Hinduism and Christianity

[Dawnofhope]

Hindus don't proselytize. We respect the beliefs of others enough to leave them alone. The two paradigms are just so very far apart, not just in philosophy, but in action. In many ways all of India is like the Sentilenese, we just want to be left alone. I wish people would respect that, but I guess it's just to much to ask.

Some Hindus do proselytize and are just as evangelical about their faith as some Christians, ISKCON for example. Other Hindus while not actively promoting their own religion will actively denigrate the faith of others. In some Hindu circles, if a family member converts to another religion, they will be shunned by their Hindu family.

OTOH, there is much to be admired about Hinduism and the Indian people generally. There is a genuine spirituality that is apparent to any true lover of peoples.

We're all different. Some of us are interested in interfaith discussions and some have no interest whatsoever. I'm good with that. If a Christian comes knocking on your door you are free to ask them to leave.

 

[Vinayaka]

Some Hindus do proselytize and are just as evangelical about their faith as some Christians, ISKCON for example. Other Hindus while not actively promoting their own religion will actively denigrate the faith of others. In some Hindu circles, if a family member converts to another religion, they will be shunned by their Hindu family.

OTOH, there is much to be admired about Hinduism and the Indian people generally. There is a genuine spirituality that is apparent to any true lover of peoples.

We're all different. Some of us are interested in interfaith discussions and some have no interest whatsoever. I'm good with that. If a Christian comes knocking on your door you are free to ask them to leave.

I'm against ISKCON for that reason too. At one time they were quite deceptive, pretending to be something they weren't and all that. I have personal stories. Any group of any faith who views theirs as superiour, and wants to convert people, or belittle other faiths, I'm against. That's the part I'm against, not the personal philosophy. So the problems arise when said belief tells them to go preach. Everyone has the right to believe whatever they want. We can privately disagree with their philosophy, but to put it out there in public is just rude. By proselytizing, that's what you're doing.

In the end, it's action, and proselytizing is action.

I have not once started an anti-Baha'i thread on here, nor would I. It's against the rules, and just plain rude. But I admit to agreeing with alternative POV's on a lot of things, because they made sense to me.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm against ISKCON for that reason too. At one time they were quite deceptive, pretending to be something they weren't and all that. I have personal stories. Any group of any faith who views theirs as superiour, and wants to convert people, or belittle other faiths, I'm against. That's the part I'm against, not the personal philosophy. So the problems arise when said belief tells them to go preach. Everyone has the right to believe whatever they want. We can privately disagree with their philosophy, but to put it out there in public is just rude. By proselytizing, that's what you're doing.

In the end, it's action, and proselytizing is action.

I have not once started an anti-Baha'i thread on here, nor would I. It's against the rules, and just plain rude. But I admit to agreeing with alternative POV's on a lot of things, because they made sense to me.

You may not have started any anti-Baha'i threads but you have certainly been a very active participant in them all supporting the anti-Baha'i sentiment. That of course is entirely your right to believe what you want and publicly criticise another religion and their followers. Actions really do speak louder than words.

I'm sorry if you see this as an anti-Hinduism thread. It certainly isn't my intent. Nor am I proselytizing as there is no agenda to convert anyone here to my religion. Most of my threads are about other religions, not the Baha'i Faith. I'm genuinely interested in Hinduism as with Buddhism, Islam, Christianity and Judaism. I enjoy talking to adherents of all these faiths.

 

[SomeRandom]

Oh....... like playing 'snakes and ladders', or cards? Just for fun and no real resulting issues ?

Fair enough...... post away, or read away.....

Exactly. Tis all fun and games.

 

[SomeRandom]

Some Hindus do proselytize and are just as evangelical about their faith as some Christians, ISKCON for example. Other Hindus while not actively promoting their own religion will actively denigrate the faith of others. In some Hindu circles, if a family member converts to another religion, they will be shunned by their Hindu family.

