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Hindu: The fallacy of 'Hinduism'

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
Over the course of 5,000 years, what may have been a single religion has diverged over an enormous landmass with diverse languages and diverse local cultures. What little I know of India is that villages have their own deities that another village may have never heard of, much less Hindus at-large. These villagers probably couldn't care less, either.

Yes, but it fallacy to say that it all just one comprehensive religion, as much as it is a fallacy say all Abrahamic religions are one religion. The early Vedic religion or Brahmanical Hinduism was polytheistic, it was based on ritual sacrifices to the devas, and it includes animal and human sacrifices. After that came Vedanta or Vedanta/yogic Hinduism which was monistic, which was based on one supreme reality or cause known as Brahman that was identical to the Self, in fact the Self and Brahman are used interchangeably in the Upanishads. It is distinguished from Brahmanical Hinduism by using the word uttra Mimassa(new tradition) in the same way the New testimant is distinguished from the Old testimant in the bible. The old testimant religion still exists as Judaism, likewise the Purva Mimassa still exists, but it a distinct religion from Vedanta.

After Vedanta came the monothestic religions of the Puranic tradition and each is a distinct religion because it based on the worship of a different separate deity, a different canon of scriptures, a different set of beliefs, different festivals. These we know as Vaishnavism, Shivaism and Shaktism.

So in actual Purva Mimassa, Uttra Mimassa, Vaishnavism, Shivaism and Shaktism are all different religions, as different as Islam, Christianity, Bahai, Gnosticism and Judaism are from one another. This is why I am not obliged to accept all these religions as one or valid, in the same way a Muslim would not consider his religion one with Christianity and Judaism or a Christian would consider their religion one with Islam.

The religion of Hinduism is therefore a fallacy. It is better we treat Purva Miassa, Uttra Mimassa, Vaishnavism, Shivaism and Shaktism are separate religion. The religion I practice for example which comes from Uttra Mimassa is not identical with Vaishnavism.


Remember the case of the girl who was born as a fetus in fetu, with four legs? She was considered an incarnation of Goddess Lakshmi, and even named Lakshmi. Her family had the extra appendages removed through the charity of a doctor and medical center. But the family were cursed by the people of their village and not welcomed back because it was an effront to Maa Lakshmi. Now how ignorant is that? Maa Lakshmi didn't have four legs! :facepalm: These are the people we're talking about.

Yes, it is very embarrassing, but superstition liken this is prevalent through this religion called 'Hinduism' I do not at all identify with any of it and would not want to be associated with it. It unfair that us Vedantins who are thoroughly rational people and belong to a tradition that is considered by many modern scientists, philosophers to be the highest wisdom get clumped in with the rest. Hence, I strongly think we need to get rid of this fallacious classification of 'Hinduism' and start recognizing it's so-called sects as separate religions.

This way there will be no conflict between me and a Vaishnava, for we are different religions and I will be able to treat them like I treat other religions like Islam and Christianity, with tolerance and not identifying with them.

I also understand that much of India is still rural and agrarian. How could these people ever be convinced to call themselves anything? I don't know how it is with the well-to-do and professionals in cities, and their self-identification. I think the genie is out of the bottle as far as usage of an umbrella term, and he isn't going back in.

Nothing is permanent, we can reverse this bad classification the British did by insisting they are separating religions. That is what I tell others as well, Ive got nothing to do with the Hindus who bathe in toxic waters of Ganga, Hindus who worship rats, cows, monkeys, elephants, Hindus who worship Krishna and Shiva and Kali.
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
Religion is this: a path containing a set of rules/guidelines, a mythology to explain those guidelines, rituals that are outward manifestations/reenactments of those mythologies or symbolic expressions of honor, and philosophy which ties all these together. It's function is almost 100% psychological in nature.

I disagree, religion is mans attempt at negotiating the relationship between himself and others and nature. Hence, why all religions deal with morality, how to live a good life and how to attain salvation/happiness/end suffering. Religion makes claims to knowledge. It claims to know the truth about why suffering happens, what our relationship with nature is, how to attain salvation or ending suffering, where we come from etc

Every religion has its own set of claims to knowledge. Some say for example we have been on Earth as a test by God. Some say we are sinners and must redeem our sins by accepting Jesus. Some say that we are here due to ignorance of our essential nature. Some say we are here to desires/craving etc

Obviously the truth claims made by different religions are contradictory, so it is impossible that all are true. Either they are all equally false or one of them is true. My position is Advaita(the real Santana dharma) is the only true religion out there and every claim Advaita makes is true.

By their fruits ye shall know them. The way to determine whether a religion is false is to look at the kind of people it produces. Of course, one of the biggest indicators of a false religion is hoards of angry ex-members. Another indicator is when the religion suspends its particular rules/guidelines in favor of a political purpose.

