[Hindu Only] Simple argument against Advaita

[Aupmanyav]

There is no belief in Advaita that this is the only universe. A playwright can write multiple plays can he not?

Yeah, 'advaita' has no problem with "multi-verse" theory. Maya plays innumerable games and that it is beginningless, because of and eternal or co-eval with Brahman.

Terese, here is the edit, some unorthodox thinking, if you are up to it. Is Brahman eternal or not? What happens at the time of 'Pralaya'? Everything folds back. No space, no energy, no nothings. Brahman too - that is the question? What remains then? Only the potentiality in 'absolute nothing'. Have a laugh.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

OK, I see your point about Maya being beginingless and must agree. I think the confusion was I am saying and still saying that our universe has a beginning and an end but Maya (Brahman's ability to create a web of myth) is beginingless. What are people's thoughts on this.

Do you have a collective term that includes multiple universes?

As far as I know, the sanskrit word Jagat means universe, as in a single universe. That is, it is a catch-all container that includes pretty much everything in time and space. I have not come across a different meaning in any Advaita literature. We do have the sanskrit word loka which can translate to world, planet, realm, etc. Multiple lokas can coexist, but they are all contained within a single Jagat.

Again, this is my understanding. It is possible that I am not aware of a different multi-jagat paradigm.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Shiva, if the Brahman causes the seeming creation 'multi-verses', it can cause the seeming creation of 'multi-jagats' as well. Have a laugh.
But yes, One 'jagat' (what is perceived when awake, jagati) can include many lokas.

 

[George-ananda]

Do you have a collective term that includes multiple universes?

As far as I know, the sanskrit word Jagat means universe, as in a single universe. That is, it is a catch-all container that includes pretty much everything in time and space. I have not come across a different meaning in any Advaita literature. We do have the sanskrit word loka which can translate to world, planet, realm, etc. Multiple lokas can coexist, but they are all contained within a single Jagat.

Again, this is my understanding. It is possible that I am not aware of a different multi-jagat paradigm.

I got this from the Advaita Vision website: Cause of Creation

In pralaya, when the universe goes into its �Big Crunch� prior to a new �Big Bang�, the entire set of individual �causal bodies� is held in causal form (vaishvAnara) so as to maintain the continuity of individual karma-s.

So it appears there are multiple universes and not all jivas liberate in this universe.

 

[Terese]

I got this from the Advaita Vision website: Cause of Creation

In pralaya, when the universe goes into its �Big Crunch� prior to a new �Big Bang�, the entire set of individual �causal bodies� is held in causal form (vaishvAnara) so as to maintain the continuity of individual karma-s.

So it appears there are multiple universes and not all jivas liberate in this universe.

I've wondered about this. If there are infinite jivas, but eventually all jivas will be liberated, then there is a finite amount of jivas.

 

[George-ananda]

I've wondered about this. If there are infinite jivas, but eventually all jivas will be liberated, then there is a finite amount of jivas.

where did you learn that there are infinite jivas? I am thinking that it is still finite at any one time with jivas leaving the system (Moksha) and new jivas always forming too such that the process is endless. But I may have it wrong. I searched this question on the internet for some time and ended .

 

[Aupmanyav]

I got this from the Advaita Vision website: Cause of Creation

"In pralaya, when the universe goes into its �Big Crunch� prior to a new �Big Bang�, the entire set of individual �causal bodies� is held in causal form (vaishvAnara) so as to maintain the continuity of individual karma-s."

I've wondered about this. If there are infinite jivas, but eventually all jivas will be liberated, then there is a finite amount of jivas.

Goerge, I do not think Denis Waite is a true 'advaitist'. If he puts conditions to jivas, considers them separate from Brahman, then he is a 'vishishta' or some other type of 'advaitist'. IMHO, a true 'advaitist' will say like what Lord Krishna said in BG 2.16 "of the nonexistent there is no endurance and of the eternal there is no change."

Terese, infinite is not a quantity, it is a quality. When the numbers become too large to count, we term it as infinite like 1. the number of atoms in the universe - The visible universe is estimated to contain between 1x10 raised to power 78 and 1x10 raised to power 80 atoms, 2. the expanse of the universe - the distance to the edge of the observable universe is about 46 billion light years because the universe is expanding all of the time (the edges perhaps more than the speed of light). Now convert this in kilometers 9 x 1 trillion x 1 trillion x 46 billion kilometers = 414 x 10 raised to power 33 kilometers, etc.

 

[Terese]

Goerge, I do not think Denis Waite is a true 'advaitist'. If he puts conditions to jivas, considers them separate from Brahman, then he is a 'vishishta' or some other type of 'advaitist'. IMHO, a true 'advaitist' will say like what Lord Krishna said in BG 2.16 "of the nonexistent there is no endurance and of the eternal there is no change."

Terese, infinite is not a quantity, it is a quality. When the numbers become too large to count, we term it as infinite like 1. the number of atoms in the universe - The visible universe is estimated to contain between 1x10 raised to power 78 and 1x10 raised to power 80, 2. the expanse of the universe - the distance to the edge of the observable universe is about 46 billion light years because the universe is expanding all of the time (the edges perhaps more than the speed of light). Now convert this in kilometers 9 x 1 trillion x 1 trillion x 46 billion kilometers = 414 x 10 raised to power 33 kilometers, etc.

Oh, so there aren't actually an infinite number of jivas, just that the amount of jivas is innumerable?

where did you learn that there are infinite jivas? I am thinking that it is still finite at any one time with jivas leaving the system (Moksha) and new jivas always forming too such that the process is endless. But I may have it wrong. I searched this question on the internet for some time and ended .

