Hindus should restart worshipping Indra

[Jainarayan]

You consider Krishna to be Supreme Brahman !!!...

If you would have said that " to me Vishnu is the Supreme Brahman " then your statement would have carried some weight. But to consider Krishna as Supreme is absurd.

You're not denigrating my beliefs here?

Have you read the Bhagavad Gita? Krishna=Brahman=Vishnu=Brahman=Krishna=Vishnu=
Brahman=Krishna=Vishnu. All one and the same.

"Established in spiritual communion by inhibiting all sensations, concentrating on the heart centre, and drawing up the vital energies to the head, one should meditate on Me along with the utterance of the single-syllabled mantra Om denoting Brahman. Departing from the body in this state, one attains liberation." 8.12-13

"He who, with a mind undistracted by other things, thinks of Me constantly every day - to the Yogi thus ever-attuned, I am easy of attainment, O son of Pritha!" 8.14

No more is re-birth, no more this home of transience and misery, for those great-souled ones who have attained to supreme perfection by realising Me. 8.15

"O mighty conqueror of enemies, there is no end to My divine manifestations. What I have spoken to you is but a mere indication of My infinite opulences." 10.40

Know that all beautiful, glorious, and mighty creations spring from but a spark of My splendor. 10.41

But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe. 10.42

Sanjaya said: O King, speaking thus, the Supreme, the Lord of all mystic power, the Personality of Godhead, displayed His universal form to Arjuna.11.9

Arjuna saw in that universal form unlimited mouths and unlimited eyes. It was all wondrous. The form was decorated with divine, dazzling ornaments and arrayed in many garbs. He was garlanded gloriously, and there were many scents smeared over His body. All was magnificent, all-expanding, unlimited. This was seen by Arjuna. 11.10-11

If hundreds of thousands of suns rose up at once into the sky, they might resemble the effulgence of the Supreme Person in that universal form. 11.12

At that time Arjuna could see in the universal form of the Lord the unlimited expansions of the universe situated in one place although divided into many, many thousands. 11.13

 

[Maya3]

You consider Krishna to be Supreme Brahman !!! Krishna is not a separate or independent God. He his just an incarnation of Vishnu. And that incarnation has ended. Krishna died when a hunter shot an arrow at his feet. So he doesn't exist anymore. Vishnu had incarnated as Krishna for a particular purpose on Earth and once that purpose was served Vishnu ended his incarnation.

If you would have said that " to me Vishnu is the Supreme Brahman " then your statement would have carried some weight. But to consider Krishna as Supreme is absurd.

We make a point of being polite to each other on this forum.

We also respect each others views here and don't call other people's view's absurd.

And as JayaBholenath said, proselytizing is not allowed. We are not here to spread any point of view but to discuss them.

Proselytizing is both against Hindu views and against the rules of conduct on this forum.

Maya

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

Vanakkam,

No need to quote Baghavad Gita, JaiNarayanJi, seems to be a fake heretical post puranic scripture. I guess. There is plenty of Visnu as much as Rudra in Rig Ved, so I don't see the point. Saying that Visnu as supreme is absurd is then saying the same as Indra as supreme is absurd, or Hanuman as supreme is absurd, or Siva as supreme is absurd, etc...

Also, as Maya pointed out, we value being polite to each other as it is actually the first step to a good debate or discussion.

"One should be cautions not to speak anything that hurts others. Such kind of speech never helps but always brings destruction."

"People who are soft spoken and truthful are loved by all"

"One has to be humble if he desires to acquire knowledge"

"A person can achieve anything by being simple and humble"

"Ego is the biggest ennemy of humans"

Just sayin'. Does it ring a bell ?

Aum Namah Shivaya

 

[Ashoka]

No need to quote Baghavad Gita, JaiNarayanJi, seems to be a fake heretical post puranic scripture. I guess.

What's funny is that there's no such thing as heresy in Hinduism xD

 

[Jainarayan]

Vanakkam,

No need to quote Baghavad Gita, JaiNarayanJi, seems to be a fake heretical post puranic scripture. I guess.

I know... what was I thinking!?

There is plenty of Visnu as much as Rudra in Rig Ved, so I don't see the point.

Nintey-three times at last count.

Saying that Visnu as supreme is absurd is then saying the same as Indra as supreme is absurd, or Hanuman as supreme is absurd, or Siva as supreme is absurd, etc...

Also, as Maya pointed out, we value being polite to each other as it is actually the first step to a good debate or discussion.

