[Hindus Only] Question for Hindus

[निताइ dasa]

And I do not blame him. As Hare-Krishna founder, it is natural that he will have a bias towards Lord Chaitanya just like you and Ratiben have.

We all have a bias towards one school or another Aupmanyavji,even you. Therefore I also do not blame you. But I hope that through this debate you have a deeper understanding of our philosophy, and how we view Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. You can view Lord Gauranga as a devotee, that is fine. Just please don't say insulting things like "He was a fake". Nitai Gaur Premanande Hari Haribol! Please see below for the beautiful handwriting of Gadadhara Pandit. The smaller commentary on the top and bottom is the writing of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu Himself.

Who wrote the verse? Sri Rupa Goswami or Sri Krishna Dasa Kaviraj?

Haribol, they didn't write the verse, they quoted it in their commentaries.

 

[Chakra]

ADDRESSED TO CHAKRA
--------------------------------------
bhagavata ? my f**t...I think you are probably hurt for my ignoring of your posted radha verse attributed to Vedanta deskika.
First I would like to start with, have you read my earlier post ?

1. How many of you heard of the FAKE ChandiDAS, who went around singing the songs of the FAKE and back dated Jayadeva who wrote Gita Govinda, which describes the love affair of Lord Krishna with his mistress the FAKE Radha?
2. Nobody in India heard of Gita Govinda and poet Jayadeva , till an Englishman and R stooge SIR William Jones translatedit in 1792..
3. Sir William Jones was used by Rothschild to create the theory of the Aryan invasion of India
4. And later Rothschild used our Lok Manya Bal Ganghadara Tilak to write a book ARCTIC HOME OF THE VEDAS, where a respected Indian ( Chitpavan Jew) told Indians that the priceless Vedas is indeed written by the white man .
5. The Gita Govinda consist of twelve chapter, further divided into twenty-four songs. Each song consists of eight couplets, it is called Ashtapadi. Chapter one and chapter two, four five and twelve contain two ashtapadi each; chapters three, six, eight, nine and ten contain only one ashtapadi each
6. In the fourth song, of Gita Govinda , the FAKE back dated Jaydeva the poet describes “ the delightful dance of love of Krishna with all gopis in the dark forest of Vrindavana. All the gopis surround him, embracing him with joy and caress him passionately and he praises them hugging one, kissing another passionately, glancing at another and smiling with other maiden in love”.
7. Sri Jayadeva introduced the cult of Radha and Krishna through his Gitagovinda . In Gitagovinda Krishna tells Radha that formerly she as Laxmi chose Him as her consort on the sea shore on the occasion of Samudra Manthana.
8. Chaitanya whom ISKON propagates is Lord Krishna and the FAKE Radha , rolled into one

2nd, there are ZERO mentions of a character Radha in any of the poorva vaishnava acharyas. You quoted a feeble ONE from vedanta desika works, I cannot comment on it until and unless you dissect the verse and post word by word meaning, I cannot depend on an internet translation, get an authentic commentary of that work by any poorva acharya and post it, till then we have to park this item. Don't get offended, I have nothing against you but you have not contributed or involved in the discussion much of value in this thread, so you may not have read all the posts to see why I was calling radha or chaitanya as fake injections.

It takes a lot to hurt my feelings, so I'm definitely not hurt that you missed my respose. You should know that I don't object to your arguments. I don't believe Chaitanya was the incarnation of Krishna, nor do I believe in a lot of things Gaudiyas accept as siddhanta (Krishna is greater than Vishnu, they are an "extension" of Madhva's sampradaya). My objection was your tone, which was quite confrontation in a non-debate sub-forum. As your fellow bhagavata, I suggest you adopt a friendlier tone, which will encourage discussion and learning. Believe me, I would say the same to ratikala or Nitai Dasa if they had a rude tone...but they don't. Even in the face of insults and accusation, they have been posting with nothing but respect.