I don't think this is a valid way of knowing which religion is true or not. It could be that a true religion has many angry ex-members, because they could not face the truth. The only valid of knowing whether a religion is true is by testing it claims though perception and reasoning. For these are the only independent means via which knowledge can be tested. For example if you test Christianity and Islam, you instantly know they are false, because many of their truth claims have been falsified. Likewise with Puranas. Likewise with the Vedas(as you pointed out yourself in the other thread the Brahmanas believed the sun set or rose)

But multiple religions can be true, and multiple religions can be false. It's not only one out of many.

No, there is only true religion, there cannot be many truths or variations in truth. That true religion is Advaita, because

1) It is validated through perception and reasoning
2) Its truths appear in the mystical traditions of all religions, proving they are cross-cultural and hence universal
3) Its truths are validated by modern science

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind Advaita is known and practiced by every enlightened civilization in the universe.

That's not what Swami Nikhilananda's translation to The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna seemed to indicate; for crying out loud, he practiced Islam for about a week, studying under a Muslim guru, following Muslim practices, and even stopped using the name of Kali during this time.

Sounds like he was following multiple religions to me.

Muslims don't have gurus lol You cannot practice a religion for just a week and then declare its validity. The truth is Ramakrishna only superficially practiced these religions and did not actually understand these religions at all, but understood them through the prism of Hinduism.

But one antibiotic is not like unto another.

But they are still antibiotics and that is my point. There is only way one in medicine to cure a bacteria infection with antibiotics. Likewise, there is one way to cure ignorance, through knowledge. The only way in Advaita is through meditation. There can be several types of meditation as there can be several types of antibiotics suited to different people, but the process is still the same.

Huh. I thought it was 'neti neti."

Neti Neti is a technique used to lead to Jnana. Advaita says only Jnana is the antidote to ignorance. Advaita does not recognize worship of gods or karma as valid paths to liberation.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
dear sureya deva ,

A 100 years ago we were riding around in horse driven carriages, today we are sending space shuttles to Mars and are on the brink of travelling to our nearest stars. This is not progress?

this kind of progress is purely material progress , and what have we done with such progress ? what they are doing is searching for material wealth , minerals to exploit and a place to go when we have destroyed this planet , what progress is that ?


A 100 years ago a women had no rights and played a secondary role to men. Today, women are holding office, outperforming men at university in most subjects, and become CEO's of companies. This is not progress?
you speak of human rights as progress yet you do not seem to belive in freedom of thought and beleif ???

as a woman I may speak on this , do you think becoming a CEO of a company is an important progression in life ? I am sorry I care more for equality between nations whereby no nations people starve or suffer the concequences of war .

your kind of equality has simply elevated woman to the same position as men in a corupt and unjust world which places value on material progress and the accumulation of wealth .

true progress is not material but spiritual and spiritual progress in this world would lead to a more ballanced society without excesses of greed need or hatred .

It is dogmatic because it expects you to accept the philosophy of religious pluralism or relativism. What if we don't agree with the philosophy?
no not religious pluralism , .......religious tollerance !

you do not have to accept anothers philosophy , but progress in this world would be accepting it !
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
I am sorry it is silly denying that we have not progressed compared to a few hundred years ago. I am not even going to debate something so silly. Compare the rights of women today to the rights she had hundreds of years ago, or even today in places in like Afghanistan, and tell me with a straight face weve not made progress?

Compare the average human life expectancy today with the average life human expectancy a few hundred years ago, and tell me that we have not made any progress in general health and management.

Compare the democratic governments in the advanced world today with the feudal governments a few hundred years ago and tell me we have not made progress in the rights of citizens.

There was a time where free and independent thinkers like me would have been executed or burned at the stake. Phew, how I am relived I am living in the 21st century.
 
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Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
ou speak of human rights as progress yet you do not seem to belive in freedom of thought and beleif ???

When did I say I do not believe in freedom of thought and belief? I believe have always said to you and made it very explicitly clear that I believe in your right to form any belief you want, but that does not I mean I am going to accept it or not going to challenge it.

Honestly for you to think that I should accept your beliefs as equally valid to mine is not only unrealistic but it is actually really oppressive. How can I possible accept your beliefs as equally valid to mine when I think your beliefs are invalid? It is like expecting a Christian to accept Jesus as equally valid as Krishna. Dream on.
 
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ratikala

Istha gosthi
I am sorry it is silly denying that we have not progressed compared to a few hundred years ago. I am not even going to debate something so silly. Compare the rights of women today to the rights she had hundreds of years ago, or even today in places in like Afghanistan, and tell me with a straight face weve not made progress?

you were siteing the rights of woman to become a CEO big deal ! and technology giving us the capability to reach the moon .I am calling that material advancement only .