While I'm sure there has been bloodshed over "my sampradaya can beat up your sampradaya", for 5,000 years I think Hindus have been able to maintain a "worship and let worship" attitude towards each other.

"One should be cautions not to speak anything that hurts others. Such kind of speech never helps but always brings destruction."

"People who are soft spoken and truthful are loved by all"

"One has to be humble if he desires to acquire knowledge"

"A person can achieve anything by being simple and humble"

"Ego is the biggest ennemy of humans"

Just sayin'. Does it ring a bell ?

Aum Namah Shivaya

:yes: I broke my own resolution to not engage him in conversation. It's like eating pistachios... ever known anyone to eat just one and say "no more"?

 

[Jainarayan]

What's funny is that there's no such thing as heresy in Hinduism xD

Unless you're Buddhist. :run:

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

Vanakkam,

I

:yes: I broke my own resolution to not engage him in conversation. It's like eating pistachios... ever known anyone to eat just one and say "no more"?

Jainarayan, the quotes from RigVed part was not intended toward you, more toward OP, don't take any offense ! xD You are perfectly fine

Also no, never known anyone to eat just one and say no more. I am myself the worst exemple of this. I taste one and have to eat the whole package after...I REGRET NOTHING :drool:

Aum Namah Shivaya

 

[Ashoka]

Unless you're Buddhist. :run:

lol! True, but we still love our Nastika friends

 

[Jainarayan]

Vanakkam,



Jainarayan, the quotes from RigVed part was not intended toward you, more toward OP, don't take any offense ! xD You are perfectly fine

Not to worry, I understood perfectly.

 

[Jainarayan]

lol! True, but we still love our Nastika friends

Loving compassion:

Ananda asked: "Would it be true to say that the cultivation of loving kindness and compassion is a part of our practice?"

The Buddha replied: "No. It would not be true to say that the cultivation of loving kindness and compassion is part of our practice. It would be true to say that the cultivation of loving kindness and compassion is all of our practice."

 

[arpankhandelwal]

And one more thing. It seems like you are a devotee of Shiva. But Shiva is not even mentioned in Rigved.

Hello All,

Who know Bhagwan Shiva's informations deeply, they also know that he is also known as "Rudra" and
it is said that Rudra is referred around 75 times in Rig Veda and the earliest mentions of Rudra occur in the Rig Veda,
where four entire hymns viz. 1.43, 1.114, 2.33, 7.46 are devoted to him. Rudra is also referred in Yajur Veda and Atharava Veda too.


The RV 2.33.9 calls Rudra as “īśānādasya bhuvanasya” (The Lord or Sovereign of the Universe) :
ईशानादस्य भुवनस्य भूरेर्न वा उ योषद रुद्रादसुर्यम ||


The RV 6.49.10 calls Rudra as “bhuvanasya pitarah” (The Father of the Universe) :
भुवनस्य पितरं गीर्भिराभी रुद्रं दिवा वर्धया रुद्रमक्तौ |
बर्हन्तं रष्वमजरं सुषुम्नं रधग घुवेम कविनेषितासः ||


RV 1.114 is an appeal to Rudra for mercy, where he is referred to as “mighty Rudra, the god with braided hair” :
इमा रुद्राय तवसे कपर्दिने कषयद्वीराय पर भरामहे मतीः |


Rigveda, I.114.2 :
मर्ळा नो रुद्रोत नो मयस कर्धि
“Be gracious unto us, o Rudra, bring us bliss!”


Rigveda (I.43.5) calls Rudra as :
यः शुक्र इव सूर्यो हिरण्यमिव रोचते |
शरेष्ठो देवानां वसुः ||
“luminous like the Sun, gratifying like gold, best among the Deities”.


Truly there is in this world nothing so purifying as knowledge.- (Bhagvad Gita [4.38])

 

[Viraja]

Indra could be a meritorious deity (as I understand being stated in Rig Veda), maybe capable of bestowing all kinds of material wishes to the devotee. But I do not believe he is a supreme deity, even his vajra is not his own - it was made from sage Dadeechi's selfless immolation of himself and procured from the sage's backbone.

 

[Viraja]

And discounting every counter factor against Indra as incorrect modification of the puranas isn't right either. For example, it is part of Bhagawatam that Sri Krishna stops the Ayarpadi people from praying to Indra and part of the Govardhanagiri episode. And it is part of Sri Vishnu's churning of the milky ocean legend that Indra arrogantly pushed down the garland of mother Lakshmi depleting the wealth in the heavens that milky ocean had to be churned. And the Ahalya story isn't tampering either, that she becomes a stone for 1000 years to be relieved from the curse at the touch of the feet of Sri Rama is part of Ramayana!

