Hindus - to touch or not to touch.

[Vinayaka]

You know me, I really hate to see threads get derailed, and especially beautiful threads like ' Friend from Udaipur' so I'm going to hope a discussion shifts over here.

In some Hindu traditions, regular folk can touch the deities, get closer to shrines do abhishekham, etc. In other Hindu traditions, the deities are out of bounds except for the priests.

As mentioned before. some Hindus remain fairly ethnocentric, insisting their particular version is the correct version. Others ... well, not so much. Then there are people like me who generally follow one tradition, but respect the other. I follow, or try to follow the local custom without judgement.

So for those of you who want to debate this, here's a thread I made just for you. Have at it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

At home or in the temples, we bathe the idol (Abhishekam). So touching is OK. In North-India, people touch the feet of the deity (IMHO, perfectly OK where allowed). Touch has its own magic, whether it is touching the mother, wife, children, or the deity's or guru's feet. There is even touch-healing.

 

[Vinayaka]

At home or in the temples, we bathe the idol (Abhishekam). So touching is OK. In North-India, people touch the feet of the deity (IMHO, perfectly OK where allowed). Touch has its own magic, whether it is touching the mother, wife, children, or the deity's or guru's feet. There is even touch-healing.

I agree, but put stress on 'where allowed' .Even at home, I'm gentle with it. I'm quite sure the anti-touching stuff comes from sanitation, and from transfer of energies, both with deities, and with people. So sensitivity to the particular situation is the key. Some people and some cultures are just more touchy-feely than others.

 

[Jainarayan]

There are special occasions and pujas when the devotees can go into the inner sanctums. Yes plural, as there are 5 so large 3 priests plus the life size murthi fit comfortably inside. Anyway, I honestly don't remember when it was and for what festival, and just what was allowed when in there, as it was during my "sabbatical". The entry into the inner sanctum is allowed only once or twice a year. Apart from that, there is a not so small shrine where devotees can use water, only water, to bathe a lingam and Nandi and take blessing from the water (yes, have done ). The surface of the shrine is porous concrete or stone to help control the water pouring off. It's quite a popular thing to do.

 

[Vinayaka]

There are special occasions and pujas when the devotees can go into the inner sanctums. Yes plural, as there are 5 so large 3 priests plus the life size murthi fit comfortably inside. Anyway, I honestly don't remember when it was and for what festival, and just what was allowed when in there, as it was during my "sabbatical". The entry into the inner sanctum is allowed only once or twice a year. Apart from that, there is a not so small shrine where devotees can use water, only water, to bathe a lingam and Nandi and take blessing from the water (yes, have done ). The surface of the shrine is porous concrete or stone to help control the water pouring off. It's quite a popular thing to do.

Totally depends on the tradition of any particular temple. Smarta temples like the one you are referring to often try to accommodate a bit of both, or all styles. That's more or less a new western thing for accommodating all traditions, and the lack of finances.

In traditional Saiva temples run fairly strictly according to the rules laid out in the Saiva Agamas, this would never happen. However, there is a time when devotees are allowed to touch the statues. It is when the statues are not murthies. At kumbahbhishekams, held every 12 years, the murthies are mystically killed, have the life removed, then transferred into kumbhams, and moved to a temporary yagasala. This allows for cleaning under the statues, retiling, fixing the stones, etc.

There is also a time while the murthies are outside in the kumbhams waiting, when oiling of the deities accurs, and anyone can do that. It's sort of like, "excuse me, but we need to clean this place."

But when that's over, devotees are no longer allowed. Also, because of that, the priests enrich one or more kumbhams with purification water, in an incredibly concentrated ceremony where all the priests sit around one kumbham and charge it with mantras, etc, for at least an hour , maybe 3. Then this heavily purified water is taken around to all the statues in the temple to 'cleanse' them from who-knows what. Only after that are they enlivened again.

So, as far as touch goes, it would be the difference between touching your mate or your friend when they're aware of it, or touching a piece of clothing they usually wear that is hanging in a closet, and they don't know it.

 

[Jainarayan]

Totally depends on the tradition of any particular temple. Smarta temples like the one you are referring to often try to accommodate a bit of both, or all styles. That's more or less a new western thing for accommodating all traditions, and the lack of finances.

Agreed. When I asked one of the ladies where people were from, she said "all over India". The president of the temple is from Chennai, at least one priest is from Tamil Nadu or Karnataka (I forgot which, but he speaks Telugu), and so on.

In this area, as we've discussed before, there are few temples. The ones that do exist are small and quite out of the way. Even the temples in a high concentration area like Jersey City are small, mostly no more than the size of small Baptist churches.

This one is so large, diverse and so well-financed that it is like a massive planetary object that people are gravitationally drawn to. There really are few other temples that can accommodate a population from such diverse areas and traditions in India.

n traditional Saiva temples run fairly strictly according to the rules laid out in the Saiva Agamas, this would never happen. However, there is a time when devotees are allowed to touch the statues. ...

This is why, as beautiful as the temple is, I wish there were smaller ones devoted to one or two deities. In a large sprawling temple it is easy for it to turn into a shopping mall experience.

 

[Vinayaka]

I wish there were smaller ones devoted to one or two deities. In a large sprawling temple it is easy for it to turn into a shopping mall experience.

Every time I go to the one here, (rather often) I just feel so incredibly lucky. Friends who have friends in Toronto, or all know Toronto temples almost always say that this one is better than any of the ones in Toronto, and that's quite the compliment, considering Toronto has upwards of 20 Tamil temples.

