bart is mainstream and one of the best sources for understanding the scholarly view of the life of Jesus.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
No it wasn't the birthday of many other gods, that's just an internet myth.

I disagree, the Winter solstice is indeed the traditional birth time of European ancient Gods(?) or mythical manifestations of God, and important religious holiday for these cultures.

From: BBC - Religions - Paganism: Winter Solstice

The Pagan celebration of Winter Solstice (also known as Yule) is one of the oldest winter celebrations in the world.

Ancient people were hunters and spent most of their time outdoors. The seasons and weather played a very important part in their lives. Because of this many ancient people had a great reverence for, and even worshipped the sun. The Norsemen of Northern Europe saw the sun as a wheel that changed the seasons. It was from the word for this wheel, houl, that the word yule is thought to have come. At mid-winter the Norsemen lit bonfires, told stories and drank sweet ale.

The ancient Romans also held a festival to celebrate the rebirth of the year. Saturnalia ran for seven days from the 17th of December. It was a time when the ordinary rules were turned upside down. Men dressed as women and masters dressed as servants. The festival also involved decorating houses with greenery, lighting candles, holding processions and giving presents.

The Winter Solstice falls on the shortest day of the year (21st December) and was celebrated in Britain long before the arrival of Christianity. The Druids (Celtic priests) would cut the mistletoe that grew on the oak tree and give it as a blessing. Oaks were seen as sacred and the winter fruit of the mistletoe was a symbol of life in the dark winter months.

It was also the Druids who began the tradition of the yule log. The Celts thought that the sun stood still for twelve days in the middle of winter and during this time a log was lit to conquer the darkness, banish evil spirits and bring luck for the coming year.

Many of these customs are still followed today. They have been incorporated into the Christian and secular celebrations of Christmas.
From:"
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
It's not a 'fact' that they are pagan holidays. There were pagan holidays that occurred at a similar time of the year around the solstices (not necessarily 25 Dec), but that doesn't mean Christmas and Easter began as pagan holidays.

As far as Christmas goes the designation of the day of as the birth of Jesus is Roman at a time Rome was deep in ancient mythology as my previous reference noted the less biased view of the origins. The Winter Solstice was deep in Roman and European culture long prior to the official designation as either pagan or Christian holy day.
 
I disagree, the Winter solstice is indeed the traditional birth time of European ancient Gods(?) or mythical manifestations of God, and important religious holiday for these cultures.

Which gods were born on the 25th Dec?

Obviously the solstices are dates of significance in many cultures and have festivals attached to them.

One argument regarding the dating of Christmas is that these are auspicious occasions. So rather than 'copying' pagans to 'appropriate' their festivals, they all had the same reasons for choosing these dates which are common to diverse cultures.

As far as Christmas goes the designation of the day of as the birth of Jesus is Roman at a time Rome was deep in ancient mythology as my previous reference noted the less biased view of the origins. The Winter Solstice was deep in Roman and European culture long prior to the official designation as either pagan or Christian holy day.

Saturnalia was a multi day festival that began a week or so before the 25th.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Which gods were born on the 25th Dec?

Not necessary for an actual birthday it was the traditional date of the rebirth, renewal in honor of the Gods.

Obviously the solstices are dates of significance in many cultures and have festivals attached to them.

One argument regarding the dating of Christmas is that these are auspicious occasions. So rather than 'copying' pagans to 'appropriate' their festivals, they all had the same reasons for choosing these dates which are common to diverse cultures.

Obviously the birth date for Jesus was unknown and remains unknown until Rome designated the date of the birth of Jesus Christ to conform to the dates of the traditional Roman holidays, which are far more ancient in the cultures of Europe, and not in Hebrew traditions.


Saturnalia was a multi day festival that began a week or so before the 25th.

Correct. What we ended up with as December 25th is a corruption of the calendar as the original intent was the Winter Solstice. The dates designated as Saturnalia and Christmas are based on far more ancient celebrations of the Winter Solstice as holy or religious holidays.
 