OTOH, there is much to be admired about Hinduism and the Indian people generally. There is a genuine spirituality that is apparent to any true lover of peoples.

We're all different. Some of us are interested in interfaith discussions and some have no interest whatsoever. I'm good with that. If a Christian comes knocking on your door you are free to ask them to leave.

You know, many Hindus regard ISKCON as akin to cult like. I mean I don't personally know anyone who would actively bar them from attending religious ceremonies or shun them or whatever. But even my ma's Sai Baba group (universalist Hindus) give them a "wtf" sideways glance from time to time.

I've never known anyone to be shunned for "converting" since conversion is a meaningless word in Hinduism. It doesn't exist. There is sometimes disappointment or resentment towards those who "stole their kids from their heritage." A lot of prostelysing practices were and are underhanded and quite frankly disgusting. The only reason my aunts and uncles are somewhat Catholic is because my Grandfather was given an ultimatum. Have educated baptised kids or uneducated poverty stricken kids (we're talking Fiji in the 30/40s, not like here where you can still find work without formal education.)
So there is this begrudging resentment left over. They essentially blackmailed my family to convert. Can you understand the hurt that caused people like my grandfather who had to choose between his own sense of duty and honour and giving his kids the best start in life?
I mean I grumble but they've forgiven, so I must too. But the sense of betrayal still lingers.

As for telling door knocking Christians to go away, even politely, goes against a lot of the intrinsic hospitality. To do that is to potentially tell a disguised God testing you to F off. I mean dilemmas.

 

[Vinayaka]

You may not have started any anti-Baha'i threads but you have certainly been a very active participant in them all supporting the anti-Baha'i sentiment.

You see it as anti-Baha'i, whereas I see it as exploring all angles, or to quote Baha'i, investigating truth. I'm glad for alternative viewpoints. I certainly didn't agree with them all. But just because somebody doesn't agree doesn't mean it's anti. Am I anti- orange juice, because i prefer apple juice?

But I do know the sentiment. Fundamentalist Christians have told me I hate them, just for not being a Christian. It's a false jump in logic. I don't consider you anti-Hindu at all.

Edited ... it often seems to me that some Baha'i think if you're not Baha'i, then you're anti-Baha'i. Nothing could be further from the truth. I read both the ex-Baha'i reddit, and the Baha'i reddit. Same for ex-Baha'i. Just because an individual drops out doesn't mean they hate it. There are lots of valid reasons.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I am curious as to why we haven't heard from any Christians on here though. This thread is supposedly about Christianity AND Hinduism.

Only they would know.

But thats Ok, as you know we can share the Message of Christ with those that ask.

Also because of your input, we can also offer to all how diverse Hinduism is.

Its all good and as you said, forcing beliefs is not beneficial for any person.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

You know, many Hindus regard ISKCON as akin to cult like. I mean I don't personally know anyone who would actively bar them from attending religious ceremonies or shun them or whatever. But even my ma's Sai Baba group (universalist Hindus) give them a "wtf" sideways glance from time to time.

Donning robes and chanting Hare Krishna has never appealed to me, nor has Sai Baba. However, I have no problem talking to members of these groups and have never felt pressured.

There appears to be extreme sensitivity about interfaith discussions amongst some Hindus. I have just been accused of proselytizing for stating this thread lol.

I've never known anyone to be shunned for "converting" since conversion is a meaningless word in Hinduism. It doesn't exist. There is sometimes disappointment or resentment towards those who "stole their kids from their heritage." A lot of prostelysing practices were and are underhanded and quite frankly disgusting. The only reason my aunts and uncles are somewhat Catholic is because my Grandfather was given an ultimatum. Have educated baptised kids or uneducated poverty stricken kids (we're talking Fiji in the 30/40s, not like here where you can still find work without formal education.)

Christians are not the only group that exhibit coercive behaviour.