And I am aware of all the arguments against Chaitanya and Gaudiya Vaishnavism, as I was a Gaudiya Vaishnava before (or partly influenced by it). Some of them did indeed convince me to abandone GV (no offense ratikala and Nitai Dasa!). I am not stopping you from arguing against GV (that'd be hypocritical of me), but I do advise you to either create a new thread in the Same Faiths sub-forum or drop the antagonistic approach. This is not how we have discussions with Vaishnavas.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Add to Chakra's post - and have some humor.
I hope some day Gandhi, Nehru, Indira, Rajiv and Modi will also find mention in Pratisargaparvan, if not Rahul, Lalu Prasad Yadav, Mamta Bannerji and Susri Jayalalitha.

No, Nitai Dasa ji. Lord Chaitanya was not a fake. He was an Acharya who gave us 'Achintya Bhedabheda Advaita' philosophy which is a glorious addition to Hinduism. I be damned if I say anything against it. Yes, Bangla is a beautiful language with a beautiful script. Bangla is my 'mashi-maa".

 

[निताइ dasa]

Yes, Bangla is a beautiful language with a beautiful script. Bangla is my 'mashi-maa

Hari Hari, yes I am slowly trying to learn it and write it (I know Devanagari Hindi, but Bangla script is really confusing to me, so it is taking me long time ahahha, too many curls). I want to read Nityananda Charitamrta in its original Bangla script (as there are only English translation available); so that is my current goal. Hopefully with your blessing my progress can speed up /\ .

 

[Aupmanyav]

Looking at your devotion to the subject, I have no doubt that it will not take long before you are able to master Bangla script. It is the curves which make it beautiful, like that of the hair of Srimati Radharani. Even Lord Krishna got lost in them.

विचलदलकललिताननचन्द्रा।
तदधरपानरभसकृततन्द्रा॥३॥
कापि मधुरिपुणा विलसति युवतिरत्यधिकगुणा॥

"Vichala dala kala lalitānana chandrā l
tadhara pānah abhāsa krita tandrā ll 3 ll
kā api madhu ripunā vilasiti yuvatih ati adhika gunā ll"

With curly hair floating on her moon-like face and indolence induced by Krishna drinking at her lips,
Some other young girl with more merit revels with Krishna, the enemy of Madhu.
http://prramamurthy1931.blogspot.in/2012/04/gita-govindam-chapter-7.html

 

[kalyan]

And I am aware of all the arguments against Chaitanya and Gaudiya Vaishnavism, as I was a Gaudiya Vaishnava before (or partly influenced by it). Some of them did indeed convince me to abandone GV (no offense ratikala and Nitai Dasa!)

Come on we like ideas..throw us some....if u got benefited may be ratikala would also be benfefited perhaps? ....u would have listened to many arguments but i am saying chaitanya is fake.
1. Did he break madhva and on what grounds did he break madhva and on what basis he established this gaudiya mutt
2. He worshiped a character which has no basis radha
3. Is jayadev acceptted by gaudiyas? A kid could call the bluff that british did this creation.
4. Why chaitanya is so much mentioned in fake upanishads and british injected purana likr bhavishya purana where they tried to establish him the same way they did for yesus..Why go into so much trouble ? These are only starters i can think of much to believe he is fake back dated creation of evil british

5th i take it now that this vandalizing of bhagawatm posts be stopped as i have posted correct meaning of the verse

 

[Chakra]

Come on we like ideas..throw us some....if u got benefited may be ratikala would also be benfefited perhaps? ....u would have listened to many arguments but i am saying chaitanya is fake.
1. Did he break madhva and on what grounds did he break madhva and on what basis he established this gaudiya mutt
2. He worshiped a character which has no basis radha
3. Is jayadev acceptted by gaudiyas? A kid could call the bluff that british did this creation.
4. Why chaitanya is so much mentioned in fake upanishads and british injected purana likr bhavishya purana where they tried to establish him the same way they did for yesus..Why go into so much trouble ? These are only starters i can think of much to believe he is fake back dated creation of evil british

5th i take it now that this vandalizing of bhagawatm posts be stopped as i have posted correct meaning of the verse

Right, you have all right to ask the Gaudiyas these questions. I just want you to ask in a polite manner.
Instead of saying, for example, "Chaitanya is fake", you should say "Chaitanya is not the incarnation of Krishna".

 

[atanu]

This thread may kindly be moved to some debate forum.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

We all have a bias towards one school or another Aupmanyavji,even you.

