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Hindu Only: two quick questions

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by MochaRadha, Sep 23, 2012.

  1. MochaRadha

    MochaRadha Member

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    im doing this to respond to an arguement i had on youtube. i thought i ould try and make a video on it. this mans excuse for why women should be obedient is based on physical strength. he told me men and women will never be equal because men cant give birth,and asked me if i could lift 250lbs. no but many other women can so here are my two questions



    is the international society for krishna conciusness a a apart of hinduism? also are the below acurate? (yes this guy was from this,)

    “With God as guide, let us take, the first step to nourish each other, the second step to grow together in strength, the third step to preserve our wealth, the fourth step to share our joys and sorrows, the fifth step to care for our children, the sixth step to be together forever, and the seventh step to remain lifelong friends, perfect halves to make a perfect whole.”

    The words “perfect halves to make perfect hole” is the final word of Hinduism on the relationship between husband and wife. Thus Hinduism provides same religious rights and privileges to women as it does to men. Neither is woman superior to man, nor is man superior to woman. Both are “perfect halves to make perfect hole.”

    The following are quotes from other scriptures that further confirm the equality between men and women in all religious and spiritual aspects:

    “Unite, O Lord, this couple like a pair of lovebirds. May they be surrounded by children living both long and happy ” Atharva Veda Samhita 14.2.64

    “Let there be faithfulness to each other until death. This may be considered as the summary of the highest law for husband and wife.” Manu Smriti 9.101



    “May our prayers and worship be alike, and may our devotional offerings be one and the same.” Rig Veda Samhita 10.191.3
     
    #1 MochaRadha, Sep 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 7, 2012
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  2. Storm

    Storm ThrUU the Looking Glass

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    It's rather gentle by my standards, but not a bad start.

    Will delete this post if anyone objects.
     
  3. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Yes, ISKCON (Krishna Consciousness) is generally considered part of Hinduism, although opinions vary. At one time ISKCON itself denied they were Hindu, but generally speaking, yes.

    Quotes from scripture are chronically being debated, and translated in various ways, so there is far less of a definitive answer to the second question. It will depend who you ask. Many consider, for example, the Manu Smrti outdated and no longer relevant.
     
  4. MochaRadha

    MochaRadha Member

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    interesting. but generally do you think he could use hinduism to back up his theory that women are inferior because of physical abilities or is this guy just a moron who has no idea what hes talking about
     
  5. MochaRadha

    MochaRadha Member

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    oh i just thought of something else too. the founder of iskcon said that families fall apart because women wont be submissive and its her nature to be,yet goes on to say killing cows is a great sin. so female animals are highly respected like gods,just not human females
     
  6. Maya3

    Maya3 Well-Known Member

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    Not answering from an ISCKON perspective. Yeah, he is probably a sexist moron.

    Gender equality is something that I feel very strongly about, and I think it is very important to have in mind the time period when the scriptures were written.
    They were written thousands of years ago and frankly we have evolved a lot since then.
    There is no reason to hold on to sexist, racist or homophobic ideals.
    That doesn't mean that we shouldn't read them or learn from them, but people lived through a completely different set of circumstances back then.

    As to if men are stronger then women physically...
    well in some ways yes, they can get more muscle mass so yes they can get stronger. But you cant make distinctions like that it depends on whom you compare with. Both my husband and I work out, he is stronger then me, but I'm stronger then men who don't work out, so it all depends.

    And yes women are equal to men, different yes, but never unequal. :)

    Maya
     
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  7. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Perhaps from ISKCON, but they are a controversial group, even within Hinduism, and like Maya, I wouldn't speak for them. I agree with what Maya said on women in general. In most other groups within Hinduism, women are held in very high regard, so much that in some areas of life, Hindu culture could be considered matriarchal.
     
  8. MochaRadha

    MochaRadha Member

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    yes i agree that was my point it depends on the person themselves
     
  9. MochaRadha

    MochaRadha Member

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    lol not to mention he said hitler wasnt that bad.
     
  10. Gaura Priya

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    I really don't like how people label new religious movements as cults. I have been practicing Gaudiya Vaishnavism, and I have many friends from ISKCON, many of which I do not see as even cult-like at all.I do not see Mormons as a cult, but a sect of Christianity (the Latter Day Saint movement), one group holding an institutionalised form of the movement.

    ISKCON is an institutionalised form of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. It isn't the only one out there, and even within the organisation, there are various thoughts in the group.

    In regards to womanhood, yes, the Vedic Scriptures hold women in the highest regard. However, in many religious organisations, women still are held back my certain notions and outdated beliefs.

    For example: wife should be behind the husband, wife should eat after the husband, wife should see husband as guru, etc.