Compare the average human life expectancy today with the average life human expectancy a few hundred years ago, and tell me that we have not made any progress in general health and management.
yes , I agree health care (for those who can afford it) is an advancement .
but in terms of humanity we will have made progress when we have leveled the imbalance between those who are fortunate enough to receive such benifits and those who have no access to any health care at all and when the so called advanced nations share a little of their good fortune rather than securing their own position at the expence of others .


Compare the democratic governments in the advanced world today with the feudal governments a few hundred years ago and tell me we have not made progress in the rights of citizens.
democratic governments in the advanced world ????? you must be kidding !at least the fudal lords didnt go in for world wide arms dealing , .....and as for citizens rights only where it is politicaly avantagious , it is just that the levels of control these days are more subtle , yes some citizens have rights , they have granted them selves the right to manipulate for their own gain and have little regard or sence of responcibility towards others .
There was a time where free and independent thinkers like me would have been executed or burned at the stake. Phew, how I am relived I am living in the 21st century.
I thought you were an advatin ? were advatins burnt at the stake ?

what I am saying is that we have exchanged basic humanity for material gain , this I do not concider to be progress !
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
When did I say I do not believe in freedom of thought and belief? I believe have always said to you and made it very explicitly clear that I believe in your right to form any belief you want, but that does not I mean I am going to accept it or not going to challenge it.

freedom of thought allso implies the fredom to express that thought without criticism or sensure .
this you are not capable of doing , therefore your actions are not in accordance with your beliffs about your own sence of fairness !


Honestly for you to think that I should accept your beliefs as equally valid to mine is not only unrealistic but it is actually really oppressive. How can I possible accept your beliefs as equally valid to mine when I think your beliefs are invalid? It is like expecting a Christian to accept Jesus as equally valid as Krishna. Dream on.
not once have I said that I see any other faith as invalid , I am quite happy for an advaitin to practice according to his understanding so if I can see all paths as having some validity to some section of humanity , then I dont see why you canot do it if you want to , it is possible !so the answer to your question ..... "Honestly for you to think that I should accept your beliefs as equally valid to mine .......is not only unrealistic ......but it is actualy realy oppressive ."

I repeat that if I can then it is also possible for you to do likewise :yes:

there is nothing un realistic about reasonable behavior ,

and nothing oppressive after all no one is calling your path invalid ?

and yes I am quite happy to say that the path a christian chooses to follow is as valid as my path as both lead to god realisation , so yes I am happy to say that jesus is equqly as valid as krsna ! and if I can say that I hope that there are some christians allso who would not take the invalid approach .

so on the subject of dreaming on ......:yes: I do !
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
what I am saying is that we have exchanged basic humanity for material gain , this I do not concider to be progress !

All or nothing fallacy. I am sorry I am not going to take somebody who denies we've made progress compared to say 100 years ago seriously. Yes, nothing is perfect, health care is not perfect, the rights of women are still not perfect, social inequality still exists, governments are not perfect.... but they are definitely better than what we had in the past. To deny that is irrationality and I won't take it seriously.

o on the subject of dreaming on ...... I do !

Unrealistic, to expect others to agree with your beliefs, consider them equally valid their own and not criticize them. While you may accept Krishna as equally valid to Christ, the majority of Christians will not.

You are a religious pluralist and I am not . Can you respect that?
 

Pleroma

philalethist
you allso confess to know more than others ?

Nope, you are misrepresenting what I am saying. I am telling Pleroma who is telling me I don't know anything about Hinduism because I do not recognize the one true Sun-God or recognize that intelligence exists in "Platonic realms" that I know more about Hinduism than he does. What he presents isn't even Hinduism, it is some bizarre mix of Hinduism, with Platonism, Gnosticism, Aryanism, new-age and Indian nationalism.

Your dream of unifying hindus with your false notions of Advaita Vedanta is not going to come true. You're simply wasting your time. The official western scholarship who study the Vedas and the Upanishads only from an historical perspective are never going to know the truth behind the Vedas and the Upanishads because the official methodology to study the Vedas is based on Mandala.
Mandala - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You don't understand our values, principles, philosophy, the sanyasa dharma and its importance, your dream is simply not going to come true so just don't waste your time.

One doesn't need a Phd to know God, what one needs is sincere practice, humulity and a sense of surrendering.

To remove some of your misconceptions about me, I'm no hindu, I follow the Vedic Aryan religion, I don't do idol worship, I don't worship Rama, Krishna or Shiva, you have got no idea about the ontology of the gods. Everything in India is just fine, there is no fallacy, yes, the youth is striving in the wrong direction, that's a concern, but hey I'm young and I'm an optimist.
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
Surya Deva;3065187]Paranoia. Typical Hindu nationalist, thinking anybody that says anything critical about Hinduism must be a Christian in disguise. I also have made some very critical comments about Christianity in the past for the record.