In Bastar village, conversions widen Hindu-Christian divide

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/29/india-mass-reconversion-christians-Hinduism

I lived in Fiji for 3 months so can appreciate the dire poverty that would lead some to be enticed into Christianity. I agree its unethical though it was over 80 years ago.

So there is this begrudging resentment left over. They essentially blackmailed my family to convert. Can you understand the hurt that caused people like my grandfather who had to choose between his own sense of duty and honour and giving his kids the best start in life?
I mean I grumble but they've forgiven, so I must too. But the sense of betrayal still lingers.

To be honest, I would be asking why Hindu communities were and still are lagging so far behind when it comes to socioeconomic development. I would also convert to either Christianity or Hinduism in the blink of an eye if one offered education and the other didn't. Then again, they are both valid spiritual paths to me.

As for telling door knocking Christians to go away, even politely, goes against a lot of the intrinsic hospitality. To do that is to potentially tell a disguised God testing you to F off. I mean dilemmas.

It is a dilemma. Maybe the guy who is there to tell you about Jesus is just as much an angel at your table as one who would tell you of Brahman, Vishnu or Shiva. I always politely engage missionaries who knock at my door and never turn them away.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You see it as anti-Baha'i, whereas I see it as exploring all angles, or to quote Baha'i, investigating truth. I'm glad for alternative viewpoints. I certainly didn't agree with them all. But just because somebody doesn't agree doesn't mean it's anti. Am I anti- orange juice, because i prefer apple juice?

I have no doubt about the anti-Baha'i intent of an Iranian Shi'a Muslim who started 8 anti-Baha'i threads within the last month.

But I do know the sentiment. Fundamentalist Christians have told me I hate them, just for not being a Christian. It's a false jump in logic. I don't consider you anti-Hindu at all.

Yet the Baha'is have never said that you should change your religion and become a Baha'i. Why would we?

Edited ... it often seems to me that some Baha'i think if you're not Baha'i, then you're anti-Baha'i. Nothing could be further from the truth. I read both the ex-Baha'i reddit, and the Baha'i reddit. Same for ex-Baha'i. Just because an individual drops out doesn't mean they hate it. There are lots of valid reasons.

People should be free to join and leave a faith if they wish without coercion or manipulation, including Hinduism, Islam, Christianity and the Baha'i Faith. There is no problem with one who leaves my religion. That's an entirely different proposition from one who has an aversion to the religion of another and actively opposes it. Regardless the attitude should always be respect, courtesy and friendliness.

 

[SomeRandom]

Donning robes and chanting Hare Krishna has never appealed to me, nor has Sai Baba. However, I have no problem talking to members of these groups and have never felt pressured.
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My Aunty is a Hare Krishna. She attends our temple. Good cook and very enthusiastic about anything Krishna orientated. But eh???
I don't care either way. I'm just saying, I've noticed that ISKCON is seen as a little.....extreme by some.

There appears to be extreme sensitivity about interfaith discussions amongst some Hindus. I have just been accused of proselytizing for stating this thread lol.
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Maybe that has to do with the over 100 years of sneaky underhanded proselytizing techniques often disguised as mere friendly dialogue? You appear surprised at the hangover, I'm shocked someone is actually more aloof than I am. It ain't rocket science.

Christians are not the only group that exhibit coercive behaviour.

In Bastar village, conversions widen Hindu-Christian divide

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/29/india-mass-reconversion-christians-Hinduism

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You linked specific instances of retaliation, not people delivering the "message" through the sword like Christians or even Muslims. I'm sure there are instances of course. So try comparing apples to apples next time. You push people eventually they will push back, using the very tactics used against them, so it would appear.
This is what religion causes. War and divides and unnecessary harm. I'm beginning to feel like just abandoning the lot of it, so they can sort it out for themselves.

I lived in Fiji for 3 months so can appreciate the dire poverty that would lead some to be enticed into Christianity. I agree its unethical though it was over 80 years ago.