    This 'MORON' of which I revere as a teacher of bhakti, allowed women to take diksha (initiation) in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, where it was heretofore absolutely too innovative for the orthodox Hindu world. Also, Gaudiya Vaishnavism is one of the few sects of Hinduism that have both men AND women wearing Vaishnava tilaka.

    Women did not usually take some sort of austere lifestyle outside of marriage. ISKCON did provide an ashrama for brahmacharinis, many of which act as sannyasinis, even when scripturally it is unheard of.

    ISKCON also brought women to become pujarinis. Before, it was mainly men who dealt with temple worship, but in ISKCON temples you will see women in the front.

    It's too bad that the Gaudiya Vaishnava world isn't ready for female gurus, of which we could use.

    I know many strong women at the local ISKCON temple who will never listen to an opinion simply because a man said so.
     
    #10 Gaura Priya, Oct 1, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2012
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  11. Gaura Priya

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    I should give a talking to this guy... I'm also a Hare Krishna and things have changed since Victorian ideals became unpopular, archaic and outdated.

    Hinduism has alot of sexist tendencies among the followers, and ISKCON is only one opinion of a plethora of them, let alone the devotees within ISKCON.
     
  12. Me Myself

    Me Myself Back to my username

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    He is so off, if he saw "on" he would either fight it or run.
     
  13. Vrindavana Das

    Vrindavana Das Active Member

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    Although it seems outdated, these are the injunctions of scriptures. As a Gaudiya Vaishnava, I am sure you would agree that Scriptures are true for all times. We do not follow their teachings because it is not practical in today's world. Nonetheless, the teachings are correct.

    I do not know whom you are referring to a 'MORON' here. If he has the authority in Bhakti, I think he knows more on the subject than most of us here.

    I am afraid, seems you do not know the traditions of India well. Vaishanava tilaka has been worn by women, even before Swami Prabhupada took Krishna Consiciousness to the west. In other traditions also, women wear tilaka of their discipline.

    It is unheard of even in ISKCON from what I know and looks more like a figment of your imagination. Can you provide the details of the place and website link?

    This again is your brainchild. Please provide the link to website where there are female pujarins.

    :facepalm:
     
  14. Gaura Priya

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    One person called a guru whom I revere, a moron, and so I have retorted towards this person inimical to ISKCON.

    Gaudiya Vaishnavism is the only sect that seems to encourage women to wear the urdhva paundra tilaka (U-shaped tilaka); Sri Vaishnavism, Madhvite Vaishnavism, Hamsa Vaishnavism, even Ekasarana Dharma does not feature women with the same urdhva-paundra tilaka worn by men.

    In the early days, you'll see women wearing saffron, even though there is no ashrama for them specifically. Srila Prabhupada did it for the protection of the women back then. Women who wear or have worn saffron have renounced, and there is a few that I've met who do wear saffron, such as Mother Radhika, and others (one other woman who has a daughter, of whose name I've forgotten... I think, Mother Malati devi dasi). Sannyasini does not have to be through one's robe, but one can be fully renounced also at heart.

    MY TEMPLE!! Come to ISKCON Vancouver in British Columbia, Canada, visit the Sri Sri Radha-Madan-Mohan Deities, and you'll see women on the altar, such as the wife (Mother Dvaraka) of one of the temple presidents, and a few other more elderly women.

    Women serve on the altar here, and Srila Prabhupada has given both women and men a chance in the West to serve the Deities.
     
    #14 Gaura Priya, Oct 2, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2012
  15. MochaRadha

    MochaRadha Member

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    iskcon teaches that women should be submissive doesnt it
     
  16. Vrindavana Das

    Vrindavana Das Active Member

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    Is that not an offense, as taught in Gaudiya Vaishnavism?

    Gaudiya Vaishnavism is what you are referring to as Madhvite Vaishnavism.

    For the remaining three Vaishnava schools, there is no restriction on women wearing tilaka.

    Here is an excerpt from Sri Vaishnavism on the same:

    The Acharya after pujas and homam will perform the Panchasamskara. The Acharya also explains the practice for Sharanagathi.

    This process is a means of purification and can be done to anyone irresepective caste, creed or sex. There are five purificatory ceremonies which one should undergo in this process to become a Srivaishnavan :

    a). Getting embossed the impressions of conch(Sanka) and Wheel(Chakra) on the arms by an Acharya.
    b). Wearing twelve SriVaishnava marks on the body reciting appropriate names of the Lord as taught by an Acharya
    c). Adding 'Dasa' to his name in token of his subordination to Sri Ramanuja
    d). Learning from the Acharya, the three mantras - Astakshara, Dvaya and Charma Sloka with their invocatory slokas and meaning.
    e). Learning the Aradhana or the guidelines to worship of Lord.

    f). Practicising devotional life as ordained by sat-AchArya.