The ability for self-criticism of your own religion is a sign of maturity and intellectual independence.

Ahh, that's where you are wrong, criticism, on about the inhumane and prejudice ideas that have crept in the system I have no problem with, criticism based on the the idea of my way or the highway I consider to be works of people bend on division.

The entire Hindu philosophy is based on criticism of philosophy itself and interpretations of scriptures. Criticising Hindus within Hinduism is not a new idea, you should know as you have a great understanding of Swami Dayananda Saraswati and his teachings.

My "Hindu Nationalism", stems from critics who wish to divide, and rule, not from critics who attempt to unite and prosper.

Right, so everybody lived happy and peacefully and the big bad wolf British came along and divided everybody and pitted against each other. Again typical Hindu nationalist fantasy of India. The reality is India was already very divided and the British took advantage of those fault lines. India has historically never existed as a united entity, for very brief periods empires have arisen and united parts of it, but for the most part it has existed as a fragmented entity. The modern day nation state of India has never existed in the past.

Do you know that the History of India did not start when the British invaded, nor did it start when the Moguls invaded, prior to these two great invasions there is little to suggest that India was not united, the name Bharatvarsha and Aryavarta says it all.

No, it is the fault of Hinduism. The fact the religion of the people was so divided and fragmented itself, reflected in the society of India, which was equally divided and fragmented.

You are sounding more and more like any Missionary, who state that all of Indians problems are Hinduism, and they must rid Hinduism to "Save", the Indians.

That why I call you out.

This is true, but not enough work has been done on these issues. There are still many people in rural India, remember India is 70% rural practicing oppressive systems like the caste system. Hindu fundamentalism is widespread today and is behind attacks on Muslims and Christians missionaries, most recently in the Gujurat riots, which many international humans rights organizations have called a systematic genocide. There is mass superstition in the society such as bathing in toxic waters like Ganga. Simply put, Hinduism is a mess. Indian Hindus may be prefer to be ignorant about it, but the rest of the world considers Hinduism a mess and mocks it.

And what do you suggest?


I mean by dead traditions traditions which are obsolete in the 21st century scientific world - like guru-shishya parampara, idol worship/murti puja, begging on the streers for alms. Yes, India is pretty much dead. It has been reduced to a pathetic state today. While India cannot be saved, Hinduism can be saved, and that is by completely disassociating it from India and making it global, otherwise Hinduism will sink along with India.

Ahh, so the saving can only come from...what?

The geographical forms of Hinduism are dead and the world does not need them, but the Vedantic/Yogic form of Hinduism is very relevant in the world and as Swami Vivekananda said, it should be the religion of the people of the future. This means we need to divest Hinduism of its pantheon of deities, its dead traditions, its superstition and fundamentalism and reform it for the mindset and the needs of the 21st century.

Ahh, kill the eastern tradition to adopt the western one, great idea.

What Indian Hindus do not realize this is already happening. It is the modern Western intellectuals who now own the asset of Hinduism. They are drawing from Hinduism's wisdom to progress our modern civilisation, while Indian Hindus are stuck in a time warp worshiping stones and monkeys lol I consider people like Schrodinger, Bohm and Einstein more Hindu than I consider Indian Hindus Hindus.

Thats your POV, I consider Swami dayananda, Vivekananda, Aurobindo more Hindu then them.

Whatever they did, they succeed to a large extent: Modern day Hinduism is a total mess. The youth of Hinduism are embarrassed and turning away from Hinduism in droves. The gurus are corrupt and molesting disciples, and embezzling money from gullible people and are on power trips. Lets face it the religion is a total mess. It needs reform.

Many reformist have tried, but you have also criticised them.


First of all there is no real religion called 'Hinduism' that you can enter or leave. There is no formal way of joining or leaving. Like I said in the OP it is a mess. It the term "Hindu" is meaningless. It does not tell us anything about ones beliefs or practices. I tell an inconvenient truth - but what I say is true and voiced by many intellectuals.

That why its called Universal Righteousness, Sanatana Darma.

To each is own, that is Sanatana Dharma.

I am calling a spade a spade - a mess a mess. Hinduism is a mess. But I am not criticizing it out of hatred, but pointing out the mess to show why it imperative that we clean it up. We need central doctrines that all Hindus agree on and central authorities to organize our religion - otherwise there is no religion - it's just religious anarchy.

And im calling a Christian a Christian.

And what doctrine will that be...the bible or Koran.

But there is no hope because Hindus are NEVER going to agree on anything. In the same way Christians, Muslims and Jews won't agree with one another.
This is why it is better to get rid of this fallacious religious classification called 'Hinduism' and adopt the actual authentic term 'Santana Dharma' The only form of Hinduism which is santana is Vedantic/Yogic Hinduism and it found not just in Hinduism, but in the mystical traditions of every religion and in modern science. Geographical Hinduism is not 'sanatana.