 

[Viraja]

Lastly it is up to the readers to want to know more about Indra to the point of wanting to pursue worshiping him. You cannot force someone to quit their present beliefs by offending them and force your notion on them. Calling Shiva as tribal god, and Krishna as 'dead' are not what those of scholarly disposition do, they are uncalled for comments.

 

[Omkara]

I am reading Hindi translation not English one.

Yes Rudra is mentioned in Rigved. It is speculated that Rigvedic Rudra became the Puranic Shiva. But it is just a speculation. Shiva is not directly mentioned in Rigved unlike Indra. Neither is Shiva's weapon Trishul mentioned while Indra's weapon Vajra is mentioned innumerable times.

What I feel is that Shiva is a tribal God who got incorporated in our religion and was equated with Rigvedic Rudra. From his appearance Shiva seems like a tribal God. He has matted hair while no caste or community in our country has matted hair. Almost all Gods in our religion wear a crown but Shiva doesn't wear it. Only tribal people could imagine such an appearance of God.

Rudra means 'He who releases man from the misery of Samsara'. The very meaning of the name suggests that it refers to the Supreme Being.

Rudra IS Shiva. Rudra is referred to as-


****ikaNTha (the fair-throated one): YV saMhitA
nIlagrIva (the blue-throated one): YV saMhitA; AV-P
mIDhuShaH (bountiful): RV saMhitA; YV saMhitA; Apastamba mantra-prashna
vR^iSha (the bull): RV saMhitA
deva (the god): RV saMhitA; AV-vulgate; tANDya brAhmaNa
pinAkin (the holder of the pinAka bow): AV-vul; AV-P; YV saMhitA; AV-parishiShTha
shiva (the auspicious one): RV saMhitA; YV saMhitA; AV-vul; AV-P; shvetAshavatara
girisha (mountain rover): YV; AV-P
hara (destroyer): maitrAyaNIya saMhitA; shvetAshavatara; AshvalAyana gR^ihyasUtra; bodhAyana mantraprashna; ApastaMba mantraprashna
aghora (benign): YV-maitrAyaNIya; mahAnArAyaNa; AV-parishiShTha
ghora (terrible): YV-maitrAyaNIya; mahAnArAyaNa; AV-parishiShTha
ghoratara (most terrible): YV-maitrAyaNIya; mahAnArAyaNa; AV-parishiShTha
virUpa (many formed): YV-saMhita
purahAriN (destroyer of the 3 cities): as in tripurAntaka brAhmaNa, i.e., YV-taittirIya brAhmaNa
aShTasvarUpin (8 formed): The 8 names come in the shUlagava mantra, e.g. Apastamba mantraprashna; kau****akI brAhmaNa; shatapata brAhmaNa
pinAkahasta (holder of the pinAka): YV-saMhitA
kR^ittivAsas (clad in hides): YV-saMhitA
bhUtAnAMpati (lord of the beings): as bhUtapati in AV-Vulgate; AV-P; aitareya-brAhmaNa
muNDa (clean shaven): AV-parishiShTha; as in vyuptakesha in YV-saMhitA
kapardin (with knotted locks): RV-saMhitA; YV-saMhitA; AshvalAyana gR^ihyasUtra; AV-parishiShTha
aja (unborn): shvetAshavatara
harikesha (green/yellow haired): YV-saMhitA
pi~Ngala (tawny): mahAnArAyaNopaniShat; AV-parishiShTha (e.g. uchChuShma and goshAnti)
dakSha-makhaghna (destroyer of dakSha’s ritual): alluded in gopatha-brAhmaNa as destroyer of prajApati’s yAga and AV-parishiShTha in graha-saMgraha
bhaga-netrApahArin (destroyer of bhaga’s eyes): gopatha-brAhmaNa
umApati (husband of umA): mahAnArAyaNopaniShat
bhava (all existence): RV-saMhitA; RV-khila; AV-vul; AV-P; YV saMhitA; Apastamba mantra-prashna; kau****akI brAhmaNa; shatapata brAhmaNa; AV-parishiShTha
kapAlahasta (skull-wielder): as in kapAlin AV-parishiShTha
tryambaka (the three eyed one): RV-saMhitA; YV-saMhitA; YV-brAhmaNa-s; gopatha brAhmaNa; AV-parishiShTha
dhruva (firm): shvetAshavatara
khara-priya/khara-rUpin (with donkeys): equivalent of the gardabhau mentioned in the AV-P
vAmadeva (the beautiful god): mahAnArAyaNopaniShat
mahAdeva (the great god): AV-vul; AV-P; YV saMhitA; kau****akI brAhmaNa; AV-parishiShTha

These are all characteristics of Shiva.