Do you agree then, that if you were not a Gaudiya Vaishnava and if you were to be presented with the claim of Avatarhood, you would reject if for lack of evidence and consistency?

 

[shivsomashekhar]

This thread may kindly be moved to some debate forum.

Atanu,

It is my understanding that there is no active moderator for these forums. Because, there have a been a number of posts with inappropriate tone and language in the past few weeks and none of them have been filtered.

I could be wrong.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

Add to Chakra's post - and have some humor.
I hope some day Gandhi, Nehru, Indira, Rajiv and Modi will also find mention in Pratisargaparvan, if not Rahul, Lalu Prasad Yadav, Mamta Bannerji and Susri Jayalalitha.

This is exactly what was happening with the Bhavishya Purana. Celebrities (kings and religious people ) were constantly added to the Purana - but made to sound as if their arrival was predicted thousands of years ago!

Chaitanya, Nimbarka, East India company, Queen Victoria were all promptly added to this Purana as the main region of this interpolation was the Bengal area. Interpolation was easy as the Purana existed in manuscript form.

In 1865, it was first printed and that put an end to the fabrication. And this is also why you will not find any prophecies of celebrities who became famous after 1865 .

Else, everyone from Gandhi to Amitabh Bachchan to Arvind Kejriwal would have found a place in the BP.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Do you agree then, that if you were not a Gaudiya Vaishnava and if you were to be presented with the claim of Avatarhood, you would reject if for lack of evidence and consistency

Hmm maybe maybe. I mean, obviously the evidence for Lord Chaitanya has appealed to me and therefore I accept Him as an avatar. Furthermore my experiences in bhakti have also reinforced my faith in Him. My main source of belief for Lord Chaitanya is not actually scripture (that is secondary, and I do admit, even from my position Lord Chaitanya's appearance is kept very hidden/vague in scripture, so I can see why others may have difficulty in accepting, and that is why I never want to force them to accept). However my primary reason is the words of the Mahajanas, and countless acharayas who attest to His divinity. I defer to and trust their judgement. However I do not do this under blind faith. Everything that I have learned from my Gurudeva and Acharyas agrees with my experience and is rational to me. I mean even in Gaudiya theology, to ascribe divinity to someone not deserving it, is something that completely contradicts our siddhanta (a jiva is always Krsna das, never Krsna Himself; I mean we are a Vaishnav school), so I don't believe that our previous acharayas would make such a bold statement (that Chaitanya is God) without some spiritual spiritual backing at least.

For me Gaudiya Vaishnavism is both a beautiful philosophy that reconciles the contradictions of the world and also a wonderful practice (I mean you simply chant Harinam, Dance and Sing, eat nice Prasada, and have awesome interactions with other humble Vaishnavs ). Anyway I think I may be ranting, but these are my humble thoughts on this ahhaa. I don't want to fight or argue with anyone here on this forum that was never the intent of my heart (if some people think that I am some aggressive apologist coming here to convert, I am sorry). .But I also feel like if we are being attacked then I must defend, or other people may walk all over us, and diminish whatever our acharayas have realised. It seems like since I have come here, I have spent all my time defending the apparent flaws in our philosophy, that I haven't been abIe to share the good parts of it. I mean though we may differ greatly, we also have so so much in common, like our great Hindu tradition and its principles of Dharma, Ahimsa, Humility, Respect for all life and other spiritual paths, and I think we can take great joy in that. I have studied all major religions, and it is only Hinduism I believe that is so consistent and rational in its worldview. So I guess we can take pride in that. Jaya Sanatana Dharma!

Ultimately If people want to find out if Lord Gaur Nitai are God, then I guess they will have to take that leap of faith and learn about them and decide then. They will have to take a sort of Pascals Wager on this I guess... I just want to present that option for them. I pray to Lord Nityananda Prabhu, to bless all of you here.

your servant,
Nitai das

 

[Aupmanyav]

Else, everyone from Gandhi to Amitabh Bachchan to Arvind Kejriwal would have found a place in the BP.