Sanatana is individualism, if we take that away its not Sanatana.
 
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Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
yes I can . but can you?

Yes, I can respect the fact that you adopt the philosophy of religious pluralism. That does not mean I am not going to debate it with you. I am going to challenge any philosophy that I do not agree with. You are welcome to defend this philosophy against those challenges and debate with me, or to not debate.

My problem is with you portraying religious pluralism as a fundamental aspect of Hinduism. Shankara was not a religious pluralist, and he is arguably one of the greatest Hindu philosophers, saint, reformer and poets to have ever lived.
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
My "Hindu Nationalism", stems from critics who wish to divide, and rule, not from critics who attempt to unite and prosper.

Hinduism cannot be united anymore than the hypothetical religion 'Abrahamism' can be united, because Hinduism is religious classification which attempts to unite disparate belief systems. Just as Islam, Christianity and Judaism cannot be united, nor can Puranic Hinduism, Brahmanical Hinduism, Vedantic Hinduism and Shamanic/Tribal Hinduism be united. They should be recognized as separate religions.

I also say with reservation that the the parts of Puranic Hinduism: Consisting of Vaishnavism, Shiavism and Shaktism can be united. They can be united if we regard Puranic Hinduism as henothestic, but there are still problems. Vaishnavism is very much like its own religion, and its closest parallel is probably Christianity. As it essential a personality worshipping religion, like Christianity is and has similar doctrines like the lord incarnating on Earth to bring righteousness/right religion. It is based on its own canon of scriptures the Bhagvad Gita, Vaishnava Puranas and Bhakti Sutras.

Shivaism and Shaktism are very different, for they are not really personality worshiping religions, they worship Shiva or Nature as supreme principles and are strongly based on Advaitic like philosophy. In fact they have their own philosophical system of Tantra and their own canon of scriptures the Tantra and Agamas and consider their Agamas as superior authority to the Vedas. They share very little in common with the Vaishnavas.

Hence a softer case can be made for considering Vaishnavism, Shiavism and Shaktism as separate religions. On the other hand, a very strong case can be made to consider Puranic Hinduism, Vedantic Hinduism, Brahmanical Hinduism and Tribal/Shamanic Hinduism different religions. It is unfair for Hindus like me to be associated with these types of Hinduism, when I have barely anything in common with them.

Do you know that the History of India did not start when the British invaded, nor did it start when the Moguls invaded, prior to these two great invasions there is little to suggest that India was not united, the name Bharatvarsha and Aryavarta says it all.

The nation state of India did not exist until the British united it under the British Raj. This is clearly a fact and nobody can deny this. Prior to that the entity known as 'India' throughout its known history from the janapradas to the Mughal and Maratha empire, India has mainly existed as a collection of different kingdoms, with different kings and queens, which have constantly been at war with each other. For very brief periods certain Indian kingdoms have established empires which have united large tracts of Indian land, the largest of which were the Mauraya empire and the Maratha empire.

The sad fact is that India never really stabilized as a single geographic body or political entity like many European countries did(under the influence of Christianity) or many Arabic countries did(under the influence of Islam) or entire China did(under the influence of Confucianism) and Hinduism can indeed be squarely blamed for this for no single comprehensive religion originated in India that could unite India, and hence why India existed as a fragmented entity.

You are sounding more and more like any Missionary, who state that all of Indians problems are Hinduism, and they must rid Hinduism to "Save", the Indians.

No, on the contrary I am saying to save 'Hinduism' we must get rid of India's association with it, else Hinduism will be regarded, as it is by many in the world as the religion of a poor third world country. This is why I propose that we emphasis Vedantic(Advaita) Hinduism as true Hinduism and use that to unite all Hindus in the world. Vedantic Hinduism is a religion that is compatible with a 21st century scientific world, as many scientists and philosophers in modern times have demonstrated by appreciating it. Vedantic Hinduism does have common doctrines which can unify it:

1) Brahman
2) Atman
3) Maya
4) Karma and Samsara
5) Yoga(Meditation)

Vedantic Hinduism is a clear and comprehensive religion like any other religions, whereas 'Hinduism' is not. We can clearly answer the important questions that define a religion with Vedantic Hinduism