Rudra is explicitly called Shiva in the Rig, Yajur and Atharva Vedas.

stomaM vo adya rudrAya shikvase kShayadvIrAya namasA didiShTana yebhiH shivaH svavAn evayAvabhir divaH siShakti svayashA nikAmabhiH | RV10.92.9

stomaM=a chant (accusative singular); vaH= personal pronoun; adya= today(adverb); rudrAya= rudra (dative singular); shikvase= skilled-one (*ArSha* dative singular); didiShTana= to present; yebhiH= pronoun plural; shivaH= shiva, i.e auspicious (nominative singular) svavAn= good protector (nominative singular) evayAvabhiH=swift-moving (instrumental plural); divaH= sky (ablative singular of dyaus); siShakti= accompanied by; svayashA= evidently famous (nominative singular); nikAmabhiH= eager ones (instrumental plural). dyaus); siShakti= accompanied by; svayashA= evidently famous (nominative singular); nikAmabhiH= eager ones (instrumental plural) singular); nikAmabhiH= eager ones (instrumental plural).

Present your chant today that pays obeisance to the Rudra, the skillful one, the lord of heroes Shiva, the good protector, of great fame, comes from the sky accompanied by those one who are swift and eager

 

[Kalidas]

hhmmmmmm. this is getting crazy. I am curious now. Sir Thunder I worship Maa Kali am I too worshiping a Tribal god? Maybe, but who care? When I pray to her i feel the divine and a great love wash over me. I have been granted a few boons even (such as no cravings of meat as I try and go vegetarian). We have few Shaktas here in this DIR and even less whom worship Kali exclusively (I'm fairly new so I want to keep things simple). The Divine is far more complicated then you or I could ever imagine. To say worshiping the Brahman in this way is false while mine is true, is...(how can I put this nicely?) silly? I have no problems with your worship of Indra actually I don't think any of us do. Yet you seem to have an animosity that none of us do, why? Because your books say he is supreme? I was reading the Upanishads a little bit ago I can not exactly remember where this was (if someone could help me out here it would be awesome)

It talked of two scholars who studied a many good things (the Vedas included) and yet they still did not know Brahman. Books will not lead us to the divine, I can't be sure for 100% what will (I can guess feeling the divine has a big part in it) but I know placing all your faith in texts alone is of little help. So please Continue to worship Indra and may he lead you to happiness and what ever else you wish, we will continue with out worship of "false puranic Gods because they work for us.

 

[ThunderRD]

You're not denigrating my beliefs here?

Have you read the Bhagavad Gita? Krishna=Brahman=Vishnu=Brahman=Krishna=Vishnu=
Brahman=Krishna=Vishnu. All one and the same.

"Established in spiritual communion by inhibiting all sensations, concentrating on the heart centre, and drawing up the vital energies to the head, one should meditate on Me along with the utterance of the single-syllabled mantra Om denoting Brahman. Departing from the body in this state, one attains liberation." 8.12-13

"He who, with a mind undistracted by other things, thinks of Me constantly every day - to the Yogi thus ever-attuned, I am easy of attainment, O son of Pritha!" 8.14

No more is re-birth, no more this home of transience and misery, for those great-souled ones who have attained to supreme perfection by realising Me. 8.15

"O mighty conqueror of enemies, there is no end to My divine manifestations. What I have spoken to you is but a mere indication of My infinite opulences." 10.40

Know that all beautiful, glorious, and mighty creations spring from but a spark of My splendor. 10.41

But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe. 10.42

Sanjaya said: O King, speaking thus, the Supreme, the Lord of all mystic power, the Personality of Godhead, displayed His universal form to Arjuna.11.9

Arjuna saw in that universal form unlimited mouths and unlimited eyes. It was all wondrous. The form was decorated with divine, dazzling ornaments and arrayed in many garbs. He was garlanded gloriously, and there were many scents smeared over His body. All was magnificent, all-expanding, unlimited. This was seen by Arjuna. 11.10-11

If hundreds of thousands of suns rose up at once into the sky, they might resemble the effulgence of the Supreme Person in that universal form. 11.12

At that time Arjuna could see in the universal form of the Lord the unlimited expansions of the universe situated in one place although divided into many, many thousands. 11.13

Since according to you Krishna is Supreme let me give you a few examples of verses from Bhagvad Gita. In the 10th chapter(Adhyay) of Gita, Krishna describes himself to Arjun as who He is among a group of things. Like among rivers I am Ganga, among seasons I am spring etc.

