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Hindus: Vegetarians, move along

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Ardhanariswar, Nov 17, 2011.

  1. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    Really? Please elaborate.
     
  2. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    Well, not al species have the ability to rape. Humans and ape-likes do have it, it happens in nature all the time. (because it is easier to grab the female's limbs because of upposable thumbs and because of other factors I've heard)

    If people of the past hadn't took whicever like9 or 10 year old they found and raped her, then less human babies would have been had, and considering the high weakness of our species our chances would have been dramatically lower.

    Which naturaly brings us to the fact that pedophilia was a necesity in those times too.

    Times change. We've gotten better in a lot of things. The ADA (american Dietary association) says that a good vegetarian diet is healthy for all the stages of development of a human being and even high performance atletes.

    I am not saying any meat eater is an horrible person, I was one for 20 years. I am merely saying there is a more compassionate option. I know I am not perfect, I don't even care how much leather I use today (Maybe few? Maybe a lot? Maybe nothing? no idea) but I know it would be more compassionate to check out and stop using it.

    About the Ahimsa bit, yeah, it is true that it is inevitable that we kill to life (if even just our own cells that die every second), but that doesn't mean we cannot stop inecessary suffering, or that we cannot balance it out.
     
  3. Riverwolf

    Riverwolf Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
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    This is pure speculation, and is not equal to the fact that we've evolved this way thanks to a variety of food in our diets, including meat.
     
  4. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    My argument for an omnivorous diet is that it's beneficial for an individual's health from an evolutionary perspective. Simply put, we're meant to eat animals because we're made to eat them. Rape on the other hand does not affect heath of an individual.

    Just to let you know, the ADA gets its funding from these following sources:

    Abbott Pharmaceuticals
    Amylin Pharmaceuticals
    AstraZeneca
    Eli Lilly and Company
    GlaxoSmithKline
    Merck & Co.
    Pfizer Inc.
    Cadbury Schweppes
    Kraft Foods
    J.D. Smucker Company
    General Mills


    They only approve of vegetarianism because the diet allows for a high carbohydrate and sugar intake. For example, grains and cereals by General Mills, or candy by Cadbury. The ADA recommends 40-60 grams of carbohydrates PER MEAL.
     
    #24 Ardhanariswar, May 27, 2012
    Last edited: May 27, 2012
  5. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    6 months with 0 meat my blood results were perfect.

    I think I'll soon make another blood exam to regulate how things are going for me, but honestly, I expect same good results.

    So, let's say for the matter of argument, that by the 7th month you need meat.

    That is still a LOT less meat than what most people eat.
     
  6. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    I'm happy that's working out for you! Unfortunately with obesity, heart attacks, and diabetes on the rise, I find it hard to believe such a diet low in healthy fat and high in carbohydrates from grains can be possibly beneficial for most Americans.
     
  7. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    Its funnny you say that, vegetarianism lowers the risks for heart attacks.

    I mean :
    Heart Attack Grill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Is not precisely a vegetarian restaurant.

    About diabetes, I haven't researched much but:

    Meal Planning for Vegetarian Diets - American Diabetes Association

    extract:

    Is it safe for someone with diabetes to follow a vegetarian diet?
    Yes! A vegetarian diet is a healthy option, even if you have diabetes. Research supports that following this type of diet can help prevent and manage diabetes. In fact, research on vegan diets has found that carb and calorie restrictions were not necessary and still promoted weight loss and lowered participants' A1C.
     
  8. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    #28 Me Myself, May 27, 2012
    Last edited: May 27, 2012
  9. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    Nuts are good healthy fat. Avocado is too. Healthy vegetarian fat is out there.

    Lack of discipline and ignorance is what causes the heart attacks, obesity and diabetes.

    One of the strengths of my blood results with 6 months of vegetarian diet was my good fat, THAT I remember :D
     
  10. nameless

    nameless The Creator

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    may be, but it does not mean humans should necessarily continue that, we are no more apes.
    i dont think humans are designed to be omnivorous, our teeths and digestive system are not like those of other carnivorous or omnivorous, digesting raw meat is not that easy for us.
    humans can live on fruits, like monkeys do.
    debates are useless, let people decide whats good for them, people wont give up their cravings at any cost.
    the data is insufficient for this conclusion, there can be many factors to cause diabetes, close scientific studies are needed to find the exact reason.

    this does not mean we should live on meat.
    correct, but not all paths will lead to the same goal.
    i agree
    ascetism is not that easy,it is not a surprise that most people dont live such life, but they do respect ascetic people.

    you are absolutely wrong there, actually non-vegetarianism is the recent development.
    such yagnas even happen these days, does that mean eating meat is very common? terrible generalization.
    there is not enough records to prove this, not to forget that today even dalai lama consumes meat.

    have you ever tried to be vegetarian? harm in what sense?

    depends on how you define 'health'
    to me health is absense of disease, having flexible body, enough strength(i dont want to be a wrestler), feeling light etc, so far vegetarian diet is doing pretty good for me.
     