A few specifics-
- not as crowded
- less confusing, simpler
- stricter
- stronger energy
- one priest tradition, not multiple

 

[Jainarayan]

I so jealous. :sad4:

I've been to Toronto, beautiful city, but too far north... you know, snow?

 

[Aupmanyav]

[youtube]00yn5Ug4AGI[/youtube]
Shri Rameshwar siddh pith dham chandpol jodhpuripad - YouTube

This is my temple in Jodhpur and these are my people , where Shiva resides with two Parvatis. People are allowed to do 'abhishek' after the morning aarti. Otherwise people do not touch the lingam or the yoni. They touch and press the marble boundary on the three sides as if they are massaging the feet of the deity.

 

[Maya3]

Mine is Smarta and it is pretty easy going, we usually partake in the Pujas. People don´t really go into the sanctums, except the Goddess one that is open.

At the temple at the ashram, there is a small sign outside the door that tells you to not move anything from anywhere, other than that it is a very non traditional temple, not technically only Hindu, it could be anything.

Maya

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

Vanakkam,

I don't really think it is only a matter of tradition or sampraday, there is also regional differences within India to consider.

In the south, for a huge temple or a small shrine, it's never permitted to touch the God. For many, even entering the garbhagriha is not permitted, in some temples devotees pray to the closed garbhagriha and no one else than the pujaris are allowed to see the deity.

But in the north, I've experienced very differently this issue. I was even surprised to see at my local temple, people touching and sometimes hugging the lingam, or giving themselves the offerings instead of giving them to a priest. But I really got used to it.

Many very old or big temples have had a continuous flow and care from the priests for centuries, or because of the elements wich the murti is made, special rituals etc... Some temples have a powerful aura to them, powerful energy. This energy require special care from the priests to be maintained, that is why very specifics rituals at specifics hours are conducted for specifics days, and that is also why priests taking care of these kind of temples have very strict rules of hygiene and sadhana. This old and powerful energy is very delicate to maintain, to handle, and this is why in these temples not anyone can touch the murti.
Why ? I don't think ordinary people "corrupt" or "waste away" the pure energy of these murtis. But surely, those rules of sadhana and basic hygiene are not applied to everyone visiting the temple ! So, the priests and devotees don't want the murti/energy to be "disturbed" by such people that don't take those precautions. In some temples in the south that works like this, you don't even have to have direct visual darshan to feel the energy... You really feel it. In some Ganesha temple, a very simple one, I have almost physically felt the aura of it without even having visual darshan. This is when you know that a temple is exceptionnally well maintained !

So, for those big and old temples I don't mind not touching, I understand.

I'm not against touching however. There are very small temples, even shrines, when touching is allowed and that doesn't mean it's because the murti have no power there. There is transmission both in praying (namaskaram posture) and direct touching. So it is both the same result. Some temples/murtis are just very old, powerful and/or require special care and don't have to be touched by everybody. Other can be touched since there are in a less big temples, or small shrines that hold power but not too much and everyone can handle, I've seen also temples where the murti was powerful, but yet touching was allowed (under supervision of the priest). Taking some vibhuti/kumkum on the figer directly from the murti was even the prasad of this temple. But after closing, the murti was spiritually cleansed of all impurities. So, it's more work for the priests, but it's working.


Ok so my opinion... I've experienced both, and both have their pro and cons. There not really one superior to the other... But I admit, if I am happy with a darshan, I also immensely love to rest my head on the feets of God and feel the flow and the intimacy of this very brief moment between God and devotee. Even if a temple is crowded, even if there is noise all around, just laying your head in total surrender makes everything stop. And that is truly an experience.

I have little story on how I have overcome this "fear to touch" while I was in Mumbai xD

I loved to go to a very small mandir there, in just across the street where I lived. There was a murti of Sri Ganesha, a big Sai Baba, and a big Sri Dattatreya. There was no priest or anything in this temple, and very few devotees also. Really, not much people were coming in the shrine, they prefered to go to the more bigger temple not far away. So I was often alone when coming here. I used to light incense myself, waving it, then relighting the old diyas, putting garlands of flowers directly to the murtis and praying like this. The lack of priests weren't really a problem, since few people were coming, and devotees were very briefs with their prayers. But I used to stay more time, and to offer couloured rice and flowers to the feets of Sri GaneshJi and Sri Datta... But taking care of not touching much.
Then one evening the temple was closed... So I asked the tobacco vendor next to tell me why the temple was closed (it was funny, with my limited Hindi xD) Finally, he just gave me the key of the temple, telling me to go, open it, do my stuff and close it. I was like "did this guy... Really... Gave me the keys to the mandir ?!" xD
Anyway, went there, did my prayers as usual. But then I asked Sri GaneshJi and Sri Datta "I am giving you flowers, rice, scent and light every evening to show you my love, but my heart is still full of love to give to you. These offerings aren't showing my love to you enough !" So I just went "screw this, screw that" and took the feets of Sri Datta in my both hands, went on my knee and rested my forehead on His feets. Then this is where I really felt something new ! And without entering into details, it was truly an incredible experience. Only then, finally, I felt satisfied and empty. I was now truly empty of all the love and reverence I was trying to give, but was unable to give to my fullest. It was really this very moment where I was more than a devotee visiting the temple, it was really THE moment between me and God.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Even touching the steps of the temple and then touching the forehead (traversed by the feet of thousands of devotees - dirty, eh?) imparts its complete effect, as Hindus and sikhs do.