In 22nd verse of 10th chapter Krishna says : Among Gods I am Indra.

Krishna could have easily said that among Gods I am Vishnu or Shiva. But He says I am Indra.

In 23rd verse of 10th chapter Krishna says : Among mountains I am Meru.

And Meru is the mountain on the peak of which there Swarga in which Indra rules. It is worth noting here that Krishna does not say that among mountains I am Kailash.

In 27th verse of 10th chapter Krishna says : Among horses I am Ucchaishva and among elephants I am Airavat.

Ucchaishva is the horse and Airavat is the elephant which Indra rides.

In 28th verse of 10th chapter Krishna says : Among weapons I am Vajra.

Krishna could have easily said that among weapons I am Vishnu's Sudershan chakra or Shiva's Trishul. But he sticks to Indra's Vajra.

From these verses it is clear that Indra is Supreme than Vishnu or Shiva, in fact the most Supreme God of our religion.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Since according to you Krishna is Supreme let me give you a few examples of verses from Bhagvad Gita. In the 10th chapter(Adhyay) of Gita, Krishna describes himself to Arjun as who He is among a group of things. Like among rivers I am Ganga, among seasons I am spring etc.

In 22nd verse of 10th chapter Krishna says : Among Gods I am Indra.

Krishna could have easily said that among Gods I am Vishnu or Shiva. But He says I am Indra.

In 23rd verse of 10th chapter Krishna says : Among mountains I am Meru.

And Meru is the mountain on the peak of which there Swarga in which Indra rules. It is worth noting here that Krishna does not say that among mountains I am Kailash.

In 27th verse of 10th chapter Krishna says : Among horses I am Ucchaishva and among elephants I am Airavat.

Ucchaishva is the horse and Airavat is the elephant which Indra rides.

In 28th verse of 10th chapter Krishna says : Among weapons I am Vajra.

Krishna could have easily said that among weapons I am Vishnu's Sudershan chakra or Shiva's Trishul. But he sticks to Indra's Vajra.

From these verses it is clear that Indra is Supreme than Vishnu or Shiva, in fact the most Supreme God of our religion.

How does Indra mean God?

 

[Kalidas]

Since according to you Krishna is Supreme let me give you a few examples of verses from Bhagvad Gita. In the 10th chapter(Adhyay) of Gita, Krishna describes himself to Arjun as who He is among a group of things. Like among rivers I am Ganga, among seasons I am spring etc.

In 22nd verse of 10th chapter Krishna says : Among Gods I am Indra.

Krishna could have easily said that among Gods I am Vishnu or Shiva. But He says I am Indra.

In 23rd verse of 10th chapter Krishna says : Among mountains I am Meru.

And Meru is the mountain on the peak of which there Swarga in which Indra rules. It is worth noting here that Krishna does not say that among mountains I am Kailash.

In 27th verse of 10th chapter Krishna says : Among horses I am Ucchaishva and among elephants I am Airavat.

Ucchaishva is the horse and Airavat is the elephant which Indra rides.

In 28th verse of 10th chapter Krishna says : Among weapons I am Vajra.

Krishna could have easily said that among weapons I am Vishnu's Sudershan chakra or Shiva's Trishul. But he sticks to Indra's Vajra.

From these verses it is clear that Indra is Supreme than Vishnu or Shiva, in fact the most Supreme God of our religion.

why do you let it bother you which deities people choose to worship? Are you in fact the purest essence of the Divine itself come here to enlighten us petty peasants? If not then you are as us...mortals. All these names Kali, Indra, Siva, Vishnu, Krishna, Rudra...etc are just that names. There is ONE divine and I seriously doubt this divine worries itself with the petty squabbles of names. I personally worship Kali Maa because she represents all the attribute of the divine to me in a nice neat package, yet I do have no illusions as to whom I truly worship. All prayers to Kali end at the ear of the divine, all good deeds I do in Kali's name land at the divines feet, and all my devotion to Kali leads me into the divines arms. So who are you kind sir to say what the divine is and is not, is that not for the divine to decide?

 

[Jainarayan]

From these verses it is clear that Indra is Supreme than Vishnu or Shiva, in fact the most Supreme God of our religion.

Fine, whatever. It's pointless discussing with you because you are closed-minded and refuse to accept others' beliefs. Very un-Hindu of you.

Shubhamastu.