    #30 nameless, May 27, 2012
    Last edited: May 27, 2012
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  11. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    Humm... so it seems the point has been understood?

    It's not that I believe you cannot be a hindu without being a vegetarian (I consider me SOO far of being qualified to say that :D), it is not even by a longshot that I believe you are some bad person or something for not being a vegetarian.

    It is just that it is natural, given the explanation given, to understand that a vegetarian diet is more according to the principles of ahimsa than a non-vegetarian one.

    And, if for argument sake, there was some serious detriment to your health if you didn't eat meat again in your life, it would still be reasonable to eat meat only once every 6 months, and you would surely still be able to get all you need. Eating more than this is eating more than necessary and in such causing unnessecary pain to living things.

    I am still far from perfect even in regards to animal suffering. I think my wallet is made of leather. I will probably get rid of leather in some point of my life, which isn't now or today, but I know it would also be better to get rid of this, in the same way I know it is better to be a vegetarian.

    :)
     
  12. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    We share a common ancestor with them. As well as Gibbons, Chimpanzees, Gorillas, and Orangutans. All of whom have varied diets, including omnivorousness.

    If you're going to compare body parts between various species please read through this table which provides comparisons between humans, dogs, and sheep.

    Humans can also live exclusively on animal products. It certainly is possible to live exclusively on fruit as well. Though I wouldn't advocate it since fruit has been genetically bred to produce sweeter fruit today. Such high levels of fructose in a diet can really damage the liver and lead to diabetes. Animal eating doesn't lead to diabetes, liver damange, or any other harmful effects on the body.

    Please see this study. "Diets high in GL, GI, and starch and low in fiber were associated with an increased diabetes risk. Both carbohydrate quantity and quality seem to be important factors in diabetes prevention."

    Here's a plethora of other studies which show high carbohydrate diets lead to diabetes and heart related risks.

    Why not? Barring any ethical reason, from a health standpoint, its the perfect food. I stress the use of Animal Products versus Meat because meat doesn't include nutrient dense offal (animal organs).

    I am absolutely wrong? Animal eating was written in the Manu Smriti, which was written sometime between 200 BC and 200 AD. Only after Buddhist and Jain influence afterward, did most Hindus adopt vegetarianism.

    Please note that the Manu Smriti argued that killing animals is not really violence at all, but rather an act of benevolence as the slaughtered animal will attain a high rebirth in the cycle of reincarnation (5.32; 5.39-40; 5.42; 5.44).

    Jain and Buddhist sources show that the principle of nonviolence toward animals was an established rule in both religions as early as the 6th century BC. Please keep in mind various Buddhist sects have different practices and beliefs, just as today's Hindus do.

    Forget the argument between omnivore and vegetarian for a moment. Any diet high in grains, fruit, lentils is high in carbohydrates, and its been shown repeatedly that a high carbohydrate diet causes diabetes and heart disease (please refer to above links of studies).

    For most Indians like me, this is a very important issue. Perhaps you are lucky in that you have improved insulin sensitivity, but for the rest of the world its changing, especially in the West too as obesity has turned into an 'epidemic.'

    Yes it is possibly to be vegetarian and avoid grains, lentils, and fruit. As an omnivore I love vegetables as much as a vegetarian. My only issue is that a pure vegetable diet lacks nutrient density and complete protein. Sure nuts and seeds contain some protein, but the bio availability is very low. Compare that to animals, which are everywhere. Its the perfect food for humans as they contain all the complete amino acids (protein) for humans, all the nutrients humans will ever need, as well as healthy saturated fats.
     
    #32 Ardhanariswar, May 29, 2012
    Last edited: May 29, 2012
  13. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    Complete protein consists in protein that has the 8 essential aminoacids, all of which can be found in a vegetarian diet through the day, and with certain products like Quinoa and Soy, all in one vegetable.

    Check some posts back and you'll see all the problem that this animals "everywhere" are causing.