Obviously the birth date for Jesus was unknown

True

and remains unknown until Rome designated the date of the birth of Jesus Christ to conform to the dates of the traditional Roman holidays, which are far more ancient in the cultures of Europe, and not in Hebrew traditions.

Well there is no actual documentary evidence for that view, and it doesn't conform exactly to the dates of the traditional Roman Saturnalia which started earlier. It's possible, although it can only ever be speculative. It certainly isn't the 'fact' that many people seem to assume.

Also the 25th date was likely being observed by groups like the Donatists when Rome was still persecuting Christians.

In about 400 C.E., Augustine of Hippo mentions a local dissident Christian group, the Donatists, who apparently kept Christmas festivals on December 25, but refused to celebrate the Epiphany on January 6, regarding it as an innovation. Since the Donatist group only emerged during the persecution under Diocletian in 312 C.E. and then remained stubbornly attached to the practices of that moment in time, they seem to represent an older North African Christian tradition.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
True

Well there is no actual documentary evidence for that view, and it doesn't conform exactly to the dates of the traditional Roman Saturnalia which started earlier. It's possible, although it can only ever be speculative. It certainly isn't the 'fact' that many people seem to assume.

Exact dates are not necessary. It is generally accepted all over Europe and in Rome the celebrations were a week or longer centering on the Winter Solstice.
Also the 25th date was likely being observed by groups like the Donatists when Rome was still persecuting Christians.

In about 400 C.E., Augustine of Hippo mentions a local dissident Christian group, the Donatists, who apparently kept Christmas festivals on December 25, but refused to celebrate the Epiphany on January 6, regarding it as an innovation. Since the Donatist group only emerged during the persecution under Diocletian in 312 C.E. and then remained stubbornly attached to the practices of that moment in time, they seem to represent an older North African Christian tradition.

Vague unsubstantiated reference.

Better reference: From: How December 25 Became Christmas - Biblical Archaeology Society

Jesus’ ministry, miracles, Passion and Resurrection were often of most interest to first- and early-second-century C.E. Christian writers. But over time, Jesus’ origins would become of increasing concern. We can begin to see this shift already in the New Testament. The earliest writings—Paul and Mark—make no mention of Jesus’ birth. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke provide well-known but quite different accounts of the event—although neither specifies a date. In the second century C.E., further details of Jesus’ birth and childhood are related in apocryphal writings such as the Infancy Gospel of Thomas and the Proto-Gospel of James.b These texts provide everything from the names of Jesus’ grandparents to the details of his education—but not the date of his birth.

Finally, in about 200 C.E., a Christian teacher in Egypt makes reference to the date Jesus was born. According to Clement of Alexandria, several different days had been proposed by various Christian groups. Surprising as it may seem, Clement doesn’t mention December 25 at all. Clement writes: “There are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord’s birth, but also the day; and they say that it took place in the 28th year of Augustus, and in the 25th day of [the Egyptian month] Pachon [May 20 in our calendar] … And treating of His Passion, with very great accuracy, some say that it took place in the 16th year of Tiberius, on the 25th of Phamenoth [March 21]; and others on the 25th of Pharmuthi [April 21] and others say that on the 19th of Pharmuthi [April 15] the Savior suffered. Further, others say that He was born on the 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi [April 20 or 21].”2

Clearly there was great uncertainty, but also a considerable amount of interest, in dating Jesus’ birth in the late second century. By the fourth century, however, we find references to two dates that were widely recognized—and now also celebrated—as Jesus’ birthday: December 25 in the western Roman Empire and January 6 in the East (especially in Egypt and Asia Minor). The modern Armenian church continues to celebrate Christmas on January 6; for most Christians, however, December 25 would prevail, while January 6 eventually came to be known as the Feast of the Epiphany, commemorating the arrival of the magi in Bethlehem. The period between became the holiday season later known as the 12 days of Christmas.