Like I said, the past haunts us all. But you gotta let it go, all the same.

To be honest, I would be asking why Hindu communities were and still are lagging so far behind when it comes to socioeconomic development. I would also convert to either Christianity or Hinduism in the blink of an eye if one offered education and the other didn't. Then again, they are both valid spiritual paths to me.
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I am not walking into that minefield of international politics and hundreds of generations of slights.

Ask a sociopolitical expert.

It is a dilemma. Maybe the guy who is there to tell you about Jesus is just as much an angel at your table as one who would tell you of Brahman, Vishnu or Shiva. I always politely engage missionaries who knock at my door and never turn them away.

I don't think we have concepts of angels. But for all I know, it could be Loki having a laugh. I dunno.

 

[Vinayaka]

I have no doubt about the anti-Baha'i intent of an Iranian Shi'a Muslim who started 8 anti-Baha'i threads within the last month.

I found that dialogue very interesting, as it gave an opposite view. I would like to hear a Myanmar viewpoint on the Rohingya, a Bangladeshi viewpoint on the Hindus there, or more Sinhalese viewpoints on the Sri Lankan civil war. As a curious person, I prefer to hear all sides. I'm not 'on the ground' in any case. Even some neutral UN sponsored groups sometimes have trouble getting close, or are only shown what the side hosting them want them to see.

But then I've always read between the lines, as they say.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Maybe that has to do with the over 100 years of sneaky underhanded proselytizing techniques often disguised as mere friendly dialogue? You appear surprised at the hangover, I'm shocked someone is actually more aloof than I am. It ain't rocket science.

We live in the 21st century in developed multicultural countries where most of what we need to know about religion is readily available. The opportunities for knowledge and communication with others are vast. I’m personally excited about the times we live in and the future. I can’t imagine someone sneakily converting me to their faith.

You linked specific instances of retaliation, not people delivering the "message" through the sword like Christians or even Muslims. I'm sure there are instances of course. So try comparing apples to apples next time. You push people eventually they will push back, using the very tactics used against them, so it would appear.
This is what religion causes. War and divides and unnecessary harm. I'm beginning to feel like just abandoning the lot of it, so they can sort it out for themselves.

When was the last time a Christian delivered the message via the sword in India?

Why feel discouraged because of badly behaved people who fail to live up to the best standards of their faith?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I found that dialogue very interesting, as it gave an opposite view. I would like to hear a Myanmar viewpoint on the Rohingya, a Bangladeshi viewpoint on the Hindus there, or more Sinhalese viewpoints on the Sri Lankan civil war. As a curious person, I prefer to hear all sides. I'm not 'on the ground' in any case. Even some neutral UN sponsored groups sometimes have trouble getting close, or are only shown what the side hosting them want them to see.

But then I've always read between the lines, as they say.

People can justify whatever they want including the slaughter of Rohingya Muslims and Jews. Once the German leadership decided on the final solution they perpetrated their crime with ruthless efficiency. I’m sure it all made perfect sense at the time and the Germans had many sympathetic as anti-Semitic ideology was strong throughout the West.

The Baha’i Faith may be the nuttiest religion on the planet but when one group tries to suppress another through human rights abuses and garners support through misrepresentation a line is crossed.

That being said it was an interesting turn of events. I’m sure there will be a few more anti-Baha’i threads soon.

 

[Vinayaka]

When was the last time a Christian delivered the message via the sword in India?

Is withholding food if you don't convert any different? Would you rather die by the sword, or by starvation? There are still some very nasty things done in efforts to convert.

In history, it was the Muslims (and the Portuguese) who were known for all out violent killing.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That being said it was an interesting turn of events. I’m sure there will be a few more anti-Baha’i threads soon.

I have no doubt about that at all.

That will be the day people see the potential of the Faith, just as Iran knows very well and has thus surpressed the potential for 174 years.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Is withholding food if you don't convert any different? Would you rather die by the sword, or by starvation? There are still some very nasty things done in efforts to convert.