Jivas don't form. The atma was never created, nor will it be destroyed.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Oh, so there aren't actually an infinite number of jivas, just that the amount of jivas is innumerable?

Well from a Vaishnav (Gaudiya) viewpoint, the number of Jivas are not infinite as per the conventional term, but rather constantly increasing, because they are constantly being manifest by the Lord's eternal energies and being bought into the material (or spiritual) worlds.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Jivas don't form. The atma was never created, nor will it be destroyed.

Sure, because each of them is none other than Brahman, even the non-living things and mass.

Adding to what I said in my last post: In terms of mass, there are currently about 75 billion tons of living things (biomass) on Earth. Please note that includes viruses and bacteria, who may weigh less than air, now count. And this is only on earth, there are some 80 billion galaxies each containing billions of stars and planets (for example, 100 billion suns in Milky Way galaxy itself), some of whom will certainly have life. That is how things becomes infinite.

All figures rough, but not pulled out of my ..., These are by Google searches. Brahman is mind-boggling, that is why Lord Buddha said do not try to understand it, "it will result in mental vexation and madness" (the 'achinteyya', imponderables or incomprehensible - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acinteyya#Four_imponderables).

 

[Terese]

Well from a Vaishnav (Gaudiya) viewpoint, the number of Jivas are not infinite as per the conventional term, but rather constantly increasing, because they are constantly being manifest by the Lord's eternal energies and being bought into the material (or spiritual) worlds.

But if they are constantly being manifest, then that means they have a beginning; Or do you have an explanation for this?

 

[निताइ dasa]

But if they are constantly being manifest, then that means they have a beginning; Or do you have an explanation for this?

Yes, I posted the answer earlier in the thread. We can only talk about beginning in the context of time, but the Jivas are manifest outside boundaries the plane of time (in the marginal area). Furthermore, the energies of Lord Hari from which are jiva is manifest, are themselves eternal. I will post that passage again:

"Vrajanatha: You said earlier that the cit world is eternal, and so are the jivas. If this is true, how can an eternal entity possibly be created, manifested or produced? If it is created at some point of time, it must have been non-existent before that, so how can we accept that it is eternal?

Babaji: The time and space that you experience in this material world are completely different from time and space in the spiritual world. Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided, eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present.

Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say "The jivas were created", "The spiritual world was manifested", or "There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas", material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jiva and spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world. Baba, be very careful in this matter. Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization."

 

[kalyan]

Yes, I posted the answer earlier in the thread. We can only talk about beginning in the context of time, but the Jivas are manifest outside boundaries the plane of time (in the marginal area). Furthermore, the energies of Lord Hari from which are jiva is manifest, are themselves eternal. I will post that passage again:

"Vrajanatha: You said earlier that the cit world is eternal, and so are the jivas. If this is true, how can an eternal entity possibly be created, manifested or produced? If it is created at some point of time, it must have been non-existent before that, so how can we accept that it is eternal?

Babaji: The time and space that you experience in this material world are completely different from time and space in the spiritual world. Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided, eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present.

Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say "The jivas were created", "The spiritual world was manifested", or "There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas", material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jiva and spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world. Baba, be very careful in this matter. Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization."

dat babaji is utter rubbish..

 

[kalyan]

Do you have a collective term that includes multiple universes?

As far as I know, the sanskrit word Jagat means universe, as in a single universe. That is, it is a catch-all container that includes pretty much everything in time and space. I have not come across a different meaning in any Advaita literature. We do have the sanskrit word loka which can translate to world, planet, realm, etc. Multiple lokas can coexist, but they are all contained within a single Jagat.

Again, this is my understanding. It is possible that I am not aware of a different multi-jagat paradigm.

Agree, there is no need for multiple jagat, brahmandas are many, it is said that chaturmukha brahma is the owner of this anda and many of these andas form a brahmanda where a 400 headed brahma is the owner and this goes on multiple levels

 

[Kapalika]

Shouldn't this be in the religious debate section or something?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Wherever, but the language used in replies should be civil. We can only request the members.

 

[kalyan]

Shouldn't this be in the religious debate section or something?

DIR is more active forum than almost inactive religious debates is what I feel, but I do not think this is a debate but more like asking for more info to connect the advaita dots

 

[kalyan]

Wherever, but the language used in replies should be civil. We can only request the members.

Can you be more sensitive and put a disclaimer at the end of each posts saying that these are my versions instead of trying to hijack advaita perhaps ?

 

[निताइ dasa]

dat babaji is utter rubbish..

Nice reasoning

Can you be more sensitive and put a disclaimer

You know Kalyanji, bhandarta (hypocrisy) is a very subtle fault, it creeps into the heart without one realizing it. "amanina manadena kirtaniya sada Harih" "Do not desire respect, but give respect to everyone", that is the qualification needed to chant the Holy Name

 

[kalyan]

OK, I see your point about Maya being beginingless and must agree. I think the confusion was I am saying and still saying that our universe has a beginning and an end but Maya (Brahman's ability to create a web of myth) is beginingless. What are people's thoughts on this.

According to Prakatarthakara, this cannot happen because the parts of Maya called avidya are infinite in number and so they can never be exhausted. So maya can never end, may be the sites which are mentioning this are mentioning about maya for the particular jiva which is his avidya samskaara which can be destroyed by study of vedanta. I wonder what Shankara said about the maya having an end.