The earliest mention of December 25 as Jesus’ birthday comes from a mid-fourth-century Roman almanac that lists the death dates of various Christian bishops and martyrs. The first date listed, December 25, is marked: natus Christus in Betleem Judeae: “Christ was born in Bethlehem of Judea.”3 In about 400 C.E., Augustine of Hippo mentions a local dissident Christian group, the Donatists, who apparently kept Christmas festivals on December 25, but refused to celebrate the Epiphany on January 6, regarding it as an innovation. Since the Donatist group only emerged during the persecution under Diocletian in 312 C.E. and then remained stubbornly attached to the practices of that moment in time, they seem to represent an older North African Christian tradition.

In the East, January 6 was at first not associated with the magi alone, but with the Christmas story as a whole.

So, almost 300 years after Jesus was born, we finally find people observing his birth in mid-winter. But how had they settled on the dates December 25 and January 6?

There are two theories today: one extremely popular, the other less often heard outside scholarly circles (though far more ancient).4

The most loudly touted theory about the origins of the Christmas date(s) is that it was borrowed from pagan celebrations. The Romans had their mid-winter Saturnalia festival in late December; barbarian peoples of northern and western Europe kept holidays at similar times. To top it off, in 274 C.E., the Roman emperor Aurelian established a feast of the birth of Sol Invictus(the Unconquered Sun), on December 25. Christmas, the argument goes, is really a spin-off from these pagan solar festivals. According to this theory, early Christians deliberately chose these dates to encourage the spread of Christmas and Christianity throughout the Roman world: If Christmas looked like a pagan holiday, more pagans would be open to both the holiday and the God whose birth it celebrated.




Despite its popularity today, this theory of Christmas’s origins has its problems. It is not found in any ancient Christian writings, for one thing. Christian authors of the time do note a connection between the solstice and Jesus’ birth: The church father Ambrose (c. 339–397), for example, described Christ as the true sun, who outshone the fallen gods of the old order. But early Christian writers never hint at any recent calendrical engineering; they clearly don’t think the date was chosen by the church. Rather they see the coincidence as a providential sign, as natural proof that God had selected Jesus over the false pagan gods.


It’s not until the 12th century that we find the first suggestion that Jesus’ birth celebration was deliberately set at the time of pagan feasts. A marginal note on a manuscript of the writings of the Syriac biblical commentator Dionysius bar-Salibi states that in ancient times the Christmas holiday was actually shifted from January 6 to December 25 so that it fell on the same date as the pagan Sol Invictus holiday.5 In the 18th and 19th centuries, Bible scholars spurred on by the new study of comparative religions latched on to this idea.6 They claimed that because the early Christians didn’t know when Jesus was born, they simply assimilated the pagan solstice festival for their own purposes, claiming it as the time of the Messiah’s birth and celebrating it accordingly.

More recent studies have shown that many of the holiday’s modern trappings do reflect pagan customs borrowed much later, as Christianity expanded into northern and western Europe. The Christmas tree, for example, has been linked with late medieval druidic practices. This has only encouraged modern audiences to assume that the date, too, must be pagan.

There are problems with this popular theory, however, as many scholars recognize. Most significantly, the first mention of a date for Christmas (c. 200) and the earliest celebrations that we know about (c. 250–300) come in a period when Christians were not borrowing heavily from pagan traditions of such an obvious character.

Granted, Christian belief and practice were not formed in isolation. Many early elements of Christian worship—including eucharistic meals, meals honoring martyrs and much early Christian funerary art—would have been quite comprehensible to pagan observers. Yet, in the first few centuries C.E., the persecuted Christian minority was greatly concerned with distancing itself from the larger, public pagan religious observances, such as sacrifices, games and holidays. This was still true as late as the violent persecutions of the Christians conducted by the Roman emperor Diocletian between 303 and 312 C.E.