1) When and who founded the religion? Vedantic Hiduism was founded by the Risis of the Upanishads in 1000BCE and then developed in the Jnana tradition that developed from it where all the core concepts were formulated.
2) Who is the god of the religion? There is no God per se, but rather what is called God is the result of ignorance by superimposing the qualities of the Self/Atman Brahman on Maya. The supreme principle is Brahman/Self which is an impersonal absolute reality, not God.
3) How did creation happen? There is in fact no creation, what we perceive to be creation is mere empirical reality of name and form, whose substratum is the Maya, a field of consciousness. It is due to our ignorance or perceptual error that we perceive this empirical reality.
4) What is the cause of suffering? Suffering is the result of the misidentification of consciousness with the products of Maya(matter) resulting in consciousness become bound(bondage) and and projected into the empirical world as a local finite consciousness(jiva) who falsely believes it is the intellect, mind, body and hence experiences its pain and pleasures.
5) How does one attain salvation/liberation? Liberation is attained when the consciousness attains discriminative knowledge of the distinction between consciousness and maya(matter) and this ceases the machinations of the mind(chit-vrittis)
6) How does one practice this religion? The practice of meditation is done to purify the mind(chitta suddhi) ceasing the chitt-vrittis. This is best achieved through the Yoga of Ashtanga Kriya Yoga which systematically purifies every aspect of the mind-body complex and enables maximum spiritual development.

Vedantic Hinduism gives a highly coherent, logical, evidence-based and scientific religion which is purely based on the values of spiritual development and enlightenment. It is suited to the mindset of the 21st century. If all Hindus practiced this religion Hindus would have a highly scientific and advanced civilization and be prosperous(much more than the West today) Just as they were during the times of the Upanishads, before Puranic Hinduism kicked in and Hindus fragmented into gazillions of divisions and then were invaded left, right and center by foreigners and Hindu civilization fell.

Hinduism on the other gives a mess and cannot answer a single question definitively.

Ahh, kill the eastern tradition to adopt the western one, great idea.

Modern civilization is not just Western, it is based on the cultural steams and flows of all cultures in the world. In fact in the 21st century of globalization(an idea in-line with ancient Vedic thought of Vasudeva kutumbukum) nation-states are becoming an obsolete idea. The only ideologists that cling to nation-states are nationalists.

Thats your POV, I consider Swami dayananda, Vivekananda, Aurobindo more Hindu then them.

Taking Vedantic Hinduism as the true definition of Hinduism, because it is the only form of Hinduism which is Santana dharma, I would say Swami Dayananda is the least Hindu because he lends to a highly geographical and nationalist Hinduism which is not Santana. Aurobindo is more Hindu because he recognizes that Hinduism should be global and spiritual(strongly inspired by Vivekananda) but he is also nationalist at the same time and attempts to reinterpret the Vedas spiritually to save pride, and Swami Vivekananda the most Hindu because he falsified geographical Hinduism and presented Vedantic Hinduism as the future religion of all of humanity.

Many reformist have tried, but you have also criticised them.

Most reformists end up creating their own religion: Buddha(Buddhism) Mahavira(Jainism) and Guru Nanak(Sikhism) which basically suggests that 'Hinduism' is a lost cause and perhaps it is simply better to get rid of it and separate Hinduism out into separate religions, or to attempt the greatest reform of all history of religion, getting Hindus to agree to accept Vedantic(Advaita, not the Puranic forgeries of Dvaita etc)Hinduism as the one and ONLY Hinduism.

That why its called Universal Righteousness, Sanatana Darma.

To each is own, that is Sanatana Dharma.

No, that is called postmodernism, another word for mess. Postmodernism is not anymore a region than Hinduism is. To tell everyone that everybody just has an interpretation of the truth, to each his own, is a cop-out and it cannot unify anybody. This is Western civilization is in crisis today, because its caught up in the mess of postmodernism and has fragmented just like Hinduism is. This reflects in the newest movement in religion in the West - new-age religion.



And im calling a Christian a Christian.

And what doctrine will that be...the bible or Koran.

It's clear I am not Christian, so please stop calling me Christian. I reject that religion as much as I reject Puranic Hinduism.(don't call me Muslim either, as I think even less of Islam than I do of Christianity) If it helps to assuage your paranoia, I consider Puranic Hinduism one level better than Christianity, but only JUST.



Sanatana is individualism, if we take that away its not Sanatana.

Why is individualism eternal?
 
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Maya3

Well-Known Member
You are sounding more and more like any Missionary, who state that all of Indians problems are Hinduism, and they must rid Hinduism to "Save", the Indians.

Yes you do, you sound just like a missionary.

And one of the reasons Hinduism is still here in ALL it's forms, is that people respect that there are different beliefs within the umbrella of Hinduism. By having this acceptance within our core as Hindus we are less susceptible to fear talk as: "You will burn in Hell if you don't change and believe as I do. Your beliefs are outdated, ours is better. Watch out or you will burn."

If you have a mindset that says any belief is acceptable, then you will not be fearful that your religion might be wrong.
Diversity is our strength, not something that should be looked down upon.

You can believe in your version of Advaita as much as you want.
But you do not have the right to come here and tell everyone else that they are wrong.
Especially not with your tactic of belittling and rudeness.