    Most of the enviromental problems of today would reduce dramaticlaly if people became vegetarian or at least consumed meat, let's say 1/8 of what they do now.

    Animals are everywhere because we breed them to be. That is going to eventually burn us all to death (quite literaly) unless we stop immidiately.
     
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  14. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    Quinoa is a grain (mostly carbohydrates), and soy isn't available everywhere, especially India. Raw, unprocessed soy contains toxins like phytic acid and phytoestrogens, which disrupt the human endocrine system.

    Environmental reasons are there of course, but you cannot argue against animal eating entirely because factory farming is only part of the meat industry. Pasture raised animals are becoming more popular with those that can afford it, and is actually much better for the local environment.

    Quite literally? :rolleyes:

    Please bow out if you cannot debate intelligently.
     
  15. Me Myself

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    To the veeeeeeeeeeeeeery least, people with enough income would be moraly forced to become vegetarian.

    About those two vegetable sources I was merely citing vegetables that have it all in one. Meeting the 8 aminoacids is generaly done through the day by the intake of different food.

    Ozone.
     
  16. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    About Diabetes, American asociation of Diabetes sees vegetarianism as a good idea:

    Meal Planning for Vegetarian Diets - American Diabetes Association

    extract:

    Is it safe for someone with diabetes to follow a vegetarian diet?
    Yes! A vegetarian diet is a healthy option, even if you have diabetes. Research supports that following this type of diet can help prevent and manage diabetes. In fact, research on vegan diets has found that carb and calorie restrictions were not necessary and still promoted weight loss and lowered participants' A1C.

    Vegan diets are naturally higher in fiber, much lower in saturated fat, and cholesterol-free when compared to a traditional American diet. The high fiber in this diet may help you feel full for a longer time after eating and may help you eat less over all. When fiber intake is greater than 50 grams per day on a vegan diet, it may help lower blood glucose levels.

    This diet also tends to cost less. Meat, poultry, and fish are usually the most expensive foods we eat.
     
  17. ratikala

    ratikala Istha gosthi

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    dear me myself ,



    just to commend you on your inteligent veiw point :D

    and to say that it is very sad to think that we could allso quite happily feed everyone very well , if the greedy would just addopt a simpler diet , as you say cutting down meat consumption would be a rational step for those who cant or wont give it up .

    not only would it feed everyone but it would have less impact on the enviroment .

    it is sad to think that we are so taken in by comercialism that we eat what we are sold , and that the comercial machine has convinced us that we need to eat what they want to sell us ! what they can produce easily and make a high profit from , and has this high dairy and animal diet proved healthy for us ? in my opinion no !!!
     
  18. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    Any diet is better than the standard American diet, including veganism and vegetarianism. Any diet will cut out processed junk food and allow the human body to eat clean natural foods.

    If you read one of my earlier posts, I mentioned why you cannot trust the ADA which is backed by companies in the grain and sugar industries. Of course they would support diets high in grains and sugar (aka Veganism/vegetarianism) rather than diets fairly low in carbohydrates (low-carb, atkins, or even Paleo/Primal).

    Recent scientific studies (such as the ones I posted in my previous post) show that high carbohydrate diets increases an individuals risk for diabetes, obesity, and heart disease. Saturated fats are actually healthy, and there is no evidence to support a link between dietary cholesterol intake and blood cholesterol in any negative way.

    Science trumps government any day. Especially when Congress allows Pizza to be considered a vegetable for school lunches, they really do have our best interests in mind!
     
  19. Satyamavejayanti

    Satyamavejayanti Well-Known Member

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    Ardhanariswar;2943480]

    I think non - veg has always been a Hindu thing.

    How many Hindus follow Manusmriti?

    He who eats the flesh of any (animal) is called the eater of the flesh of that (particular creature), he who eats fish is an eater of every (kind of) flesh; let him therefore avoid fish. [v.5.15.]- Manu

    So according to Manu, we should avoid animal products.

    if anything goes against the dictates of Vedas then it should be questioned and taken for what its worth.

    as for more Authoritative text, none support killing of animals.

    No Beef in Vedas – 20 Min Crash Course

    Vegetarianism and The Vedas
     
  20. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    This is another ADA xD. This is the American Diabetes Association. The other one was American Dietary Association.

    In the webpage and organization ABOUT DIABETES they have specific sections promoting vegetarian diet.

    It makes me think your studies may not be as conclusive as you would think.
     
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