In history, it was the Muslims (and the Portuguese) who were known for all out violent killing.

Any coercion to convert from one religion to another is morally repugnant. OTOH if someone wishes to respectfully convince me through reason and proofs that their religion is better than mine I have no problem. Furthermore I would appreciate the time, effort and patience they have taken to explain their POV.

 

[oldbadger]

Exactly. Tis all fun and games.

Obviously it is for you.
But I do notice that some debates can get quite serious, you know. Political ones n all.
I expect that the mods do quite a lot of work on the forum, hour by hour, day by day.....

 

[SomeRandom]

Obviously it is for you.
But I do notice that some debates can get quite serious, you know. Political ones n all.
I expect that the mods do quite a lot of work on the forum, hour by hour, day by day.....

Which is why I'd never be a mod, even if I were paid.

 

[SomeRandom]

We live in the 21st century in developed multicultural countries where most of what we need to know about religion is readily available. The opportunities for knowledge and communication with others are vast. I’m personally excited about the times we live in and the future. I can’t imagine someone sneakily converting me to their faith.
?

The stain of history is a stubborn one to get rid of. I'm not saying I would eschew a religious discussion. I mean I'd much prefer a literary/artsy discussion over some Whisky, but that's just me.
But there are still sneaky tactics in place even today. Perhaps less frequent in the first world, but there's still the occasional scandal elsewhere. Like giving children placebos and telling them to pray to their God/s for a cure. Then telling them to pray to Jesus and giving them actual medicine. That headline was certainly jaw dropping back in the day lol.
Point is, you can't really act shocked at people's persistent reticence given the track record.

When was the last time a Christian delivered the message via the sword in India?
?

I would hope that the last time was over 100 years ago. But given that religious conflicts still occur in India, I think that to be naive. (And I'm including everyone spreading their message with the sword when I say that, not just Christians.)

Why feel discouraged because of badly behaved people who fail to live up to the best standards of their faith?

Because actions speak louder than words. You can claim whatever you want, but if you fail to follow through with actual action, then those words are just hollow.
Honestly the only religious group that has a track record of actually following the tenants of their religion are probably Jains and Baha'is. I mean at least they have the fewest publicised scandals. Which is something.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The stain of history is a stubborn one to get rid of. I'm not saying I would eschew a religious discussion. I mean I'd much prefer a literary/artsy discussion over some Whisky, but that's just me.
But there are still sneaky tactics in place even today. Perhaps less frequent in the first world, but there's still the occasional scandal elsewhere. Like giving children placebos and telling them to pray to their God/s for a cure. Then telling them to pray to Jesus and giving them actual medicine. That headline was certainly jaw dropping back in the day lol.
Point is, you can't really act shocked at people's persistent reticence given the track record.

Interfaith discussions are challenging and usually involve stepping outside our comfort zones. Perhaps the most important attribute is humility and a willingness to learn. This thread for me is a reflection on the history of India and the experiences of colonisation through the British Empire and beyond. An important theme is what constitutes intergrity or corruption in practice of Faith.

I would hope that the last time was over 100 years ago. But given that religious conflicts still occur in India, I think that to be naive. (And I'm including everyone spreading their message with the sword when I say that, not just Christians.)

I think we would agree that coercion and pressuring one person to change religious affiliation is wrong. The history of forced conversions through violence is perhaps more relevant to Islam's conquest of India. The Christians took a different approach.

Because actions speak louder than words. You can claim whatever you want, but if you fail to follow through with actual action, then those words are just hollow.
Honestly the only religious group that has a track record of actually following the tenants of their religion are probably Jains and Baha'is. I mean at least they have the fewest publicised scandals. Which is something.

That's good to hear.

We all need role models to look up to. People we trust and embody at least in part where we are heading in life. I have those in my Faith. How about for you in Hinduism?