Bhavishya Purana was never meant to be a final document. Perhaps, it should never have been printed.
(But mind you, some of the verses are extremely old, that cannot be denied)

"According to Maurice Winternitz, the text which has come down to us in manuscript under this title is certainly not the ancient work which is quoted in the Āpastambīya Dharmasūtra. A quotation appearing in the Āpastambīya Dharmasūtra attributed to the Bhaviṣyat Purāṇa cannot be found in the extant text of the Purana." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhavishya_Purana#Dating_and_texts

.. or other people may walk all over us, and diminish whatever our acharayas have realised. ..
Ultimately If people want to find out if Lord Gaur Nitai are God, then I guess they will have to take that leap of faith ..

Not me trying to diminish what the acharyas said, it is a philosophy of love and love only. As for the leap of faith .. I think I have taken a greater leap, the leap of reality, beyond the leap of relativity.
Jai Sanatan Dharma, Jai Hindu Dharma.

 

[kalyan]

I have studied all major religions, and it is only Hinduism I believe that is so consistent and rational in its worldview

You are not indian?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Perhaps yes. How does that matter?

 

[kalyan]

I want to make 1 thing clear to everyone...

1. The main problem I have is this thing bypasses vedic texts and therefore is not considered vedic by any school of thought. The schools that do not accept vedas(not god) are considered nAstika schools..This is the beauty here, you need not accept god but if you accept veda, then you are astika.

You say Krushna is highest and then go to invalidate his teachings in BG ( TasmAt shastram pramanam the) Your acharya vaNi is only pramanic up until it does not cross word of vedam and then only acharya lineage becomes valid. You say bhagavatham is our vedam and so on, it just goes against Sri Krushna teachings.

I think this is a bigger cult than swaminarayan or shirdi sai baba and should be cut down at right time.

Instead of saying, for example, "Chaitanya is fake",

Poor comprehension skills perhaps ? Fake as in I was invalidating the character .

I worship my acharya (although not with constant nista) as greater than rAmAnuja and as Srimannarayana himself, sometimes greater than Sri Krushna himself, I dont care if Sri Krushna takes me or not (sorry Krushna) but I always want to never lose my acharya sambandham even after the death of physical body. I pray to Krushna to only increase my acharya nista(listen...)..This is not uncommon in our Sampradayam, madurakavi alwar had this kind of nista to nammalwar and we see this nista among many sishyas of rAmanuja and also manavala mamunigal has this nista to rAmanuja....This is called charama parva nista in Srivaishnava sampradayam as described by pillai lokacharya swamy and is absolutely necessary(but needs to be there for vaidika acharya who r walking vedam)

 

[kalyan]

Perhaps yes. How does that matter?

This sub forum needs more indian blood which it is seriously lacking...We see more Westerners(nothing against them) posting in topics ranging advaita to dvaita to v.av..even ratikala mentioned she is poor britisher understandable from her spelling mistakes..Seriously though where are all the indians posting ?
I see only u, chakra and tattvaprah(who posts 1ce in a month) and these are regular indian posters, its about time someone comes up with good forum with less moderation and more indian posters for us vedantins

 

[Chakra]

Poor comprehension skills perhaps ? Fake as in I was invalidating the character .

No, I know that you didn't mean fake as in "Chaitanya never existed". "Fake" has a negative connotation and should be avoided when having a discussion with Vaishnavas in a non-debate DIR...which is basically my point. It seems you don't care for my advice, so I will not say anything more.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ratiben is a realized soul. I am a full-fledged 'nationalist' orthodox Hindu. How do we force Indian Hindus to participate in the forum? People come and unfortunately go away. Jaskaran, Poeticus. Hope they return. Vinayaka, hope he will come back soon. Kalicharan, NoBodyYouKnow. They were the strengths of this forum. But we carry on.

 

[kalyan]

Ratiben is a realized soul. I am a full-fledged 'nationalist' orthodox Hindu. How do we force Indian Hindus to participate in the forum? People come and unfortunately go away. Jaskaran, Poeticus. Hope they return. Vinayaka, hope he will come back soon. Kalicharan, NoBodyYouKnow. They were the strengths of this forum. But we carry on.

Hmmm makes sense....but where are they posting is I am unable to figure out, I dont want to discuss other forums mentioning name but there is no such active hindu forum I see....google groups are there but i have never got through them on how to use.