This would change only after Constantine converted to Christianity. From the mid-fourth century on, we do find Christians deliberately adapting and Christianizing pagan festivals. A famous proponent of this practice was Pope Gregory the Great, who, in a letter written in 601 C.E. to a Christian missionary in Britain, recommended that local pagan temples not be destroyed but be converted into churches, and that pagan festivals be celebrated as feasts of Christian martyrs. At this late point, Christmas may well have acquired some pagan trappings. But we don’t have evidence of Christians adopting pagan festivals in the third century, at which point dates for Christmas were established. Thus, it seems unlikely that the date was simply selected to correspond with pagan solar festivals.

The December 25 feast seems to have existed before 312—before Constantine and his conversion, at least. As we have seen, the Donatist Christians in North Africa seem to have known it from before that time. Furthermore, in the mid- to late fourth century, church leaders in the eastern Empire concerned themselves not with introducing a celebration of Jesus’ birthday, but with the addition of the December date to their traditional celebration on January 6
 
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Exact dates are not necessary. It is generally accepted all over Europe and in Rome the celebrations were a week or longer centering on the Winter Solstice.

Which still doesn't change the fact that there is no documentary evidence for your perspective which, although possible, is at best speculative.

Vague unsubstantiated reference.

What are you talking about?

It is a very specific reference, to a specific named source, with a specific explanation about why the specific named group were unlikely to have simply copied a Roman diktat.


That is the exact same source I used and that I linked to. It also doesn't support your overall argument.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
Which still doesn't change the fact that there is no documentary evidence for your perspective which, although possible, is at best speculative.



What are you talking about?

It is a very specific reference, to a specific named source, with a specific explanation about why the specific named group were unlikely to have simply copied a Roman diktat.



That is the exact same source I used and that I linked to. It also doesn't support your overall argument.


Pagans have celebrated WInter Solstace on the 25th forever. I use to go to a Pagan UU church. They've done it forever. Something that's been done as rituals for thousands of years in a religion group does not need documentary proof whatever that is.

Sense there is proof that's been written Christians who claim Jesus had to be born in September or October not December there is no other reason why they chose that date,

When I was in the Christian church the 7th Day Adventist and the UPC church they taught that Constantinople changed the sabbath to Sunday and created the Trinity because he was Pagan.

Both those churches claimed also that Christmas was Pagan in origin, my sister who is Messianic Christian does not celebrate Christmas or Easter either and a whole lot full of Christians who disagree with you.

So people in your own religion disagree with you.

Santa Elves Rudolph the Red nosed rain deer Santa magically coming down your chimney flying a magical flying snow sled with presents in the sky,flying rain deer ,magical elves, Christmas tree, Peter cottontail rabbit bringing magical easter eggs yea that's all Pagan.

It is self explanatory and needs no proof nor explanation, its magic, do you believe in magic? Its magic its Pagan.

But that does not mean if Christians celebrate Christmas or Easter that it is Pagan, Christians celebrate Jesus they don't celebrate Paganism. So its not Pagan for you.That's all that counts.

Its Pagan in origin. But if you don;t believe practicing magic is Pagan oh well.
 
Sense there is proof that's been written Christians who claim Jesus had to be born in September or October not December there is no other reason why they chose that date,

There are generally considered to be 3 plausible explanations:

1. It was appropriated to attract pagans.
2. It is based on the 25th being exactly 9 months after the Annunciation on March 25th
3. It was chosen for the same reason that pagans chose it, it was an auspicious cosmological event. So both are based on a common cultural belief.

All are possibly true, but none of these can be asserted to be fact. For example, there is no documentary evidence to support the idea it was chosen to appropriated to attract pagans. Seeing as early Christians made a great effort to differentiate themselves from Pagans, even if it cost them their lives, it could reasonably be expected that there would be some documented disputes over such a brazen attempt to Paganise Christianity. Also, not all of Christendom was under the control of the Romans, meaning you might expect them to make a bit of a fuss about a Roman diktat of this nature.