Maya
 

Pleroma

philalethist
It is unfair for Hindus like me to be associated with these types of Hinduism, when I have barely anything in common with them.

All Hindus are One. We will not change our culture just because for you. The world is in need of our culture and not the other way around.

Yes a tantric who wanders in a graveyard knows more than you and your Phd's all combined. Got it? This is our culture, the world needs to adopt it not the other way around.

We are not moved even by an inch.
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
Especially not with your tactic of belittling and rudeness.

Maya

Excuse me, but you are the one name-calling me here by ganging up on me with Satyamavejayanti and calling me a Christian missionary(effectively attempting to undermine my status as a Hindu and accusing me of conspiracy to subvert the religion). So I would say it is yourself who is being rude and belittling.

It is rather telling in this thread other Hindus rather than responding to my arguments feel it is just as valid to use adhominems against me(This is why I previously compared myself to Jesus in a tongue and cheek manner, I am being persecuted for harboring heretical ideas about our religion) Seriously, if you don't agree with me then debate with me and respond to my criticisms, and if you can't do that, then don't participate - but stop making this personal.

The more adhominems that are thrown at me convinces me of my position. It shows me that my arguments are so logically strong, that the opponent has to resort to adhominems to suppress them. However, if there are indeed flaws in my arguments then I most definitely welcome refutations, for then I can refine, revise or even discard my ideas when given enough reason to do so.

So lets come to an agreement from this point on: No more adhominems past this point from either me, you or anybody else.

Now coming to an actual constructive point to be made in this debate:

And one of the reasons Hinduism is still here in ALL it's forms, is that people respect that there are different beliefs within the umbrella of Hinduism. By having this acceptance within our core as Hindus we are less susceptible to fear talk as: "You will burn in Hell if you don't change and believe as I do. Your beliefs are outdated, ours is better. Watch out or you will burn."

If you have a mindset that says any belief is acceptable, then you will not be fearful that your religion might be wrong.
Diversity is our strength, not something that should be looked down upon.

I refute this with one single word: Shankara Shankara did not respect different beliefs and did not accept any tradition other than Advaita. He actively seeked and participated in debates where he attempted to destroy the other person's philosophy/beliefs and convert them to his own. Shankara is regarded as one of the greatest Hindu philosophers and saints of all time.

Therefore it is clear religious pluralism is not essential or binding on all Hindus. To force this philosophy on all Hindus is dogmatic, oppressive and censorship and completely against the free-thinking intellectual culture of Hinduism. It also worries me, to what extent you would go to censor my views?
 

Pleroma

philalethist
Excuse me, but you are the one name-calling me here by ganging up on me with Satyamavejayanti and calling me a Christian missionary(effectively attempting to undermine my status as a Hindu and accusing me of conspiracy to subvert the religion). So I would say it is yourself who is being rude and belittling.

It is rather telling in this thread other Hindus rather than responding to my arguments feel it is just as valid to use adhominems against me(This is why I previously compared myself to Jesus in a tongue and cheek manner, I am being persecuted for harboring heretical ideas about our religion) Seriously, if you don't agree with me then debate with me and respond to my criticisms, and if you can't do that, then don't participate - but stop making this personal.

The more adhominems that are thrown at me convinces me of my position. It shows me that my arguments are so logically strong, that the opponent has to resort to adhominems to suppress them. However, if there are indeed flaws in my arguments then I most definitely welcome refutations, for then I can refine, revise or even discard my ideas when given enough reason to do so.

So lets come to an agreement from this point on: No more adhominems past this point from either me, you or anybody else.

Now coming to an actual constructive point to be made in this debate:



I refute this with one single word: Shankara Shankara did not respect different beliefs and did not accept any tradition other than Advaita. He actively seeked and participated in debates where he attempted to destroy the other person's philosophy/beliefs and convert them to his own. Shankara is regarded as one of the greatest Hindu philosophers and saints of all time.

Therefore it is clear religious pluralism is not essential or binding on all Hindus. To force this philosophy on all Hindus is dogmatic, oppressive and censorship and completely against the free-thinking intellectual culture of Hinduism. It also worries me, to what extent you would go to censor my views?

And how many times we have to tell you that your views on Advaita is wrong, advaita is theistic not atheistic and you were advised to find an atheistic religion and stop preaching us as to what hinduism or advaita is. Gods are important and you just can't do away with them like that.
 

Maya3

Well-Known Member
Excuse me, but you are the one name-calling me here by ganging up on me with Satyamavejayanti and calling me a Christian missionary(effectively attempting to undermine my status as a Hindu and accusing me of conspiracy to subvert the religion). So I would say it is yourself who is being rude and belittling.

I did not say that you are Christian. I said that you act like a missionary. Telling everyone that they are wrong, superstitious and that Hinduism is a mess.
Telling everyone here that their way of worshiping is wrong and only your way is right.