    You can find this here: Daily routines of a Sri Vaishnava

    From the POV of protection of women, it is understandable. However, there is no concept of a 'sanyāsin' or a concept of an ashrama for brahmachārinis in Gaudiyā Vaishnavism (including ISKCON).

    If Srilā Prabhupāda has given the right to women to do Puja, then it is acceptable and correct process for ISKCON devotees. I will not dispute that. Women would be doing pujā on altar only during the period when they are 'clean' - not undergoing their menstrual cycle. This is my understanding.
     
  17. Onkara

    Onkara Well-Known Member

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    Namaste Vrindavana Das
    I have a quick question. How do women you know, view and feel about the differences in the religious practice, between themselves and the men?
     
  18. Vrindavana Das

    Vrindavana Das Active Member

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    Namaste Onkara,

    The women-folk that I know, who are part of Bhakti - Devotional movement, are quite ecstatic following the various devotional practices.

    There are 64 limbs of devotional service. Out of this 9 are considered the highest. Of these, 5 are the top-most.

    The 9 devotional practices are as under:

    śrī-prahrāda uvāca
    śravaṇaḿ kīrtanaḿ viṣṇoḥ
    smaraṇaḿ pāda-sevanam
    arcanaḿ vandanaḿ dāsyaḿ
    sakhyam ātma-nivedanam
    iti puḿsārpitā viṣṇau
    bhaktiś cen nava-lakṣaṇā
    kriyeta bhagavaty addhā
    tan manye 'dhītam uttamam​

    Prahlāda Mahārāja said: Hearing and chanting about the transcendental holy name, form, qualities, paraphernalia and pastimes of Lord Viṣṇu, remembering them, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, offering the Lord respectful worship with sixteen types of paraphernalia, offering prayers to the Lord, becoming His servant, considering the Lord one's best friend, and surrendering everything unto Him (in other words, serving Him with the body, mind and words) — these nine processes are accepted as pure devotional service. One who has dedicated his life to the service of Kṛṣṇa through these nine methods should be understood to be the most learned person, for he has acquired complete knowledge. [S.B. 7.5.23-24]

    So you see, typically, with the exception of offering worship - 'pujā', devotional practices for men and women are same. :)
     
  19. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Veteran Member
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    ***Staff Advisory***

    This thread has been moved to the Same-Faith Debates forum per Staff consensus.
     
  20. Surya Deva

    Surya Deva Well-Known Member

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    If you look up the status of women in Hinduism and Indian society in general historically, you will find it not to be perfect equality, but you will find generally that women have far more freedom than other societies in the world. It is of course to be expected in premodern that gender roles were strongly defined and prescribed in society, because of course somebody had to take on the role of houseworker and somebody had to be the breadwinner, and obviously the man took on this role due to their natural inherent biological characteristics like strength and aggression. However, this does not mean that women were inferior, it just meant they took on a different role. It has been custom in Hindu society for the woman to be seen as the guardian of the household, pillar and bringers of wealth and prosperity. The man would give her his earnings, entrusting her the responsibility in how to spend the money to keep the household going.

    However, not all women historically in Hindu and Indian society at large were expected to be housewives. In fact women hold the highest rank that is possible in Hindu religion the status of guru or rishi. About 30 of the sages which contributed to the Vedas, were women Rishis. Women Rishis were afforded a lot of respect in Vedic times, as can be seen with Maitrayi and Gargi who could formally participate in Vedic ceremonies and debate in Vedic debates. This tradition in fact continues up to Shankara where in a decisive debate with the Mimassa scholar/giant Mishara, the judge of the debate is his own wife.

    In fact it is fairly clear that the woman holds an important position in Hindu society because the women is worshiped as divine mother. Goddess worship has been a part of Indian society for a very long time, as far as Vedic times. The woman is worshiped in all her forms as beauty and wealth(Lakshmi) as intelligence, inspiration, music and art(Saraswati) as vengeful and powerful(Kali/Durga) and she has been given the position of being the power of God. This is why in Hindu iconography God is always represented with his consort in loving embrace.

    In the Arthashastras, which details formal policies of some of the kingdoms in ancient India, many rights are afforded to the woman such as the right to divorce and alimony, the right to work and serve in the army and the system of punishment for time for the woman is less punititve than equally committed by a man.

    The Manusmriti, which is one dharmashastra among many also contains a mix of ideas on women, some rather misogynistic while some actually praise and glorify her. It is unknown whether the Manusmriti was practiced as a code of laws in Indian society, for it is just one among many dharmashastras.

    The feminist movement in the West was actually partly inspired by Hinduism itself.
     
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