Historical evidence for the Torah

[Sean Keys]

The first 5 books marks the foundation of the 3 greatest monotheistic religions, yet there is only archealogical evidence for everything from Judges onwards, how do we weigh this up?

 

[Petrus]

Rather confusing..Your poll ask if there is theological evidence yet there is archaeological evidence? I realize the two are not the same but if there is archaeological evidence would there not be theological evidence? Considering it was all word of mouth before the 6th or 7th Century I would say were are doing good to have anything at all..

 

[exchemist]

The first 5 books marks the foundation of the 3 greatest monotheistic religions, yet there is only archealogical evidence for everything from Judges onwards, how do we weigh this up?

What can be meant by theological evidence?

 

[Orbit]

Theology isn't evidence, so the poll is meaningless.

 

[Petrus]

Theology isn't evidence, so the poll is meaningless.

I was going to say that but did not want to **** off any die hard fanatics.

 

[Wandering Monk]

The thread title asks if there is historical evidence but the poll asks if there is theological evidence.

A bit confusing

 

[gnostic]

The first 5 books marks the foundation of the 3 greatest monotheistic religions, yet there is only archealogical evidence for everything from Judges onwards, how do we weigh this up?

Why would you have “theological evidence” in the poll?

What is “theological evidence”?

I would and do believe that the Torah is the foundation for Judaism and Christianity.

But nothing in them have been verified through historical records or through archaeological evidence.

These five books that have been attributed to Moses, don’t even exist in the Late Bronze Age (c 1590 - c 1050 BCE). There are no version of the Torah dated to this period, where Moses lived from the late 16th century to late 15th century BCE, based on what 1 Kings 6:1 say, hence from 1527 to 1407 BCE, the times of Moses’ birth and death. Hence, 1 Kings 6:1 would put Moses leaving Egypt (Exodus 12:37) around 1447 BCE.

Don’t you think it is strange, Sean, that if Moses was the real author, then he wouldn’t he have known the names of pharaohs at the times his birth (Exodus 1 & 2), and the time when Moses performed his miracles and liberated his people from Egypt, before leaving the land he grew up in (Exodus 12:37)?

Why wouldn’t Moses include the names of kings or the name of his adopted mother (pharaoh’s daughter in Exodus 2) in Exodus?

If they were his contemporaries, then it would be very easy for Moses to know who these people, and yet they remained nameless.

It mean that whoever really wrote Exodus, don’t have any real knowledge of Egypt’s history.

 

[Petrus]

Why would you have “theological evidence” in the poll?

What is “theological evidence”?

I would and do believe that the Torah is the foundation for Judaism and Christianity.

But nothing in them have been verified through historical records or through archaeological evidence.

These five books that have been attributed to Moses, don’t even exist in the Late Bronze Age (c 1590 - c 1050 BCE). There are no version of the Torah dated to this period, where Moses lived from the late 16th century to late 15th century BCE, based on what 1 Kings 6:1 say, hence from 1527 to 1407 BCE, the times of Moses’ birth and death. Hence, 1 Kings 6:1 would put Moses leaving Egypt (Exodus 12:37) around 1447 BCE.

Don’t you think it is strange, Sean, that if Moses was the real author, then he wouldn’t he have known the names of pharaohs at the times his birth (Exodus 1 & 2), and the time when Moses performed his miracles and liberated his people from Egypt, before leaving the land he grew up in (Exodus 12:37)?

Why wouldn’t Moses include the names of kings or the name of his adopted mother (pharaoh’s daughter in Exodus 2) in Exodus?

If they were his contemporaries, then it would be very easy for Moses to know who these people, and yet they remained nameless.

It mean that whoever really wrote Exodus, don’t have any real knowledge of Egypt’s history.

It mean that whoever really wrote Exodus, don’t have any real knowledge of Egypt’s history.

Which is weird considering according to the Bible Moses was raised by the Egyptians..Puts a whole different light on it.

 

[gnostic]

Which is weird considering according to the Bible Moses was raised by the Egyptians..Puts a whole different light on it.

For years, I have believed in Genesis and Exodus, and took what I have read at face value, never questioning and never doubting the narratives.

And then less than 20 years, I began to have doubts with these stories, but it was only last year, that I came to realisation that neither Genesis, nor the Exodus, did the author or authors could name a single Egyptian ruler who were supposedly “contemporaries”.

Abraham, Joseph and Moses should have known names of the pharaohs living at that time.

Even Moses’ adopted mother was nameless, the pharaoh’s daughter and royal princess.

In 1 Kings 6:1 provided a clue as to when Moses and his people have left Egypt, starting at departing from Rameses (which I am assuming to be Pi-Ramesses, the “House of Ramesses”) in Exodus 12:37.

6 In the four hundred eightieth year after the Israelites came out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, which is the second month, he began to build the house of the Lord.

If we were to believe that Solomon actually ruled the united tribes of Israel, then his 4th year of reign would have been about 967 BCE.

That would have meant Moses departure (12:37) would have occurred in 1447 BCE, and that would have meant Moses ould have been born in 1527 BCE, and died around 1407 BCE.

These dates would have mean Moses’ story from birth to him leaving Egypt would have occurred in the New Kingdom period, more specifically the 18th dynasty (c 1549 - 1292 BCE), which was the most well known dynasty.

Moses would have been born (1527 BCE) during the reign of Ahmose I (1549 - 1524 BCE), the famous founder of the 18th dynasty, plus the king who drove out the Hyksos out of Egypt.

And the ten plagues (Exodus 7 to 11) and the Israelites departure from Ramses (Exodus 12:37) should have put these events, in the reign of Thutmose III (1479 - 1425 BCE). Thutmose was famous because he first jointly with his famous aunt and stepmother Hatshepsut (1479 - 1458 BCE), after his father’s death. And he was famous himself, because his empire had reached its zenith during his reign, which would have included Canaan.

Now, if Moses really did lived during this time, he should have known about Ahmose I to Thutmose III, then he would have known their names, because Egyptians did document their reigns in palace’s records, in their tombs and inscribed their achievements on stone stelae.

As I’ve said, I have only recently realized that Exodus left out names of Egypt’s kings, who was supposedly Moses’ contemporaries. I should have known that no names of kings should have been red flag, that whoever wrote didn’t the history of this dynasty.

Btw, Ahmose did have two daughters, and they were Meritamun and Sitamun, and Exodus couldn’t even name Moses’ adopted mother. The Egyptians also keep records of their families, eg parents, siblings, wives and children.

And in this period, male rulers often married their sisters (eg Ahmose), but in Thutmose’s case, he married his aunt and stepmother, Hatshepsut. Hatshepsut herself was not only married to Thutmose’s father, Thutmose II, Thutmose II and Hatshepsut were half-siblings.

Incest were the norm for royal families. But they also kept records of their relationship. So the question is, why the Exodus cannot name any name?

To me, that mean Exodus was written a lot later, and the author(s) knew nothing about any 18th dynasty history.

 

[Petrus]

There are also a 6th and 7th book of Mose's that was left out of the Bible.

http://www.texas-hoodoo.com/pdf/sixth book of moses.pdf

Read it online for yourself...It was left out of the Bible because it was considered occult in nature.