If you truly want to debate, you should be able to get your point across and still respect that others have different views than you.

Things like this is pretty standard on internet discussion forums: "You see it that way? Interesting, I feel it should be like this. How do you feel about this?
What is your opinion on this? I feel like this."

Instead of: "You are wrong, you are superstitious. Hinduism is a mess. Indian Hindus may be prefer to be ignorant about it. Your belief is invalid."

Notice no one else on this forum says things like that. It is rude, pure and simple.

Maya
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
SD, I don't think you're a christian missionary. However, I do notice an element of "I'm right and you're wrong," coming through loud and clear, as it does with many Christians. So maybe that's where they're getting this from. I noticed that with ISKCON a long time ago ... seems they carried it over from an earlier belief system.

Personally, I think many of your points actually make a lot of sense. Not all, just many ... of course this is just my opinion, and I'm most likely about to be told I'm wrong.
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
All Hindus are One. We will not change our culture just because for you. The world is in need of our culture and not the other way around.

The reality is obviously very different :yes: Hinduism exists as one of the most fragmented religions in the world, if not the most fragmented religion. There is no single comprehensive doctrine, no single accepted canon, no single accepted founder, no single set of beliefs and practices, no single overarching organization. The history of Hinduism is one characterized by fierce verbal violence, debate and sporadic physical violence. What happens when all these disparate sects of Hinduism come together in one gathering?

1690: Saivites and Vaishnava sects battle at Nashik; 60,000 are killed.​

1760 Saiva sannyasis fight Vaishnava vairagis in tragic battle at Hardwar Kumbha Mela; 18,000 monks are killed.​

1796 Over two million worshipers compete for sacred Ganga bath at Kumbha Mela in Hardwar. Five thousand Saiva ascetics are killed in tragic clash with Sikh ascetics.​

This violence continues up until modern times:

The Rapid Action Force has been deployed at sensitive places in the Kumbh Mela area to prevent recurrence of incidents like the clash on March 28 between the sadhus of two akharas.

Rediff On The NeT: RAF deployed at Kumbh Mela to prevent violence

Hinduism is akin to mass schizophrenia and confusion and hence the manic episodes we are constantly witnessing in Hinduism, like stampedes:

November 8, 2011 - 16 people were killed at Haridwar, India during a religious ceremony in the banks of Ganges river.
January 15, 2011: 102 people died and 100 were injured during a stampede near Sabarimala temple in Kerala State of Southern India.
March 4, 2010: At least 71 killed and over 200 injured at Ram Janki Temple, in Kunda, India, in a stampede after the gates of the temple collapsed.
September 30, 2008: 147 people were killed during the Chamunda Devi stampede at the Chamunda Devi temple in Jodhpur, India. The tragedy was caused by a rumor that a bomb was planted in the temple complex.[26] Local authorities, however, blamed steep, slippery slopes leading to the temple.[5][27]
August 3, 2008: At least 162 people were killed and 47 injured in a stampede at the Naina Devi temple in Himachal Pradesh in mountainous northern India after a rain shelter collapsed, which worshipers mistakenly took to be a landslide.
March 27, 2008: 8 people were killed and 10 injured at an Indian temple crush during a pilgrimage.[24]
January 2005: 265 people were killed as Hindu pilgrims stampede near a remote temple in Maharashtra, India.

All the way down to:

1954 500-800 killed at Kumbha Mela, Allahabad.

Stampede - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hence we can clearly see that this notion of Hinduism's unity and peaceful and tolerant nature is a myth. I tell an inconvenient truth, but a truth which is far better than deluding oneself with ideas like Hinduism is united and peaceful. By telling this inconvenient truth I am waking Hindu people up, showing them the naked reality of Hinduism and stirring them to reform. Of course not overtly, for I have no interest to mobilize and galvanize Hindus into action. I am running no campaign here. I am simply stating my own case for what the reality of Hinduism is.


Yes a tantric who wanders in a graveyard knows more than you and your Phd's all combined. Got it? This is our culture, the world needs to adopt it not the other way around.

We are not moved even by an inch.

Ahem, I am part of that culture ;) It is silly to make such overgeneralizing statements that a tantric who wanders in the graveyard knows more about Hinduism than anybody. I met such tantriks when I was in India, and some of them were scoundarals and criminals and in a developed country would be considered substance-abusers. In fact one of them attempted to entice me by trying to sell me drugs, and then pretended he had selected me as his disciple for giving me secret tantric knowledge, and then tried to get me to meet him in early hours of morning in a secluded place......(I shiver as to what his intentions were)

I had very romantic ideas about gurus, sadhus, swamis etc like you do, until I experienced the ground reality in India. Simply put, just because somebody is a guru, sadhu, swami etc is no proof of their enlightenment, piety or knowledge.
 
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