By the point Christmas had been set, there is no real evidence of Roman attempts to appropriate pagan customs for christianity. While such things did later occur, they occurred after the date for Christmas had been set.

So people in your own religion disagree with you.

I'm an atheist so it doesn't bother me one way or the other outside of historical accuracy. I'm just saying what the evidence shows.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
There are generally considered to be 3 plausible explanations:

1. It was appropriated to attract pagans.
2. It is based on the 25th being exactly 9 months after the Annunciation on March 25th
3. It was chosen for the same reason that pagans chose it, it was an auspicious cosmological event. So both are based on a common cultural belief.

All are possibly true, but none of these can be asserted to be fact. For example, there is no documentary evidence to support the idea it was chosen to appropriated to attract pagans. Seeing as early Christians made a great effort to differentiate themselves from Pagans, even if it cost them their lives, it could reasonably be expected that there would be some documented disputes over such a brazen attempt to Paganise Christianity. Also, not all of Christendom was under the control of the Romans, meaning you might expect them to make a bit of a fuss about a Roman diktat of this nature.

By the point Christmas had been set, there is no real evidence of Roman attempts to appropriate pagan customs for christianity. While such things did later occur, they occurred after the date for Christmas had been set.



I'm an atheist so it doesn't bother me one way or the other outside of historical accuracy. I'm just saying what the evidence shows.


I'm sorry i assumed you were Christian.

However I still disagree with you the origins are Pagan, nothing else makes sense.

You have not provided any explanation for Christmas trees magical elves magical flying sleds santa clause or any of the rest of it.

Sense magic is Pagan and self explanatory there's nothing you could say to make that not Pagan, It would be like saying the Pagan religion is not Pagan, its Pagan.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Which still doesn't change the fact that there is no documentary evidence for your perspective which, although possible, is at best speculative.

What is totally speculative is the belief that Jesus was born on December 25th.


It is a very specific reference, to a specific named source, with a specific explanation about why the specific named group were unlikely to have simply copied a Roman diktat.

That is the exact same source I used and that I linked to. It also doesn't support your overall argument.

No it is not very specific, because it is at best a third hand reference recorded many years later, My references were specific to when and made the claims concerning the birth of Jesus.[/QUOTE]
 

lukethethird

unknown member
That's one of the beauties of sophistry, the point is much easier to make because you don't have to prove anything. You just need slick sounding arguments.

It's very easy to doubt. But the fact that doubt is easy to enunciate doesn't make that doubt credible. To make a positive case for anything is much harder to do. And if you expect Wikipedia or a person on an internet forum to make that case then you're being silly. If this is really about the merits of the scholarly opinion then you're going to have to read the relevant books that detail that opinion.

We have to read an entire book/s to determine that Jesus is historical? Houston, we have a problem.
 
What is totally speculative is the belief that Jesus was born on December 25th.

Yes, we've already agreed on that. What we are discussing is the reason why this date was chosen

No it is not very specific, because it is at best a third hand reference recorded many years later, My references were specific to when and made the claims concerning the birth of Jesus.

Ignoring that it's a 1st hand reference with a specific reasoned inference about a specific group, it still doesn't support your 'pagan appropriation' claim anyway. It only supports the point I've told you we both agree on.

So have you got any specific evidence for your claim that would make it anything more than speculative?
 
You have not provided any explanation for Christmas trees magical elves magical flying sleds santa clause or any of the rest of it.

These are 2 different issues.

1. The origins of Christmas Day on 25th Dec in the ancient Mediterranean.
2. Northern European cultural practices that influenced the festivities on 25 Dec long after it became established.

For 2 I agree that aspects of pre-Christian culture were assimilated into Christmas festivities and mythology.

For 1, these factors aren't relevant though as Christmas wasn't created in Northern Europe.
 
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